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Wanting to know Truth is not enough. If you need to know it like it's eating at you from the inside out night and day and even if it kills you you're willing to die to know it,then I'd say you're ready. "willing to die to know it" doesn't mean physical suicide either. That's a cop out reserved only for elite pussbags who can't stand themselves and don't deserve to even sniff the sweet taint of truth.

The desire for oneness can sometimes look like "sin". When the drive "I need you to love me" doesn't get fulfilled, it may turn into suicide, murder, rape, power, control, and manipulation. People feeling unloved is dangerous.

i didn't say "horrific", but alaska is quite isolated and cold and people from switzerland have major issues with depression and suicide.

@Durka_Durka Come on! Suicide is not an option! I know,no matter how shitty you feel and think, it doesnt have to end like this. Why end your life cause of those stupid thoughts? Have a little faith.Something to hold on to even if its totally fake,not existing,a bubble . Cause life is a bubble anyway. So why not? "I look out of this window and I think this is a cosmos, this is a huge creation, this is one small corner of it. The trees and birds and everything else and I'm part of it. I didn't ask to be put here, I've been lucky in finding myself here." Morris West

@Revolutionary Think Yes. Accept and love them for who they are. Dismiss their ways of thinking without being obnoxious yourself ( even in your own mind, keep it healthy ) Create more space and time between your interactions. Be the one in control with the power of suggestion Stay true to yourself I wrote a long article but cannot post it, sorry. I wish I could share my life that much, I really do, but in my case I had to be a warrior in a 3rd world post communist country while being a hippy with purposeful implementation. I've been manipulated, experienced betrayal and even had to accept the fact that a family member committed suicide. I wrote that small list because I gradually developed them in order to survive while not severing the love bonds between us. One more thing : "With great power, comes great responsability" [Uncle Owen from "Spiderman"]. Most of the time accepting the limits of others while still loving them, can solve more problems than you can think. Take control of the moment, wisely. Want a job ? https://www.freelancer.com/ http://upwork.com/ https://www.fiverr.com/ // Hope this helps // I am currently working on financial independence and found these platforms very useful for starters, at least for gathering resources ( money ) // I posted these ideas since I saw you said that you do not like complicated math (didn't mean to offensive), so content writing, web development or even programming could be a great start. Peace

@Mikael89 I may have been unclear. I'm not saying consciousness can be annihilated. I'm not even saying phenomena can be annihilated, just that to the enlightened it wouldn't make any difference if it was. If you're so indifferent to the world that you couldn't care less whether all phenomena disappears tomorrow or continues, what difference does it make whether it does or it doesn't? So it is annihilation. Re reincarnation, my mind has long been open to that concept (it makes sense), but I don't believe dogmas without evidence and certainly wouldn't bet the governing strategy of my entire life on it. In any case, it's beside the point, we're not considering actually committing suicide, we're using it as a thought experiment. Think of a time when you didn't know about enlightenment or believe in reincarnation. Someone says 'Life sucks. Why don't you kill yourself? Then you'll know what happens when you die'. Would you have done it? It's the same question. Re 'life is bullshit', perhaps this summarises our differences and reinforces my point about the reasons anyone would want to be enlightened. I don't think life's bullshit. .................................................................................................................................................................................................... I won't have internet access for a few days now so I'm going to wrap up my part in this discussion. I know I've been provocative, and I'm sorry if I've ruffled anyone's feathers, but I stand by my tiny effort to balance a discourse that too easily leads to unrealistic expectations and a careless 'of course enlightenment' perspective. Views some have expressed here such as 'there are no cons to enlightenment' reinforce my theory that many seekers don't know what they're asking for, and are expecting a big pay off that isn't going to happen. 'There are no pros or cons to anything' might make more sense, but could you say it and mean it? I used to think enlightenment was a no-brainer, too, but you know what - there is absolutely no obvious answer to whether it's a worthwhile pursuit. From the perspective of the human being, of course it isn't. From the perspective of God, nothing's worthwhile, who cares? For my part I will be probably be contemplating this for a while before deciding whether I return to seeking or not. Special thanks to @Solace @Emerald @Victor Mgazi for the food-for-thought.

