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**Note that i do not definitively espouse any of these views outright or with any strong degree of certainty. I am merely presenting some good ideas, to be weighed against other good ideas and valid counterexamples. Strong convictions, held loosely, etc. **And I do not necessarily think any civilization necessarily needs to exist or be sustained and continued. Civilization itself may be a bad idea. Pure nothingness/ non-experience is just as well. But... if we are going to perpetuate our civilization, we might as well set things up strategically, and as optimally as possible. **Written kinda bullet-pointy, doesn't flow well. Take what you will from it. The fact that someone can work hard and strategically to increase their level of consciousness is wonderful. But the fact that someone can work hard and strategically to increase their bank account, despite their level of consciousness, is a travesty. And a recipe for a dysfunctional poopshow of a society. It's possible that how much money you get paid should be based solely on your spiral dynamics level. Not even on your contributions. Reward on the front end, before you make anything of value, without any expectation of having to make anything at all, ever. Now, from a certain perspective, this is actually reward on the back end, because talent and spiral-dynamics-level (or "midichlorian count") is soul labor already accomplished, crystallized and calcified into the soul. And maybe a more nuanced and pragmatic model would be to use level of consciousness as a primary determining factor of monetary income, with some other factors weighed in as well. One could argue that the reason Anakin Skywalker went off the rails is mostly because he was forced to trudge through the archaic conventions of people dumber and less advanced than him, who wouldn't let him use his power until he satisfied their dumb criteria. If he had just been given an open platform to express himself, commensurate with his innate, inborn level of ability (his "midichlorian count"), then no frustration would have arisen, and he would have remained a force for benevolence. Of course it's just a movie, but a decent example nonetheless. One problem with this model is, lower spiral dynamics level players will not permit this, and will do everything in their power to prevent it. And another problem is... who would implement and maintain and enforce the model? Well, those with the highest levels of consciousness, of course. In the same way that the current financial system was a lot of work to create, but has nearly unstoppable momentum.... this new model will be a lot of work to implement, but once up and running, very stable over time, and resilient to perturbation. Perhaps only implementable through enlightened dictatorship, or a team acting in that capacity. Leo brings up some great points about value creation in this blog video. The major problem I have is: Our economic system only rewards innovation within a category. It doesn't reward innovations on the category, which are of course FAR MORE VALUABLE. Our system only rewards solutions which are "a little new". Only mildly innovative. Take cars for example. Sure, you can make millions with a new type of car or a flying car. Or with a little nicknack which makes moving a piano easier. Or with "revolutionary" software or hardware for an airplane. But let's be real: A car, even the best Lamborghini or Tesla or Apple vehicle, is a primitive little metal cockroach with round rubber shoes. Absolutely ridiculous Flintstones nonsense to anyone with half a noodle. Now I love cars as much as the next guy, but let's put it in it's proper place: recreation and hobby, and not our primary means of transportation. And Antigravity is not just some overly-specific example. It's a cornerstone of a functional society. Real innovation makes existing industries obsolete. This is, of course, a problem for the collective ego we call an economy, which feels a need to survive as such. Real innovation cuts to the core, and fast. What passes for innovation in our economy is shallow and frivolous, and slow. Real innovations bring non-dual solutions, which obsolete the need for an economy at all. I'm talking about nothing less than... real innovation reprograms the universe and reverses entropy, such that nobody is a leaky-bucket energy system with unmet needs. An economy presupposes unmet needs. Real innovation takes us to a place where there is no such thing. True innovation obsoletes the need for "careers". The notion of a career is substrated by lack and undesirable circumstances. By wanting to be over there in that other better situation, and needing to do something over a time period to get to there. That's what a career is: a vehicle which transports you from "meh" to "yay". However, when we pass a threshold of yay-ness, which we are currently in the process of doing now, the opportunity arises to raise the floor from meh to yay. And by yay, i mean nothing less than: instant manifestation of anything. Even a magic genie is unsatisfactory and too slow. The very desiring of something must manifest the thing. And if it doesnt, then the "CAREERS" which make the most money should be those which are geared towards bringing that new state of affairs into existence. Also, note that: The greatest minds are ON FIRE in many different fields. Regardless of who came up with them, the best ideas deserve to be implemented. That's not what our economy facilitates. Buckling down on only one thing is inefficient for some minds and personality types. Those wild Leonardo da Vinci types, should be given CEO status on the merit of their spirit alone, not on their results. Then, the results will come 100x. The highest paid musicians should be the ones who write the best riffs and songs. Period. Regardless of work ethic, or networking prowess, or career strategy. No architect should be able to fashion a strong career unless they are visionaries. Period. Money is currently blind, but that is a tragedy. Money should be blind to the lower spiral-dynamics levels, and heavily favor the higher spiral-dynamics levels. Money = power over others, as Leo pointed out. But, the only people who deserve to have power over others are those with dank-ass brains and nuanced perspectives and benevolent souls. Ability to "monetize" those proclivities should be irrelevant. The midichlorian count alone (the level of consciousness) should bring in the paycheck. Those most capable of contributing should be the most supported, without having to interrupt their creative and productive process to go and procure the support. That interruption causes inefficiency and kinks the flow, and therefore fucks us all. Society works better this way, and we all win, cuz better shit gets made. Everyone should get a paycheck NO matter what, and that paycheck should be proportionate to your level of wisdom and soul-growth. The only way to get more money or freedom is to get wiser and better. Not by producing results. When you increase your wisdom and skill, and get rewarded for that, you'll be naturally compelled to create great works. Reward on the front end, product on the back end. Escaping wage-slavery, vs. ENDing it. Winning at musical chairs, vs. creating a better game entirely. In the meantime, our musical chairs game must move towards favoring those who are creating that new game. Not going to happen anytime soon, so act from where you are. (We must be pragmatic... Those in power aren't going to simply hand over their power just because they "should". I probably wouldn't, and you probably wouldn't.). But it's something to strive towards. Ask yourself... Are your life choices and lifestyle moving us towards this new game? And, insofar as you attempt to win at the current game (by all means, go for it!)... is your style of playing conducive to a healthy transition to the new paradigm, or is it reinforcing the old?

