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If you are to know then know this. It's not that you should stop asking questions when there are still questions to ask. But to speed up the process of self-realization you just have to be that process of self-realization. Instead of seeking the right path up the mountain, stopping at every turn to contemplate which way to go, take a seat mentally and listen to the birds on winds of mind. In every moment of your every day the answers that lie between you and You are presenting themselves when you point your conscious attention the right way. What is the right way but the way that begs your attention? What keeps causing you unrest is naturally what bothers, moves, drains you the most, and when you embody stillness it is what is naturally drawing your attention out of meditation. Be honest with yourself as you inquire into what is going on, why you are caught up in whatever you are caught up in doing whatever you are doing contemplating whatever you are contemplating. Self-inquiry is crucial for finding one's way back through the maze of mind as it was self-deception that caused one to get lost in the first place, but as it is part of the self-same structure that attempts to keep itself alive by perpetuating itself it can easily lead one further astray. I am amazing at deceiving myself so better listen for signs. Some times I may believe that something is something it is not, and so I fool myself and suffer by going in circles or separating myself further from the truth into wider, wilder circles. If you recognize non-duality, although you may not have realized its depth(and isnt there always more to discover ?), then you realize. in some way, that the world as you experience it is one side of the coin of I. Letting go of those things that doesnt really matter and solving those that do is a form of re-allignment of the self. If truth is one that is nothingness then you are as of now truth hiding from itself in itself by itself. You are that you are looking for. In a way it does not matter where you look, but if you are to look in a certain way, be it with honest eyes, stillness of mind and purity of heart. It is a process of letting go. You are not climbing a mountain as much as returning to your resting position, holding on to whatever you cannot let go of on your way down until you are ready to let it go. Let go of anything and it returns to rest after having carried out whatever energy was put into it. As of now you are holding on to something keeping you stuck till you figure out what you need to figure out on this part of the journey. Depending on who you are, you may believe to find most use of either self-inquiry or surrender. One is primarily masculine energy the other feminine energy, but really they are one, and choosing one over the other leaves out half the fun. Secondly, if the 'problem' that keeps you in unrest is that you are separated from your authentic self, from truth, then how can you know that you are not fooling yourself into chasing down the wrong road? By listening to whatever presents itself and inquiring upon it you can unriddle yourself of your unrest and become one with truth once again. As soon as you start picking sides, you always leave something out, and ignoring certain parts of I that keeps calling for your attention is what separates you from truth. Any road is the way, so if this sounds like gibberish just toss it out the window. If something sounds like bullshit it probably is, and if you are on a nice flow in a direction that feels right, then don't let this alter your course. It is easy to get stuck believing in fancy words just because they sound fancy. Or discard wisdom by its strange appearance. Some times truth hits like lightning from a clear blue sky. Or it can be building up like a storm for a period of time until the pressure is released. Trying to single out a lightning in a storm shelters your attention from all the rest, and believing there are no lightning to be found when the sky is clear shelters you from the possibility of it arising. While you are busy taking notes on what the teacher is preaching at the board, the truth is smiling at you from across the room. While you are looking down at your phone on public transportation truth flys by the window but you are too preoccupied to notice it, let alone catch it. If you can embody stillness in action and search without searching then you are already there. If you believe truth to be found in some specific places and not to be in certain others, then try to be attentive to the road and look for signs of going in circles.

Thanks for your info, feeling much more calmer now. I have had ego dissolutions before (one on 5-meo-dmt and one on lsd), but the dissolution came in naturally and without friction, there were no negative emotions, just peace and nothingness, and plain awareness of it. So yeah, yesterday took me by surprise. I am glad it happened tho, I needed this scare.

