I don't care what people say, women DO NOT like masculine men

[EternalForest]

I'm going to reply to everyone at once. (Everyone does not have to reply back but if you have something to advance the conversation with, I'd love to hear it :D)

@aurum Then why does everyone say that men and women aren't that different? The conventional wisdom contradicts itself.

@Kid A Regarding the media, I agree that it's fucked how much airtime the worst of society gets. It gives sickos the idea that they might get on the nightly news and it's horrible and needs to stop, unless there's an active crisis and the public needs updates. Regarding topics, yes, obviously men and women aren't into the same topics in general. If you care about someone though, I always thought that you take at least somewhat of an interest in what they care about.

@Schizophonia While I appreciate the Freudian psychology angle, here's the thing, I'm not unhappy at all. I have struggles in my life with this and outside of this sure, but on a personal basis, I'm happy with myself. I'm trying to use the forum as a springboard to figure out why women aren't happy with me. Saying you're not masculine unless you're completely honest about your pain implies that I'm intentionally suppressing something.

@Natasha Tori Maru If there was a way I could look at the world that would actually allow me to get a relationship, I'd want it. I feel like I'm too masculine for women to enjoy being around. It's not a social skills issue, because once again I have many male friends.

@Miguel1 You sound like a great wingman to have, very good intuition. Masculine energy by itself isn't attractive, it's the skillful combo of masculine and feminine energy, as you're describing. That's what wins.

@Leo Gura @Majed @Someone here I don't NEED a girlfriend but I can't deny it's a real void in my life. I feel like there was a point where I thought I was getting closer, and then the moment I slipped up, girls lost interest again. I don't want to be something I'm not, but it seems like the only want to get a girlfriend is to be able to read minds. "If by masculine you mean stoic, serious, unexpressive, unemotional, untalkative, and logical" Bingo, that's me... And honestly I'm nowhere near a Zen master but I do prefer spending my time doing more "serious" things, yet I still want a girlfriend to share my life with. It's a tough spot.

@AION @Hojo Times have certainly changed. I feel like I would've done better living in the 20th century.

@joeyi99 They're attracted to grounding energy from men they already trust, sure. But by default, women don't trust strange men they don't know yet.

@Salvijus @Sugarcoat Yes I absolutely Charlie-d out. That's how journals look! They're supposed to be messy and raw, for no one else's eyes. I rarely post mine and only posted that one to give more perspective on my issue.

@NewKidOnTheBlock Brainrot? Not really. The concept of the masculine and feminine (and literature about it) is a whole field of study on its own.

@UnbornTao Okay, what about Punisher?

@Hardkill I mean masculine in the unattractive sense, not the attractive one. Like Leo said, "If by masculine you mean stoic, serious, unexpressive, unemotional, untalkative, and logical". I want to be bold and start cold approach this Winter, do one of those experiments like you see on YouTube. "I asked 100 girls on a date" That would be fun.

@XXXXXX Don't know how many approaches but the number is very small. I've only been on one date in my life and it was back in high school. Looking back, it might have only been a "date" to me, not to her lol. So that makes (maybe?) 1 girlfriend in my life. I've had a couple long term relationships with women online over the years but ultimately they're thousands of miles away from me so they could only grow so much without the physical element. I'm also a virgin if that isn't already obvious

@Tenebroso The women into guys that like are not the women you'd want around you anyways. But I get it, it can feel demoralizing when you feel like they have a better shot at a date than you. It's because they're exposed to hundreds and thousands of women, and there's always going to be a few women with a screw loose. In contrast, you're exposed to way less, even if you're a better guy.

@Emerald All I want is kindness and love from girls. That's it. Where does maturity or humanity come into this? Like Leo said, I don't think you'd call a Zen master "immature", but he could definitely have an underdeveloped feminine (I'm decades away from being a master of any kind, it's just an example). You speak as if the man relating to women desperately is his choice? That's the position he's in, like it or not, he can't change it so might as well own it. I wish I had more women in my life or was more feminine but I'm not right now. It is what it is. Regarding your example, I don't know, in a sense, it would be more dishonest for him to pretend like everything's A-okay with women. The bird stuff was interesting. From a guy's POV, there are few things a woman could do to make me more interested, like showing genuine interest in who I am and what I care about. I will agree though, the gender roles are pretty baked-in in that regard.

@Never_give_up @Spiral The grass is always greener... I wish I was in your position! Being a girl's guy would be awesome. I guess being too masculine or too feminine is equally bad though, I suppose.