@Stretch I think you missed my point. Awakening is not about ending the dream ,you can't end something that has no beginning. It's simply about being aware of the dream, the same way you would be aware in an actual dream that you are dreaming so even if you get shot(or be held at gun point) in the dream that wouldn't matter to you. Awakening is not suicide or death, it's the realization that there is no one to commit suicide or die. Similar to the way that there's no one to get shot in the dream. Everyone (including you) in that dream are happening in your head and even in this reality. You are simply part of the dream and once you awaken you will still be part of the dream because you only exist in this dream. Even the concept of a truth is part of the dream, everything you know is part of the dream! So yeah you can choose to be conscious of that or not. Maybe you like all the pleasure and pain in this dream so do what you will. It's very simple.

@Outer Once again, this argument took it as a given from the start that believing in a seperate self is a delusion and truth can be found in stillness. Doesn't answer the question. 'No thoughts is the goal' only applies if you're already assuming enlightenment is a desirable thing. Frankly, some of you here sound brainwashed. @Victor Mgazi So we're back to the 'truth for truth's sake' line. All you get from enlightenment is to end the dream of life. So really it doesn't make any sense if you're not sick of living. It's the 'life sucks, just kill yourself' argument. If enlightenment wasn't dressed up with fantastical, misleading appeals to the ego (mystical states you also have to ultimately renounce, the ridiculously nonsensical prospect of being some blissed out 'enlightened being', etc), I wonder if any mentally stable person would give it any more consideration than a suggestion of suicide? Unless, (I'm addressing everyone now), knowing the truth just for the sake of it matters more to you than everything else in the universe combined, and you'll gladly do that trade. Think you fit that category? Ask yourself why you're still doing anything at all.

@Mikael89 Sure, my mind is rebelling totally. That could be said of anyone who ever changed their mind. Only if you already assume that enlightenment is a desirable thing does that become a concern. And lol, yeah if I ask a teacher of enlightenment they're sure to promote enlightenment. If I ask a teacher of terrorist suicide bombing they're sure to promote suicide bombing. Doesn't make it a good idea. @Bobby Go on then, what have I missed? @cirkussmile Yes, enlightenment is the end of suffering, and is natural of course, as it's truth. We're going round in circles here, that was established at the beginning.

My girlfriend has serious emotional problems and has been trying to overcome them for a few years now, going to therapy, meditating, reading, trying different exercises but she feels she is still in the same place, and has lost hope. She often says she wants to be dead, and says nobody understands her, she feels alone and hopeless. She has been hinting she will do something to call the attention of the people around her, so they can see how bad she feels, she has talked about suicide. What should I do?

I’m having some problems to determine where on the spiral could I be and therefor I don’t know where the hell to begin working on. From one hand I’m still trapped en a very blue sense of guilt because of a lot of thing I’ve done in the past, but in a lot of things I’ve also trascended blues guilt. I think I’m mostly in orange, but in a kind of inward orange or a low stage orange because I’ve being very depressed for around three years ive had an intempted suicide a couple months ago, I am very disinterested in accomplishing anything with small lapses of entrepreneurism. Because I don’t have any money I started to attend to AA meetings (Ive never had problems with any substances or so, but I’ve found a place to empty my self of those thoughts) but even in AA I see a lot of delusion as Leo has explained. There is something inside of me that knows that what Leo is teaching is the way, but at the same time I know I have so many things to work on my self first. It’s strange! It’s like I understand everything that Leo is saying (I know that “believing” doesn’t matter at all) but my reality is so basic, and every time I plan to work on stage Orange to fully embody my stage, Thoughts of “Why even try if it’s delusion?” Comes to my head. You can see in my writing that it’s so confusing, but that’s how I feel right now. I really really hope you can help me and that I’m ready for the help.