When I was done dying, my conscience regained So I began my struggle, a nothingness strained Out a flash made of time, my new form blasted out And it startled me so and I burst out a shout At which my legs ran frantic like birds from a nest And I ran until drained, leaving no choice but rest So I fell asleep softly at the edge of a cave But I should have gone in deeper but I'm not so brave And like that I was torn out and thrown in the sky And I said all my prayers because surely I'll die As I crashed down and smashed into earth, into dirt How my skin did explode, leaving only my shirt But from shirt grew a tree and then tree grew a fruit And I became the seed and that seed was a brute And I clawed through the ground with my roots and my leaves And I tore up the shirt and I ate up the sleeves And they laughed out at me and said "what is your plan?" But their question was foreign, I could not understand When then suddenly I'm ripped up and placed into a mouth And it swallowed me down at which time I head south I said hey ya ya hey ya ya hey ya ya hey ya ya hey ya ya Well I woke up to see them, these two mighty steeds With their mouths grinning wildly expressing my needs As they stood there above me, being flanked on each side I felt no need to fear them, no reason to hide So I reached up to touch but they faded too soon Yet their mouths still remained and stacked up towards the moon How that ladder of mouth waved so soft in the night And I looked up in awe at that beautiful sight And I dreamt about climbing into the night sky But I knew had I touched them they'd mouth back "Bye-bye" So I got up and walked down the path in the dark And there deep in the distance my eye caught a spark Of a crab twice my size with incredible strength Oh, it greeted me kindly and then we all drank And we drooled out together right onto the ground And the ocean grew up quickly right up all around And the earth looked at me and said "Wasn't that fun?" And I replied "I'm sorry if I hurt anyone" And without even thinking cast me into space But before she did that she wiped off my own face She said better luck next time don't worry so much Without ears I couldn't hear I could just feel the touch As I feel asleep softly at the edge of a cave But I should have gone deeper but I'm not so brave I said hey ya ya hey ya ya hey ya ya hey ya ya hey ya ya

@Samra that’s a very difficult question. how do they feel for you? maybe they just describe different relations you have to nothingness, voidness emptiness or however you want to call it. like the inuit have different words for white. if you look long enough you’ll see there is not much difference.

Can anything be separate of any other-thing? Can there be anything other? Can there be otherness but illusion itself behind is oneness? EDIT: I had talked somewhere in the forum about the point(S ,separate points) are merely an illusion of one point. It can even be described with mathematics and we can generate a function where we can iterate on illusion of points i.e. f(x) would yield you a Y where you can start building your points (y, x) and there recurse this function to itself to generate many infinite dimensions of points. actually at the bottom, there's only one point that has many illusions of itself. Now the thing is, when we have one dimension i.e length, i.e infinite many points, i.e 1 to 1000, or to inf, yes there exists many unique f(x) that would map x to y, and another g(x, y) that map (x, y) to z, etc etc... the question you might ask is how one would go backwards from one dimension to one singular point? Answer: simple, there exists a function that would always yield z(x) = 1 + a.x where a is not 0 but illusion. The illusion is the functions itself, functions as human thoughts. One point is being observed as to create illusions of many. F, G and many dimensions are just illusions that exists. EDIT: Oneness is when existence of illusion of A in z(x) = 1 + a.x discovered hence now whole reality collapses into nothingness a.k.a zero in math. If one takes illusions granted then there exists many A that will create the illusion of first dimension. There you can generate any OTHER thing.

I can't relate easily to nothingness. Void however I have experienced. Void is infinite and bottomless, and goes both ways. Void engulfs, but also is engulfed. I know I am made of voidness. Would you say void and nothingness are one and same thing?

@graded24 1) I-AM-ness is nothing. Which is why the mind cannot grasp it. Yes, I-AM-ness is awareness. Nothingness is self-aware. But don't think of awareness as a thing or a substance. It is nothing. The reason you struggle to get this is because you assume that nothing cannot be self-aware. This is a false assumption. 2) There is only one "substance" in reality, period. That substance is nothing. Everything is it. No exceptions. Everything is self-aware because it is nothing. The entire sponge is nothing. The sponge is not distinct from the empty space it occupies. This cannot really be conveyed by the analogy because it would require you to already have nondual awareness. You see the sponge as distinct from the empty space because you're looking at it dualistically. If you were awake, you'd realize the sponge is nothing, as are all physical objects. This does not mean that sponge disappears or changes shape or color. It just means that you realize that shapes and colors ARE nothing. 3) Again, you are making the mistake of thinking of nothing as the opposite of something. This is the ultimate duality. You're expecting nothing to be a blank -- the opposite of something. And it is that. But it is also all the non-blank stuff as well! Form and formlessness are actually identical. This won't make much sense without a deep awakening. You have to deeply question all dualities like: Something vs nothing Form vs formlessness Dual vs nondual Me vs you Inner vs outer God vs not-God Life vs death Existence vs non-existence Awareness vs non-awareness Material vs immaterial Mind vs body Self vs world Good vs bad Sentient vs non-sentient Life vs non-life Matter vs empty space All of those distinctions will ultimately collapse into unity if you question them deeply enough. Everything you've experienced in your entire life was nothing. It's like the entire universe never even happened. In the beginning, there was nothing. The end. It's like the universe was never even born. This is an utterly shocking realization which requires super-human levels of consciousness to realize. If you ever get this far, it's as though you broke all of existence. And then again, this is already true right this second in your experience. You just overlooking the obvious.