[aurum]

3 hours ago, EternalForest said:

Then why does everyone say that men and women aren't that different? The conventional wisdom contradicts itself.

Because much of modern conventional wisdom is focused on deconstructing rigid, traditional gender roles from the past. It is a collective stage of development.

I’m pointing you towards a deeper synthesis of both.

[Jodistrict]

I think that forming a narrative that women don’t like masculine men is going way off track.  It is more productive to carefully observe your interactions with women and note the feedback you are getting, to get clues on what is turning them off.   It’s not easy to do because we tend to be so caught up in our own reactivity.  This is the real awakening work.   Putting the blame outside of us feels better, but than nothing changes.  The old game just continues.  We are locked inside our identity.   For the record: women crave masculine energy.

[UnbornTao]

Just now, Jodistrict said:

I think that forming a narrative that women don’t like masculine men is going way off track.  It is more productive to carefully observe your interactions with women and note the feedback you are getting, to get clues on what is turning them off.   It’s not easy to do because we tend to be so caught up in our own reactivity.  This is the real awakening work.   Putting the blame outside of us feels better, but than nothing changes.  The old game just continues.  We are locked inside our identity.

 

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, EternalForest said:

 

@Emerald All I want is kindness and love from girls. That's it. Where does maturity or humanity come into this? Like Leo said, I don't think you'd call a Zen master "immature", but he could definitely have an underdeveloped feminine (I'm decades away from being a master of any kind, it's just an example). You speak as if the man relating to women desperately is his choice? That's the position he's in, like it or not, he can't change it so might as well own it. I wish I had more women in my life or was more feminine but I'm not right now. It is what it is. Regarding your example, I don't know, in a sense, it would be more dishonest for him to pretend like everything's A-okay with women. The bird stuff was interesting. From a guy's POV, there are few things a woman could do to make me more interested, like showing genuine interest in who I am and what I care about. I will agree though, the gender roles are pretty baked-in in that regard.

It sounds more like an issue that you're either interacting with mean women... or you're not interacting with women at all.

My money is on the latter, given our conversation about only having male friends and acquaintances.

So, if 100% of women you're not related to are all strangers to you (not friends or acquaintances), they're going to behave in a cold and detached way towards you... just as you would have some coldness and detachment with a stranger.

It's the social contract and it's a boundaries thing. 

And while it's nice to have the idea that women you're a stranger to should just go out of their way to express kindness to you, that's just not realistic. It wouldn't even be safe for women to do that in many contexts. 

But to find kindness from a woman simply means interacting with women and makings friendships and acquaintances with women who are kind and mature. But you have to actually be acquainted. A kind woman is not going to go out of her way to share kindness with some random strangers... especially not one that wants something from her.

But love (in the romantic sense) isn't just something women give out. It doesn't work that way. Strangers also are definitely not going out of their way to love you... and no one is owed love from a stranger.

[EternalForest]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

It sounds more like an issue that you're either interacting with mean women... or you're not interacting with women at all.

My money is on the latter, given our conversation about only having male friends and acquaintances.

So, if 100% of women you're not related to are all strangers to you (not friends or acquaintances), they're going to behave in a cold and detached way towards you... just as you would have some coldness and detachment with a stranger.

It's the social contract and it's a boundaries thing. 

And while it's nice to have the idea that women you're a stranger to should just go out of their way to express kindness to you, that's just not realistic. It wouldn't even be safe for women to do that in many contexts. 

But to find kindness from a woman simply means interacting with women and makings friendships and acquaintances with women who are kind and mature. But you have to actually be acquainted. A kind woman is not going to go out of her way to share kindness with some random strangers... especially not one that wants something from her.

But love (in the romantic sense) isn't just something women give out. It doesn't work that way. Strangers also are definitely not going out of their way to love you... and no one is owed love from a stranger.

So do you honestly think the best approach when talking to a guy like me is to tell them:

- 100% of women are entitled to act cold and detached towards me

- There are drug dealers and gangsters that women feel safer with than me, someone who has never done drugs or committed a crime

- Women don't owe me anything supposedly and I don't owe women anything so we're at a standstill forever

How do you think that advice is going to help me grow or improve my mindstate?

Not at all.

All it's going to do is dehumanize me, belittle me, invalidate my experiences, and subtly imply that I'm entitled for even EXPECTING to make connections with women, which is absurd.