@Primentex thoughts of suicide are just a distraction. Suffering comes in many forms, small and large, simple and complicated. But all mental suffering occurs because you want to force 'reality' to your will. And when 'reality' doesn't do what you want it to, you suffer. All distraction is just suffering in disguise; you distract yourself because you do not like reality and you do not like reality because it's not happening the way you want it to. Step away from the suicide. Step away from the distraction. Embrace reality as it is.

I tell myself regularly to not be cheap. 2_ ways to not be cheap Focus on health first Don't stop trying Give value to yourself the way you are. Do not care about societal expectations of yourself. Embrace your uniqueness Express yourself fully and be honest and upfront and not pretentious Be detached and indifferent from the world. Be a goal setter but don't be too ambitious. Give value to your time Stop giving value to objects. Take care of your self Remember that you are better than you what you think you are Remember that you are important Do not spend your time in frivolous stuff Stay away from anything that is even slightly toxic Cut off people who are annoying, painful or harass or difficult. Be very open and assertive Be matured in your choices Develop healthy habits If you constantly feel like you are not good enough or you wish you could have been this or that or you had something you wish, it's natural to feel that way, but remember that you are not the only one and remember that life is not meant to be living with pity and regrets but with hope and faith towards a better future. Be appreciative of whatever you already have and embrace and accept it and nurture it. Make good out of whatever you got instead of feeling sorry for what you don't. Remember that there's just nothing about something that doesn't exist or lost, but salvage that which you can. Regretting your life is like crying over spoiled milk, the milk is not gonna come back, so what's the point of crying and regretting and feeling deprived or unlucky for not having what others got. It has no benefit other than a momentary feeling of upset and disappointment and sadness. It's like adding insult to injury. Find peace. Constantly reminding yourself of what you can't have is a recipe for adding unhappiness to an already frustrated unhappy mind. One thing is - you never know if others have it better. What if they don't. What If they are tired of their shit and want out. ..you might think they have it better but maybe think don't think same. Often times we hear a celeb commiting suicide and we think it's absurd but it's actually not. You never know what they had to deal with. Therefore don't be quick to judge or don't think everyone has it perfect. In fact most don't. It's just that most people don't tell how they suffer cause they are shy or embarrassed to open up about their struggle...... ..... So if you think you aren't good enough, don't beat yourself, you weren't expected to be, you are already good as you are and frankly if you are constantly thinking that then you are obviously taking life too seriously. Fuck that shit. How does it matter if life turned out bad or good. Competition only exists because you create it. Your create your own thoughts of misery and despair. Yes life can be complicated and painful but we can control how we react, we can definitely choose not to react at all. So it doesn't even matter if things didn't work out. If you did your best, you should be at peace. Remember that nothing in this universe is perfect or free from chaos. Even if anything is perfect its mostly rare. And everything that is perfect doesn't stay perfect forever. That's how time causes everything to finally degrade and disappear. So enjoy it in the hear and now. Beauty lies in experiencing beautiful moments every now and then because these moments once gone are not gonna come back ...... .... Appreciate who you are because you are the product of your circumstances and you are not to be blamed and you are not at fault. You can only do as much good as you can and that's the testimony of how much good you are. Your trials are a witness of your strength and your determination to make it good. Don't be let down by them. Life may not be worth living because there's not much to enjoy but it's definitely worth struggling and fighting for. Don't let it slip by just cuz it doesn't get better. Your effort to better your life will bear fruit one day even though now it looks like an unfulfilled dream.

@Primentex The nature of the universe is to evolve. Suicide thwarts that nature.