I feel like most people on the path to enlightenment are seeking the truth to achieve one main goal: end suffering. I respect that, happiness feels awesome, but, my main drive has always been understanding the nature of reality and consciousness, for curiosity's sake. Not just a mundane "i wonder if it will rain today" curiosity, but this big thing inside of me what wishes to solve the big mystery. If the path leads me to happiness, cool, its a welcome bonus. If understanding the truth means sacrificing my happiness, then by all means I am willing. I see no higher goal or price, and I have learned to embrace sadness as one of the many beautiful colors that paint my life. I've had many fascinating spiritual experiences with psychedelics, ranging from movie-like fantasy realms to black void nothingness, I keep getting insights every day, big or small, but each day feels like a step forward towards the endless path to truth.

Cos nothingness is really really funny. Remember when you used to laugh for no reason when you were a child? Like, everything was just hysterical? Same thing.

Yeah I see them as the same anyhow. But from the place of confusion, fear, that divided state of self, observation seems to be constantly based on reward/illusion which makes it always partial/limited. You know what I mean. Freedom that I refer too was in itself bliss/peace-nothingness/emptiness. It was a freedom without searching that was influenced by a reaction of lack of freedom. See what I mean?

@Jack River winter said it’s cool to substitute nothingness/emptiness for peace/bliss - so it’s the same context / concept he is pointing to. So, I’m considering his usage of peace/bliss to be synonymous with nothingness/stillness/emptiness in our conversation- unless he draws a new dinstinction

That’s why I prefer “nothingness/emptiness” over “bliss”. Seekers seem likely to associate bliss as satisfaction and trigger the self to chase. The self is unlikely to chase “nothing/empty”

"Peace" and "Bliss" are loaded terms for my self. Would it be ok to rephrase it as "If these thoughts are simply happening, as if automatically, in an atmosphere of total nothingness/stillness/emptiness, well, no problem."

@winterknight During meditation today, the mind became still and the self-inquiry question "What is Love?" arose. There was no analysis or thinking about what love is. Yet, there was also no nonverbal appearances of what Love is. The question just existed there in the stillness. It just sat there. Then it would dissolve into nothingness and reappear. Yet, nothing else related to Love appeared. Should there be attention effort to maintain the presence of the inquiry? Or is it ok if it dissolves and reappears? (When it dissolved, mental chatter was still low and off in the distance).

@EternalForest Thanks for the reply. Yes, knowing it really doesn’t change anything because you could believe that this is a simulation or a game or a movie or a dream or an illusion and still suffer. That is why we need direct experiences of non-duality, because then it truly has an impact. I could answer what you are looking when you see all those things you mentioned, but it will not satisfy you, sorry. (Just to not let you curious: you are not really looking at anything ( or, you are looking to nothingness) because there is nothing (not even people) there, all you are seeing is the projection of your mind created by yourself)