Where's the empathy?

Edited 2 hours ago by EternalForest

[EternalForest]

5 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

I think that forming a narrative that women don’t like masculine men is going way off track.  It is more productive to carefully observe your interactions with women and note the feedback you are getting, to get clues on what is turning them off.   It’s not easy to do because we tend to be so caught up in our own reactivity.  This is the real awakening work.   Putting the blame outside of us feels better, but than nothing changes.  The old game just continues.  We are locked inside our identity.   For the record: women crave masculine energy.

If you read back on the thread, I already acknowledged that I agree, they like clean masculine energy packaged in a way they find attractive. They don't like raw masculine energy

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

So do you honestly think the best approach when talking to a guy like me is to tell them:

- 100% of women are entitled to act cold and detached towards me

- There are drug dealers and gangsters that women feel safer with than me, someone who has never done drugs or committed a crime

- Women don't owe me anything supposedly and I don't owe women anything so we're at a standstill forever

How do you think that advice is going to help me grow or improve my mindstate?

Not at all.

All it's going to do is dehumanize me, belittle me, invalidate my experiences, and subtly imply that I'm entitled for even EXPECTING to make connections with women, which is absurd.

Where's the empathy?

You're clearly not hearing what I'm actually saying... and you're misrepresenting what I'm telling you. Go back and re-read by post and you will see that I'm not dehumanizing you or telling you any of those things you're implying.

What I'm saying is that, if you don't have any female acquaintances or friends, that effectively means that ALL women who aren't related to you are strangers to you and that you are a stranger to them.

And you told me before that you have zero female friends and acquaintances. That is how I know that to be the case.

So, it's not logical or reasonable to expect to randomly receive some kind of charitable acts of kindness and love from strangers, as that's not how human beings operate... especially not with romantic love.

So, don't expect women to give you romantic love out of a sense of charity.

You also don't go out of your way to charitably give romantic love and kindness to strangers, I'd wager.

If you want kindness from women, go make friends and/or acquaintances with kind women. And you can count on kind women who are your friends and acquaintances to be cordial and kind to you.

If you want romantic love from a woman, go interact with a bunch of women and become acquainted with them... and eventually someone in that group will be interested in having a romantic relationship with you.

You can't just expect women who you don't personally know to go out of their way to interact with you, give you kindness, and give you love.

Female strangers simply are not going to save you from this problem. It's a problem that you are responsible for solving.

Also, women generally aren't in the same standstill as you are. So, you're asking women to solve a problem that isn't a problem for them. Plenty of men are interacting with women, making acquaintances with women, and being friends with women.

And women are going to be interested in those men who they actually know and are having some kind of interaction with.

So, the standstill is a you problem that you must solve... and you do that by acquainting yourself with women and interacting with them.

But there seems to be a fear and a block to making the acquaintance of women. You'll have to discover the root of that block.

Edited 1 hour ago by Emerald

[Natasha Tori Maru]

6 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

I think that forming a narrative that women don’t like masculine men is going way off track.  It is more productive to carefully observe your interactions with women and note the feedback you are getting, to get clues on what is turning them off.   It’s not easy to do because we tend to be so caught up in our own reactivity.  This is the real awakening work.   Putting the blame outside of us feels better, but than nothing changes.  The old game just continues.  We are locked inside our identity.   For the record: women crave masculine energy.

This.

There is cognitive bias in OP's thinking. Resulting in a belief, but not truth.

[EternalForest]

@Emerald "don't expect women to give you romantic love out of a sense of charity". Relationships aren't a charity, but if everyone thought this way, there would be no relationships because no one would give anyone else a chance.

"you're asking women to solve a problem that isn't a problem for them" - It's called empathy, the same reason why men can have empathy for women deciding whether or not to get an abortion even though they don't give birth

Respectfully, I'm not finding our exchanges to be very productive. I can't make friends with women because outside of a few girls from school who I don't talk to outside of school, and a few girls I met on reddit over the years, women do not like me.

You refuse to acknowledge my perspective or my pain. You twist my longing for love into entitlement and you use my isolation with women as a way to reinforce the idea that I'm a stranger to all women and I probably make them feel unsafe. Which is only going to make me want to isolate further. And yes, I do go out of my way to try to help others, but not in this area of life, because my romantic love is unwanted.

Unless you have some specific advice to help or some empathy for men, I'd prefer to end the verbal sparring now, because its honestly stressing me out. Goodnight.