@Serotoninluvwow yes I believe it...you say you had ego death in your first trip? No self came after the psychedelic experience for me Maybe this is why I didn’t see more to be better... heres a funny analogy... Taking psychedelics is like going over to the “dark side”: “total dark” yet “very powerful”. Facing yourself is the Jedi way: “using the force” “destroying evil”. In the end “oneness” “nothingness”

Sorry, I realize that this was not the kind of advise that you were looking for you just wanted some quick advise on how to initiate interactions or smth and we give you this spiritual stuff :D:D But do you really want an advise like that? I can give you some if you want. Be confident, speak laudly, smile, know what you want to talk about, keep eye contact. But is this really the kind of advise you're looking for? it's not gonna solve much I think To be honest I'd recommend you to try something from sadhguru. Either yoga or kriya or something. There're many things that he offers. Especially because his beginning programs are highly focused for things that you're talking about. Good life. Happyness. Easy living. Joy. Love. Friends. Health. Energy. Adventurous life. It's made like this on purpose. That you satisfy your basic needs and then the other programs are then about nothingness and shiva and enlightenment and stuff. You said you're looking for those things. Sadhguru would be helpful to you. Other meditations like self-enquiry or vippassana doesn't care about your happyness. It's goes straight to the enlightenment. But you say you don't care about it. So I think sadhguru would be what you're looking for.