**Note that i do not definitively espouse any of these views outright or with any strong degree of certainty. I am merely presenting some good ideas, to be weighed against other good ideas and valid counterexamples. Strong convictions, held loosely, etc. **And I do not necessarily think any civilization necessarily needs to exist or be sustained and continued. Civilization itself may be a bad idea. Pure nothingness/ non-experience is just as well. But... if we are going to perpetuate our civilization, we might as well set things up strategically, and as optimally as possible. **Written kinda bullet-pointy, doesn't flow well. Take what you will from it. The fact that someone can work hard and strategically to increase their level of consciousness is wonderful. But the fact that someone can work hard and strategically to increase their bank account, despite their level of consciousness, is a travesty. And a recipe for a dysfunctional poopshow of a society. It's possible that how much money you get paid should be based solely on your spiral dynamics level. Not even on your contributions. Reward on the front end, before you make anything of value, without any expectation of having to make anything at all, ever. Now, from a certain perspective, this is actually reward on the back end, because talent and spiral-dynamics-level (or "midichlorian count") is soul labor already accomplished, crystallized and calcified into the soul. And maybe a more nuanced and pragmatic model would be to use level of consciousness as a primary determining factor of monetary income, with some other factors weighed in as well. One could argue that the reason Anakin Skywalker went off the rails is mostly because he was forced to trudge through the archaic conventions of people dumber and less advanced than him, who wouldn't let him use his power until he satisfied their dumb criteria. If he had just been given an open platform to express himself, commensurate with his innate, inborn level of ability (his "midichlorian count"), then no frustration would have arisen, and he would have remained a force for benevolence. Of course it's just a movie, but a decent example nonetheless. One problem with this model is, lower spiral dynamics level players will not permit this, and will do everything in their power to prevent it. And another problem is... who would implement and maintain and enforce the model? Well, those with the highest levels of consciousness, of course. In the same way that the current financial system was a lot of work to create, but has nearly unstoppable momentum.... this new model will be a lot of work to implement, but once up and running, very stable over time, and resilient to perturbation. Perhaps only implementable through enlightened dictatorship, or a team acting in that capacity. Leo brings up some great points about value creation in this blog video. The major problem I have is: Our economic system only rewards innovation within a category. It doesn't reward innovations on the category, which are of course FAR MORE VALUABLE. Our system only rewards solutions which are "a little new". Only mildly innovative. Take cars for example. Sure, you can make millions with a new type of car or a flying car. Or with a little nicknack which makes moving a piano easier. Or with "revolutionary" software or hardware for an airplane. But let's be real: A car, even the best Lamborghini or Tesla or Apple vehicle, is a primitive little metal cockroach with round rubber shoes. Absolutely ridiculous Flintstones nonsense to anyone with half a noodle. Now I love cars as much as the next guy, but let's put it in it's proper place: recreation and hobby, and not our primary means of transportation. And Antigravity is not just some overly-specific example. It's a cornerstone of a functional society. Real innovation makes existing industries obsolete. This is, of course, a problem for the collective ego we call an economy, which feels a need to survive as such. Real innovation cuts to the core, and fast. What passes for innovation in our economy is shallow and frivolous, and slow. Real innovations bring non-dual solutions, which obsolete the need for an economy at all. I'm talking about nothing less than... real innovation reprograms the universe and reverses entropy, such that nobody is a leaky-bucket energy system with unmet needs. An economy presupposes unmet needs. Real innovation takes us to a place where there is no such thing. True innovation obsoletes the need for "careers". The notion of a career is substrated by lack and undesirable circumstances. By wanting to be over there in that other better situation, and needing to do something over a time period to get to there. That's what a career is: a vehicle which transports you from "meh" to "yay". However, when we pass a threshold of yay-ness, which we are currently in the process of doing now, the opportunity arises to raise the floor from meh to yay. And by yay, i mean nothing less than: instant manifestation of anything. Even a magic genie is unsatisfactory and too slow. The very desiring of something must manifest the thing. And if it doesnt, then the "CAREERS" which make the most money should be those which are geared towards bringing that new state of affairs into existence. Also, note that: The greatest minds are ON FIRE in many different fields. Regardless of who came up with them, the best ideas deserve to be implemented. That's not what our economy facilitates. Buckling down on only one thing is inefficient for some minds and personality types. Those wild Leonardo da Vinci types, should be given CEO status on the merit of their spirit alone, not on their results. Then, the results will come 100x. The highest paid musicians should be the ones who write the best riffs and songs. Period. Regardless of work ethic, or networking prowess, or career strategy. No architect should be able to fashion a strong career unless they are visionaries. Period. Money is currently blind, but that is a tragedy. Money should be blind to the lower spiral-dynamics levels, and heavily favor the higher spiral-dynamics levels. Money = power over others, as Leo pointed out. But, the only people who deserve to have power over others are those with dank-ass brains and nuanced perspectives and benevolent souls. Ability to "monetize" those proclivities should be irrelevant. The midichlorian count alone (the level of consciousness) should bring in the paycheck. Those most capable of contributing should be the most supported, without having to interrupt their creative and productive process to go and procure the support. That interruption causes inefficiency and kinks the flow, and therefore fucks us all. Society works better this way, and we all win, cuz better shit gets made. Everyone should get a paycheck NO matter what, and that paycheck should be proportionate to your level of wisdom and soul-growth. The only way to get more money or freedom is to get wiser and better. Not by producing results. When you increase your wisdom and skill, and get rewarded for that, you'll be naturally compelled to create great works. Reward on the front end, product on the back end. Escaping wage-slavery, vs. ENDing it. Winning at musical chairs, vs. creating a better game entirely. In the meantime, our musical chairs game must move towards favoring those who are creating that new game. Not going to happen anytime soon, so act from where you are. (We must be pragmatic... Those in power aren't going to simply hand over their power just because they "should". I probably wouldn't, and you probably wouldn't.). But it's something to strive towards. Ask yourself... Are your life choices and lifestyle moving us towards this new game? And, insofar as you attempt to win at the current game (by all means, go for it!)... is your style of playing conducive to a healthy transition to the new paradigm, or is it reinforcing the old?