@Primentex There was a time when I thought the secret to life was suicide. I'm not sure why, but everything around me was pointing to it. I wasn't depressed or anything. It just seemed to come to me like an insight or something. Suicide seemed to make sense on so many levels. At the time I had been really diving into teachings of enlightenment and was expanding my mind at a really fast rate. Back then there was no internet, no forums, no one to discuss my experience with that understood. So it was a very lonely journey. Instead of ending my search for understanding and allowing suicide to be the answer, I kept going deeper. Until I found myself in a place of a gratitude and wonder. Reflecting back on it, I think I was misunderstanding most of what I was reading and experiencing. I was taking everything too literal. I think suicide is a very self centered trap on the road of self development. I think it's healthy to contemplate death and to practice accepting death. Life is a paradox. So considering life to be an illusion or dream, doesn't make it any less real. I don't know if you play video games but you can think of it this way... you know the game isn't real but it's fun to play! If you kill your video game character, he really dies in the game. But the point of the game being created is to play it through until it's end not to just kill your character and stop playing. You're here now in this beautiful/ugly illusion, why not use the opportunity to explore and play!

Spot on. I have too experienced something like that on LSD. I "realized" that I cant escape myself or the world, so if I commit suicide I will be just where I was before and I will live forever in a limbo. So it was nonsense, but it felt very very real. What got me out of it, was to firstly become aware that it is happening, then become present and ask myself: "what is true? what is true beyond my thoughts?". Then I realized my panic was rooted in a thought, and a thought is not the ultimate reality. So the panic stopped right there. Then I laughed. You talk about "meaninglessness sucking you in". One reason for that could be that you resisted your experience with your mind. Your mind is a meaning and connection making machine. When it suddenly can't find any, it panics and clings to what ever it can get a hold of. Sometimes that meaning is pure delusion (say, a psychotic episode) but the mind does not care, it's a survival mechanism for it so it could not care less if the meaning it comes up with is true at all. You started to distract yourself, that was a mistake. You tried to deny it was happening, but that denial was a superficial layer on top of your true experience. It was a attempt to take back control of the situation. But really, you have no control over anything, so you used all your (non-existant) "tools" available. You simply jumped to an experience that you maybe was not ready yet. How to know when you are ready for some psychedelic experience? When you are facing it. How to recover? Ground yourself in what you know is true. Ground yourself in things you enjoy. Not what you believe is maybe true. You don't know anything about death, and thats okay. Take your time to just live your regular life. Right now, the experience is over, but the memory of it still haunts you. Have you read Echard Tolles "Power of now?" If you haven't, read it. If you have, read it again. Happiness and joyful living is available for you right now, every second. Only reason you feel scarred is that you are not in the now, you hold on to a memory. Of course letting go of that memory is not as simple as "dropping it", as it will find it's way to your consciousness. So what you are facing here is a process of becoming present each time you notice you are somehow re-living the experience. Also, don't take drugs for now, that's obvious I think. If you can't get past your trauma say, in a few months, consider therapy and/or a healer. Im clueless about healing myself, but I have read it's very helpful for many. Also one thing what you can try if nothing else works, try taking something around 80mg of MDMA. It is a powerful way to work with trauma, and lots of research is being made on it's effects to cure PTSD. If you decide to go that route, your standard drug safety guides apply. Get a milligram scale. Good luck! Come on...

Just look around you. Is there anything that you see that is not calm and quiet? Have you see the trees wondering about comitting suicide? Or a chair? Or a rock? If you are observant there’s only one thing that is not satisfied with what is and that is the voice in the head having these kind of conversations with itself. Are the entire universe wrong or is it something you haven’t figured out yet? If that voice is not there you will see that everything around you is perfectly fine with being what it is.