Just a few questions I had after the video. Primarily for Leo but if u have an actually intelligent answer I’ll welcome it What’s there when no one is looking? Myself I had the intuition that infinite intelligence simulates everything so that it looks like there is an objective world. Why do we appear to live in a shared world? Again I intuited an infinite intelligence world simulation, with people who are linked karmically appearing to share a world. Why does it appear as if we have sensory organs directed at a world? By Nothing, you don’t mean what people normally think of as nothingness, do you? Is what you essentially mean by nothingness just total nonduality to the point where all appearances dissolve? Does the bubble dissolve in deep sleep, and is that blankness of deep sleep God’s perspective? Were you implying that no-self is more true than universal Self? You said the more profound way to interpret reality was pure objectivity over pure subjectivity. and this is tangential but is awareness inherently intelligent or is intelligence an appearance in awareness?

This thread is about overlaying some foundations about spiritual knowledge. 1. Awareness (Non-changing/ all ever there is) 2. The real-ity (the object, target of the Awareness/ the empty box/ nothingness) 3. Existence (Universe/ Environment/ Infinitude/ Illusion of time also gets under here) 4. Person 4.1 Personal experience (Memory) 4.2 Personal appearance (Body) 4.3 Personal preferences (Mind/thinking/EGO) Properties that don't know where to put in order on the list: Power to claim the realty one (H.Self) desires Power to choose (Who chooses?) Power to wish the reality one (EGO) desires Power to imagine Things to consider No-self Ego-self Higher Self Questions: Which one to identify with? Why to identify Why there're lot's of identities Who's identifying with what? Questions regarding to 1. Awareness Why awareness is dynamic? (Under reality, It is dynamic and infinite, have lots of shapes and forms, is the ultimate super-set) EDIT: Work in progress, posted by accident

Lol ? Fosho dude also might want to learn how we project knowledge/experience, thought, in place of a “direct experience”. And how “self” holds on to experiences. This seems to keep alive self. The self tends to cultivate an appetite for certain experiences. The ”me” will have a certain experience record them and cling to that experience which give self its continuity as the “experiencer”. So there may be a moment of death but it’s short lived when we are chemically induces..Then memory of that experience and we are back into the dual again. Because the memory is always limited to experience/the dual.. The point is death is a moment to moment type of deal. So actually the difficult thing is dying continually. It’s not looking to the experience of death, but more about sustaining death continually by never accumulating experience or holding on to experience, as in AWARNESS. So a way to look at is the ground or default “state” is not an experience but is no experience. Experience comes in when thought is used to navigate/respond physically. Like using thought/experience to learn intellectually, solve outward problems using thought. So try psychedelics fosho, but look into how self records/projects an experience and holds on to an experience as well. This will prevent the need to depend on psychedelics and the after effect of projecting your own accumulated content of knowledge in place of that no self experience when you come to and the chemical wears off. Then you will be able to die continually from moment to moment. Then the more moment to moment awareness stops this unnecessary recording/projecting, then the deeper in nothingness as default.

Yes this is all good stuff!! But how practical is it... Ofcourse Rupert Spira is the best and I have heard all of those and followed those pointings.. I always return to being a body that needs to have food, needs to sleep, needs comfort and many other things like money to be alive, healthy and happy. In deep sleep I do not need those things and I do not crave anything, I do not identify as anything but I also do not experience happiness. I experience nothingness - I want to be happy, to EXPERIENCE happiness. I want to be rich and be able to afford good food, travelling, to be able to build a family and live "The dream". If I were Jane's infinite mind, I would never want Mary to suffer. Who cares if Mary thinks she is Mary and not Jane. Jane is so infinite it shouldn't be a problem for Jane to give Mary the BEST life she can possibly have. If I really am the creator of my own reality, why am I making this body suffer? It doesn't seem right. I would NEVER do that. I am not a sadistic fuck like Jane's infinite mind. Must be my humanity speaking.