@Serotoninluvwow yes I believe it...you say you had ego death in your first trip? No self came after the psychedelic experience for me Maybe this is why I didn’t see more to be better... heres a funny analogy... Taking psychedelics is like going over to the “dark side”: “total dark” yet “very powerful”. Facing yourself is the Jedi way: “using the force” “destroying evil”. In the end “oneness” “nothingness”

Sorry, I realize that this was not the kind of advise that you were looking for you just wanted some quick advise on how to initiate interactions or smth and we give you this spiritual stuff :D:D But do you really want an advise like that? I can give you some if you want. Be confident, speak laudly, smile, know what you want to talk about, keep eye contact. But is this really the kind of advise you're looking for? it's not gonna solve much I think To be honest I'd recommend you to try something from sadhguru. Either yoga or kriya or something. There're many things that he offers. Especially because his beginning programs are highly focused for things that you're talking about. Good life. Happyness. Easy living. Joy. Love. Friends. Health. Energy. Adventurous life. It's made like this on purpose. That you satisfy your basic needs and then the other programs are then about nothingness and shiva and enlightenment and stuff. You said you're looking for those things. Sadhguru would be helpful to you. Other meditations like self-enquiry or vippassana doesn't care about your happyness. It's goes straight to the enlightenment. But you say you don't care about it. So I think sadhguru would be what you're looking for.

Just a few questions I had after the video. Primarily for Leo but if u have an actually intelligent answer I’ll welcome it What’s there when no one is looking? Myself I had the intuition that infinite intelligence simulates everything so that it looks like there is an objective world. Why do we appear to live in a shared world? Again I intuited an infinite intelligence world simulation, with people who are linked karmically appearing to share a world. Why does it appear as if we have sensory organs directed at a world? By Nothing, you don’t mean what people normally think of as nothingness, do you? Is what you essentially mean by nothingness just total nonduality to the point where all appearances dissolve? Does the bubble dissolve in deep sleep, and is that blankness of deep sleep God’s perspective? Were you implying that no-self is more true than universal Self? You said the more profound way to interpret reality was pure objectivity over pure subjectivity. and this is tangential but is awareness inherently intelligent or is intelligence an appearance in awareness?

