UnbornTao

@zurew I don't know whether that's true or not. A Zen monastery is probably the least BS, most straightforward environment you could participate in. And yet that still gets easily corrupted by dogma and ritual even though the spirit of Zen is direct consciousness. What you're talking about sounds like an ideal or something like that. will probably add more tomorrow, it's 4:00Am lol

Blaming a newly imagined cause. Extrapolating about what would result. Whatever works for you. I doubt people would suddenly turn crazy or depressed, or that they would experience not-knowing. They would probably have less beliefs clouding their perception. Actually they mayt free themselves from old presumptions and so be able to ask questions. We could start our own religion. Free bread and unconditional love for everyone!

I don't think there are steps as in a sequence. You do it. Deeply want to know and wonder about stuff. Contemplate. Hold a question and intent to discover what's true. I'm a solitary type but I don't know about that. Fair enough.

The capacity to accomplish something

Pay attention to the following dynamic: knowledge may create ignorance. Beliefs are conflated with knowledge and so it is assumed that what we think of reality is true. The more beliefs you adopt the more you'll think you'll understand. This limits your perspective. Similar to a closed circuit or self-referential loop, assumptions masquerade and restricts the possibility of knowing (becoming aware of) what something is for itself. This will prevent the openness necessary to confront the actual condition of not-knowing. Knowledge (belief) can bind you to ignorance without you realizing it. The solution is to eliminate and transcend beliefs. Recognize that you don't know and abide in that state. From that, wonder emerges and discovery becomes a possibility.

Don't fill in the blanks with something I haven't said or turn it around to fit your argument. You're the one who is arguing for the need for religion. I don't care about that. You do whatever you want. Ultimately that's what each of us does. Make sure it is empowering for you and others. If consciousness is what you want, consciousness is what you need. That's what I'm saying. Beliefs seem to stand in the way of that. On the other hand, beliefs that benefit your view of you, others and your life can be enjoyed as tools and don't necessarily need to be discarded right away, if you don't want to. Becoming conscious is ultimately a matter of personal responsibility and not of standing behind circumstances. As I was walking my dog one random night, I experienced "no-self" and I was anxious and overwhelmed that day before it happened, so what? External factors are what they are. Your consciousness isn't determined by those. Own your enlightenments and take care of yourself. The rest may be secondary. Ask: What do religions ultimately provide me with? In terms of personal understanding, what have I achieved by believing in what I've been told? What have I become conscious of by following doctrines, performing rituals, or even by having a supportive environment with like-minded believers? What effects do beliefs have on my experience? When all is said and done, belief doesn't change the fact that in your experience you still don't know anything. You just added at best some conceptual knowledge on top of your "knowledge" mountain. Ignorance (beliefs) masquerades as understanding. How come contemplators are generally portrayed as solitary types?

@Danioover9000 @Carl-Richard You're standing on a bunch of intellectual stuff. Beliefs can be held either as mindlessly adopted ideas of which you're unwilling to question or as effective tools that empower you, others and your relationship to life. Don't confuse them with the truth. In the end, it doesn't matter what you believe but what you do and whether you know who you are.

If you guys are mature and specially if the relationship is long-term, you shouldn't be worried about openly displaying your emotions and communicating your feelings. Probably not if you've known each other for just a short period of time. Why would you want to hide your emotions in an intimate relationship? Sounds counterintuitive. The point is being able to share your life with another, and being committed to each other's well-being.

They don't need to. What you mean is that they want to. Again, there might be beneficial aspects of religion especially in the social domain. Why the need to belief? What do you get by believing? Even if you believed that the earth was round, that would still not be an experience of the truth! When it comes to existential matters, this difference is more abysmal. Believing is fine but at some point you've got to grow up if you want the truth, which transcends belief. What do you grasp? Who are you? What are you? What is other? What are emotions? What is existence, life, etc? Be honest and learn to tolerate the fact that you deeply don't know, and stay there. That's a powerful place to question from.

@Carl-Richard You may not be grasping what belief is and what it does to your experience. Without direct experience, belief is likely one of the only things you've got! Notice the significance of this. No culture is based on direct personal consciousness. Having beliefs isn't a negative or positive, thing. They can certainly empower you in how you perceive and conceive of yourself, others and your life. Whether they can contribute positively to your ontology work depends on the way in which you hold them: as tools or as programmed dogma. Whatever's absolutely true must be true now, no matter the circumstances. A conducive environment is clearly useful although care should be taken not to play the victim and react against circumstances as if they were a determining factor. Circumstances are what they are. Contemplation can happen while one is stressed, lonely, bored, blissful or hungry. You don't need religion for that. Listen to the video I shared. Religion can foster feelings of belonging, is a great way for a collective to advance towards the same goal, etc. These are useful social aspects. New age is irrelevant to me in this discussion. Don't jump to conclusions, I'm not talking from that standpoint. To me, you sound like you want something to believe in. Could that be true? Why the need to believe?

Well, you do it. Pay attention to how you may be avoiding parts of your experience. You just allow yourself to fully feel and experience without reacting nor suppressing.

See what you're doing with your experience: accepting it as it is allows for deeper calm and relaxation. Practice this. Deeply accept your experience. This can help a lot. Breathe slowly and deeply, be in your body, and enjoy life!

― Steven Weinberg. Don't know about that. Religion can be beneficial in certain aspects like the ones you mention. However, value is determined by you and is relative. Whatever's true must be prior to meaning, value and worth. These are activities one does. We may as well contemplate religion, value and belief. Is your concern about consciousness or about social stuff? Are you trying to fit consciousness into a model of how things should be, or maybe into an ideal? It turns out that environment and circumstances are secondary or irrelevant to consciousness. Ramana sat endlessly in a cave while insects ate away his legs. Nothing fancy, and yet he's deeply conscious. Becoming a contemplator and not a follower is what I'm advocating. Following seems to imply belief. In terms of concepts, if they come from someone skillful, it could be held as a possibility and not as hearsay that requires blind faith. This could be the heart of the issue: religion is about the faith part and stops there. By nature, it doesn't encourage direct experience. That's not its focus. Questioning reveals religion as unnecessary in this context. As an aside, I'm curious as to how the distinction spirituality is created in one's experience in the first place. If I'm honest, I see no need for referencing that concept, which is vague and abstract. That makes it suitable/liable (?) to mischief such as fantasizing about it. Finer distinctions grounded on experience are more effective and real. I prefer talking in terms of contemplation, questioning, insight, observing, etc. instead of spirituality.

@MisterNobody @Leo Gura careful or you'll both be banned.