Light travels faster than sound so its only natural you saw the thunder strike before you heard it But did you notice the shape, colors, lenght and width of the thunder? Did you notice little branches separating from the main body of the thunder strike? Did you notice where it hit, or did you notice how it went somewhere you dont see? Did you notice your thought how it went somewhere you dont see, but in your mind you know it did go somewhere? Did you notice how the loud bang that hit your ear, how it crackled and how its volume fluctuated? Did it hit hard and fall flat, or did it build up, peak in the middle and fade towards the end? Was it high pitched? Was it low pitched? Was there multiple sounds clashing? Did you notice how the crackle came from nothingness and faded to nothingness? Can you still vividly imagine that sight and sound in your mind when you think about that thunder strike?

@Jack River with nothingness you mean the emptiness of essence? Cause in buddhist text the concept of nothingness is used in terms of a deep meditative state just before reaching nirvana. Where no-thing is perceived but also not nothingness.

Fosho. But thought will imitate nothingness as explained with knowledge. So when we learn about nothingness as an idea/abstraction thought inherently tends to conform too and project that content in place of “now”. That’s not quite my point my man. Awareness sees the whole of this movement towards abstraction and doesn’t continue in that direction. By not going in that direction of positive or negative action that movement/process disolves which brings about that silence then nothingness. To me nothingness seems to be more of a stoppage of thought/time and its registration/recollection/projection. So what I mean is by offering such knowledge about what may be beyond thought, when a person is not aware of how thought opperates thought will tend to accumulate and project all that knowledge as an experience.

1. No. 2. No. The nothingness that is contrasted to the experiencer/experiencing/registration/recollection is not the true nothingness. The nothingness that has to worry about "not being abstract" is not the true nothingness. It may be a reflection of the true nothingness, but it is not it. The true nothingness encompasses the duality of nothing-something and experiencer/no-experiencer. The true nothingness is not a "result," really, but the realization of what you already are and always have been, permanently and unchangeably.

Nothingness is as a result of no registration/recollection and therefore projection of self/thought. If we accumulate content about “nothingness” as an abstraction that seems to get transferred over as an experience as the experiencer. So what I mean is, doesn’t True nothingness come as a result of a mind that doesn’t react/respond with its conditioned movement/process?

Illusion is that which, when you look for it, it disappears. There's no trinity or duality, though you can use that as a provisional framework if you find it helpful. There's not even a oneness in the way we usually use that word. Nor is there nothingness. Just what there is cannot be expressed in words; you'll have to see for yourself. If you see nothingness, then there are no questions being asked and no answers being given.

All these questions though are seen realized when that silence/nothingness becomes actual. In regards to what I said about experiencing without knowledge/experience. A continuous dying. By answering these questions for people could we be imposing knowledge onto others and thereby they will project this information as an experience. Isn’t that an imitation of nothingness/or the unawareness I was speaking about ?

Is it possible there is triality present in an enlightened? The duality interacting with a some "One"? (Regardless of whether one or more of these is illusion). What is illusion, and what relation does it/them have with nothingness? Thank you

Why nothingness exists?

On the 3rd day of a meditation retreat, I was doing the surrendering/do nothing/letting go technique. I was struggling to completely let go. Then in all of a sudden i kind of stepped out of language and realized that the present moment is prior to meaning in language. It was like i escaped the matrix. I realized that reality is prior to morals, values and meaning. I still felt like there was an observer tho and i didn't get an egodeath like i have had on LSD. Later that day I red a book called 'God is Nothingness', it talked about non-duality and nothingness. Its description of non-duality seemed to fit with what i realized. It said that there is this thing called which nothingness is beyond non-duality which blew my mind. Now, my question is: I know how to get to back to that place of pure beeing. Is that what i should do to realize nothingness and reach enlightenment?