This thread is about overlaying some foundations about spiritual knowledge. 1. Awareness (Non-changing/ all ever there is) 2. The real-ity (the object, target of the Awareness/ the empty box/ nothingness) 3. Existence (Universe/ Environment/ Infinitude/ Illusion of time also gets under here) 4. Person 4.1 Personal experience (Memory) 4.2 Personal appearance (Body) 4.3 Personal preferences (Mind/thinking/EGO) Properties that don't know where to put in order on the list: Power to claim the realty one (H.Self) desires Power to choose (Who chooses?) Power to wish the reality one (EGO) desires Power to imagine Things to consider No-self Ego-self Higher Self Questions: Which one to identify with? Why to identify Why there're lot's of identities Who's identifying with what? Questions regarding to 1. Awareness Why awareness is dynamic? (Under reality, It is dynamic and infinite, have lots of shapes and forms, is the ultimate super-set) EDIT: Work in progress, posted by accident

Lol ? Fosho dude also might want to learn how we project knowledge/experience, thought, in place of a “direct experience”. And how “self” holds on to experiences. This seems to keep alive self. The self tends to cultivate an appetite for certain experiences. The ”me” will have a certain experience record them and cling to that experience which give self its continuity as the “experiencer”. So there may be a moment of death but it’s short lived when we are chemically induces..Then memory of that experience and we are back into the dual again. Because the memory is always limited to experience/the dual.. The point is death is a moment to moment type of deal. So actually the difficult thing is dying continually. It’s not looking to the experience of death, but more about sustaining death continually by never accumulating experience or holding on to experience, as in AWARNESS. So a way to look at is the ground or default “state” is not an experience but is no experience. Experience comes in when thought is used to navigate/respond physically. Like using thought/experience to learn intellectually, solve outward problems using thought. So try psychedelics fosho, but look into how self records/projects an experience and holds on to an experience as well. This will prevent the need to depend on psychedelics and the after effect of projecting your own accumulated content of knowledge in place of that no self experience when you come to and the chemical wears off. Then you will be able to die continually from moment to moment. Then the more moment to moment awareness stops this unnecessary recording/projecting, then the deeper in nothingness as default.

Yes this is all good stuff!! But how practical is it... Ofcourse Rupert Spira is the best and I have heard all of those and followed those pointings.. I always return to being a body that needs to have food, needs to sleep, needs comfort and many other things like money to be alive, healthy and happy. In deep sleep I do not need those things and I do not crave anything, I do not identify as anything but I also do not experience happiness. I experience nothingness - I want to be happy, to EXPERIENCE happiness. I want to be rich and be able to afford good food, travelling, to be able to build a family and live "The dream". If I were Jane's infinite mind, I would never want Mary to suffer. Who cares if Mary thinks she is Mary and not Jane. Jane is so infinite it shouldn't be a problem for Jane to give Mary the BEST life she can possibly have. If I really am the creator of my own reality, why am I making this body suffer? It doesn't seem right. I would NEVER do that. I am not a sadistic fuck like Jane's infinite mind. Must be my humanity speaking.

Light travels faster than sound so its only natural you saw the thunder strike before you heard it But did you notice the shape, colors, lenght and width of the thunder? Did you notice little branches separating from the main body of the thunder strike? Did you notice where it hit, or did you notice how it went somewhere you dont see? Did you notice your thought how it went somewhere you dont see, but in your mind you know it did go somewhere? Did you notice how the loud bang that hit your ear, how it crackled and how its volume fluctuated? Did it hit hard and fall flat, or did it build up, peak in the middle and fade towards the end? Was it high pitched? Was it low pitched? Was there multiple sounds clashing? Did you notice how the crackle came from nothingness and faded to nothingness? Can you still vividly imagine that sight and sound in your mind when you think about that thunder strike?

@Jack River with nothingness you mean the emptiness of essence? Cause in buddhist text the concept of nothingness is used in terms of a deep meditative state just before reaching nirvana. Where no-thing is perceived but also not nothingness.

Fosho. But thought will imitate nothingness as explained with knowledge. So when we learn about nothingness as an idea/abstraction thought inherently tends to conform too and project that content in place of “now”. That’s not quite my point my man. Awareness sees the whole of this movement towards abstraction and doesn’t continue in that direction. By not going in that direction of positive or negative action that movement/process disolves which brings about that silence then nothingness. To me nothingness seems to be more of a stoppage of thought/time and its registration/recollection/projection. So what I mean is by offering such knowledge about what may be beyond thought, when a person is not aware of how thought opperates thought will tend to accumulate and project all that knowledge as an experience.