@fireworld Let me rewrite what you wrote from stage Blue's POV thinking about your stage (Orange). Orange Stupidity: The idea behind Spiral Dynamics is that you go through the stages and incorporate the previous stages into the higher ones to some extent. Given this shouldn't stage Orange have a decent amount of understanding of how religion and morality works? I understand that there are limits to religion and that it can be done in an unhealthy way, but from my perspective every person that i have met that is in stage Orange is extremely selfish and disconnected from "moral living". Take the human body as an example of a system, we know that this system called a human body operates in certain ways that keeps it healthy and strong. Proper food, sleep, prayer, fasting, chastity, and so on. But the stage Oranges seem to be extremely against any "set" rules for keeping your materialistic cravings in check. They will take something like casual sex or greasy fast food or alcohol and call it healthy even though we know it isn't healthy at all and is most likely going to be the thing that kills you. The same is true about business, or relationships or anything that we have a deep understanding of. Our religious leaders have long ago pointed out the evils of having a materialistic worldview. Materialism leads to a rejection of God, a mindless belief in technological progress and science, and is responsible for greed, corporate exploitation, objectification of women, sex addiction, drug addiction, food addiction, pornography, crude humor, violent video games, nuclear weapons, depression, suicide, loss of direction, broken marriages, single mothers, STDs, abortions, and much more. Isn't Orange corrupting the very fabric of decent society, turning it into the devil's playground? How can Orange be so stupid as to expect happiness from money, fine clothing, technological gadgetry, TV, video games, Facebook, sex before marriage, pornography, drugs, and rock n roll? Isn't Orange the embodiment of depravity and godlessness? Isn't this the greatest limiting factor to stage Orange? Is that they are completely ignoring how spiritual reality actually works and that's the reason they end up in so much trouble and pain?

I always find it silly that people automatically assume that if someone wants to suicide , it's surely because he doesn't know people love him. like : "oh why do you want to kill yourself ? your mom loves you , your father loves you , everybody loves you ". why do you assume that any suicide related question is about love somewhere ... lack of love , or lack of awareness about the love he receives ? Maybe someone just want to end his life , because he doesn't see any meaning in it ... maybe he got the feeling that life being an illusion , it has to be a joke, a bad joke filled with non sense.

@Nahm that's rough man sorry you had to go through that. This topic is coming up so much, suicide is not the answer - and I believe you will just get dumped into another miserable existence when you do until you learn your lesson and achieve enlightenment, however many lives that takes.

So in the Wild Wild Country documentary there is a part where Osho wants to commit suicide with help of his doctor through lethal injection. The attempt is unsucesful but later on he does die at the age of 58 and in the doctor's presence. So we can say it's likely that they actualy did it in the end. Another thing is that as many of you may know in the eastern culture there is a tradition of Mahasamadhi which is basicaly leaving one's body after realization / fulfiling his pourpose on earth/ being no longer interested in life here, whatever you wanna call it. Phenomenon of Mahasamadhi is well documented and there are countles examples. So my questions are: If Osho was so blisful/attained and all that good stuff why would he want to commit suicide at the age of 58 ? And if he decided that it's his time to leave why woudn't he do it trough Mahasamadhi ? I'm sure he was aware of the practice. What do you guys think of it.

If you are enlightened even just being is enough. Your beingness will touch people's lives. Have you heard about the homeless man who was about to commit suicide and because of the eye contact and smile of one single stranger while the crossed each other, he decide to stay alive and totally turned his life around?

@Primentex Went to my friend’s funeral yesterday, who committed suicide. Some reasons off the top of my head not to do that; his mom, his sister, his friends, his niece, his nephew, his coworkers, his uncles & aunts, his cousins, his grandma, & that he could have gotten the help he needed and lived a happy and amazing life (he was 23). And I don’t mean he shouldn’t have done that for the sake of those people, I mean he could have realized he had all those people loving him already, and he could have loved them. He probably would have seen that life typically get’s easier in just a few years from 23. Also, if you actually were aware (realized) that this is an illusion, you wouldn’t be thinking about nor asking about suicide - that reveals you are in the duality of believing you are alive. Upon realization, there is all the love & joy in “life”, as there is in “death”, as they are actually the same, with regard to You.

Life can be sheer joy, a beautiful dream. People think of committing suicide because they don’t know how to beautify it.

You'll just be catapulted into a new life anyway. Reincarnation man. And in this new life you might not be aware of actualized.org and that suicide is really not that much of a problem. Better work a bit on your (illusory) karma while you have the chance.