last dance with mary jane. I disintegrated last night. I didn't expect Mary Jane to have such an impact on me, but she did - probably because I haven't convened with her in over a year. I was out of town the past couple days to see a concert with my brother. When we got back from the concert, I figured why not give the ol' reefer a go since it's here. A few puffs later, and my sense of self unraveled like a ball of yarn. I closed my eyes and entered another dimension where I was beautiful fractals and sacred designs over a blank canvas of nothingness. Totally malleable, yet totally solid Being. Insights downloaded left and right, but I had difficulty encapsulating them into words. Here was my attempt: You don’t have to look for it. You only need to let go of yourself enough that you disintegrate, and what’s left is pure being. Being is dynamic. It is always moving, but also incredibly still. Like a silent abandoned movie theatre. Kind of boring to not react to stuff [in life] because you know it’s a movie. More fun to play the role and be immersed. It was never serious. Death is only the washing away of paint on a board that doesn’t break, ever. Beyond death is an endless safety net. The beauty of total Presence in the Timeless realm was overwhelming. I appreciated every spontaneous fractal and every new idea. I witnessed my eternal Aloneness and was okay with it. I witnessed my half-dead ego in its perfection - all of the little sensations and energy signatures that make up the unit called "JJ." So convincingly real it's hilarious, yet when you see its flimsiness you can't help but laugh at it. Synesthesia was apparent as well. Musical sounds became wavy visions, which blended into textures. I realized they're all the same thing - awareness. Crazy-ass awareness doing its dance of formless form. Then I returned to the third dimension and conked out. I'm excited to integrate and embody these insights through the coming years. This experience goes to show that even marijuana can be used constructively when the intentions are pure.

You, which is nothingness is definition a dual. So yes, I am. I am experiencing dual cause I am not enlightened. I can't grasp non dual, only in the conceptual state. If I am to experience it, I am sure it will be otherwise. I get conscious of the meaning/meaninglessness, then a story is created where I look at that and can't find a way. I, me, my ego, can't rationalize it. Only accept it by don't understanding it, and then let the empty cup be open for filling. There are little resistance with my thoughts when I am conscious, cause I can't do shit about them. But of course you fall asleep at moments during the day and in the vast network of subconscious thoughts, there are of course accumulated a ridiculous amount if resistance I am not aware of. It really feels like a not knowing a shit state, and I keep looking for a purpose, but can't see any. I can only see purpose in awakening.

You got me. After a month of contemplating on math, this your basic-looking one sentence, finally got me. Hail to you champion. EDIT: I'd answer to that with: Let's just don't use some equality operator we took granted and never questioned when we learned it in first place back in school. If you forget about equality operator, then let me open you the doors. Observe the two things. Observe them. Think about them. Think about nothingness. Think about infinitude. MAN!. Those HAVE SIMIPLAR PPROPERTIES! You gotta observe them for yourself for your answers. A hint I'd like to give you is, remember! the equality operator is just an operator that tells that the two things are very VERY closeLY related, in fact we cannot DEFINE the intellectual EQUALITY operator.

Yes, The confusion comes from following the 'we are all unique perception' vs following the 'we are all nothingness'.

oh okay. i think i kinda understand it a lil bit. I had think about it for a little while. No matter how much i think about "I am God" ,literally it doesn't sounds true to me, at all, i can't relate, i am not(yet) God haha jk. But i think i know what it means. In the religion tht i believe in, we simply had clarity. and a peace of mind when it comes to God. No matter how i look at it, and observing my religion and different world view, i still had that clarity.clarity that i am on the right track. i haven't found something that doesn't make sense to me in this religion. the more i look into everything, it only strengthen my clarity. Though i haven't experience becoming the auliyaa', the friend's of God but i do know of some people who are really close to God and His messenger, and we call them saints. whenever something that defies logic happened , we know that those are the people of God. The most important criteria to be God's friend is to purify yourself. These people, they have the best of character,and are very wise( i call it intelligence). they can meet the prophet many times. no more distinction between this dimension and a higher dimension. these people can be in both dimensions at the same time. But they never preach to us that "you are God" . Instead , it's always about "surrendering yourself to God completely" ,and purifying yourself, in every aspect of life including food and your relationship with God and others. But, they never say they are God, in fact they didn't like it if we we're to treat them too specially as a guru, very down to earth.They are human , just like any other prophets, but are given the perception of God, as they are those who are closest to God, hence To think that "i am God" literally, is kinda self centered, as if the world revolves around u. (At least that's what normal people would understand). But, i think i get it. It's up to you how u wanna think about it. be it centered around "God" or centered around "You". Both can be your Absolute Reality depending on how you wanna view the thing u called "GOD"/tht experience.. basically it's the same thing, but worded differently.(or viewed differently?) one you say it's you. the other you say it's the God that u surrendered yourself to. but referring to the very same experience and understanding. or it could be that those saints are tryin to explain in ways that will actually bring us to the real truth. instead of making many people misunderstood the real meaning if they we're to tell you "you are God". n not make people eventually realize it's meaning if they go with that approach. it's just my guessing tho. idk. there's a quote in islam, that everything are the breathe of Allah. and to Him we surrendered Ourselves. I think, about the reality, it will reach to the same thing, to that very same reality, but worded and viewed differently. we can question that our physicality may not actually be physical . But, whatever it is, it exist(that nothingness exist). and it is the creation of God. All coming from the One God that we believe in. If He decided that He wants to let you experience God's perception, then it will happen. But don't be too "self"-centered that you disregard the Higher Being. And say it's "you" after He had make Himself known to You. Which only happens only to those who had really purified themselves, a person who are genuinely sincere, honest and free from bad character,especially the heart. to those who had experience the Absolute, Am i gettin there? or still too far from it? did i get it wrong? a question : if you have reached enlightenment, do you still have to meditate? in my case our meditation is the daily prayers. if I am God, does it mean i prayed to myself then? why would i pray to myself haha. but, i am not God. it's gonna be a long journey~

For me, the two biggest questions I’ve probably always been most fascinated by are: how is there something rather than nothing? Shouldn’t there be absolute nothingness? Where is all this energy and existence coming from? how am I me rather than someone / something else? It seems just as possible that I could have been any other life form, or simply not have existed.

Ahhhh. I did 20+ years of part-time consciousness work - 100% substance-free. So, I had a large foundation before my first psychedelic experience. Regarding direct experience in an area of awakening, my first "ego death" trip of four hours revealed more than 20+ years of meditation, retreats, readings, dharma talks etc. There was a knowing of a couple key concepts I never understood - even after many many years of study and meditation. It's like being rocketed to spiritual awakening. Yet then you return. I think I had a solid spiritual foundation to absorb the experience. I had felt an inner calling to go deeper with psychedelics for several years before I honored it. I would say that a 5-meo peak experience is on the same level of a buddhist master. Yet how that 5-meo experience is interpreted and integrated is dependent upon the developmental spiritual stage of the user. Someone with a shallow / immature spiritual foundation may be shaped by 5-meo very differently than someone with a solid / mature spiritual foundation. I know someone who has spent about forty years expanding her consciousness without substances. She is very highly evolved. I can sense that she is in tune with areas that are foreign to me. Likewise, it is clear to me that she does not have direct experience in a few areas I do. For example, a 5-meo peak took me to the null void. She speaks of nothingness conceptually, yet I can tell she has never ventured there. As well, I can tell she has direct experience I have never ventured. It's not like one is "higher" than the other. They are both highly evolved. Yet, I would say a lifetime of practice provides a spiritual maturity that a teenager doing 5-meo a few times would lack. With that said, anyone rocketed to a buddhist master level on a 5-meo peak will be profoundly affected. How that manifests will vary depending on the user. From one perspective, it is a "short cut". From another perspective, there are no "short cuts". Awakening is instant and a process.

What seems to make it so difficult is it’s not a “cultivated thing” to be attained. As in Time(40years) or any chemical technological “means” can get us to the mysterious of nothingness. All of that is still conditioned movement. That’s what makes it so uncatchabel dudes. That’s what makes it so cool. Expanding consciousness=endless experiences “permanent awareness as the ground”= no experience at all. Then experience comes in only when needed, as in application of the intellect/thought.