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"Ken Wilber: The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean. It's somehow just kind of closes them down it's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it it doesn't quite cause the transformation. It can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience and some people like David Deida will say that in order for altered changes of state to contribute to transformation a permanent transformation it has to be basically endogenous and not a exogenous it has to be has your own source People who do that (Psychedelics) the people that do use both (Meditation and Psychedelics) and use it as a sacrament i think an enormous bit out of it." As always: Consider the different perspectives and draw your own conclusions. PS: Lot of Leos work contains extraordinary metaphysical explanations that are in my perspective absolutely marvelous. I wish him permanent happiness, liberation and the bliss of constantly resting in his True Being, that will then radiate as love and compassion.

When you said to experience "individual as the world", and when I replied it that "present experience itself is enough to show that", what I meant is this world is made up of 5 elements. And so, this body too is made up of 5 elements. If one has the experience of "I am the body", then this itself is enough to show that "I am the world", as both world-body is same 5 elements, and it's not necessary to experience ALL permutations and combinations to show that, but "I am the body" itself is enough. So, then that's it. Never have to seek anything in world (or any experience - within or out of body or etc.), but just understand things/limitations, and so "Love-->Bliss-->Peace".

It seems, you fail to see two things here. One, in lucid dream, the physical threat is still there, and one cannot move physical body while having lucid dream. Second, about Bliss. Bliss is the best experience, which no enlightened one can deny. It's never a boring thing. It even flows in movement of physical body, one can look after their daily affairs while experiencing Bliss and not like Lucid dreaming (where one have to go unconscious of physical happenings). Bliss, never depend on going unconscious of some other. Bliss is not selfish too. Never have to seek, and flows in Empty mind. Satisfaction, never can happen when one is attached to any object of imagination. When there are desires rooted in the heart, never there gonna be true satisfaction until all such desires are eliminated/reduced. Satisfaction is choice, for Ignorant, and that's just imaginary satisfaction and ends while seeking desired objects. But, Satisfaction is Choiceless for Wise, and that never gonna end whatever objects appear before, as nothing one desires and content with anything appears - never satisfaction lost in any situation.

This world, is free for any kind of societies. There is no denial for any, but one increases out of it's desire and support, and another get's decreased. You know, not these powers are truly "powers" but "Desire and strong belief". That is the true power. And this Desire for "not such Mystical but just 'Peaceful' Material seeking Human Life", had make this society dominant over such Mystical. Still, there are those society in Middle-East Mountain/Forest regions practice those Mystics (like Kamar-Taj in Doctor Strange), as this world is open for such desires and practices too. There is no limit for desires and creation of different societies in this world, but what will be 'more recognised' will be what most people 'believe' upon. But, in case of Truth, just throw away all beliefs, no pleasure-sufferings, and Be Blissful and Peace, Unconcerned and Act Unconsciously of world. Consciousness, has two types, Inward and Outward. When Consciousness remains Still Bliss and Peace always, then it is Inward "so no conscious of outward - Unconscious of Materiality,etc". But, when Conscious moves outward, then Ignorance-Desires-Pleasure-Pain-etc., whole lot of limitations experienced. Like, there is Lamp Always. It can remain Off always - formless, or ignorantly think and On itself to experience outwardly all it's appearance/forms/etc.

It's about Bliss(true limitless happiness - not based on materials) and Pleasure. First, this "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance" - it's about Bliss. Then, this "but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.", who doesn't have Bliss, then Pleasure shall be taken away. Just my own view.

Hi there. Like, how you said in another thread that "Good and Bad are subjective, human concepts", will you agree in the same manner that "Positive +17,etc. and Negative -21,etc., is also human concepts, subjective"? Like At first to Till Atlast - everything everywhere all at once, only '0' remains but never any '+17, -21,...' from birth to till death and in every experiences (also in No-Experience)?, but that 'subjective, human concepts' is out of Ignorance (like, if one doesn't have thought of 'world,etc.'- one won't create such concepts but just 'Bliss --> Peace'?)?

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I think Self-Realized people don’t experience life reactively. They don’t mistake their personal preferences for how “life should be,” nor do they get upset when they are inconvenienced. They experience non-reactivity, or bliss. Bliss is what you experience when every other sensation dissolves.

As someone who reached a level of awakening that involved quite literally enjoying intense physical pain, I can fairly confidently say no. Awakening will not Absolutely get rid of suffering, though it may recontextualize that suffering such that it is simultaneously felt as bliss. Still, suffering is a spectrum and there are levels of suffering biological humans are not capable of "Awakening beyond", Absolute Infinity necessitates this. Even then, think about what truly awakening means, it means you no longer have a desire to not suffer, therefore you will eventually find yourself in a form that suffers, a form that isn't awake such that the suffering is recontextualized, a selfless form that is willing to suffer, even desiring to suffer. Awakening is good for recontextualizing present-moment suffering such that it is less sufferable however.

Then enlightenment is not worth the hustle? The Buddha's main teaching was how to eliminate suffering. The Hindus say you are Sat-Chit-Ananda..meaning existence, awareness, bliss. Jesus talks about the kingdom of heaven. What are you basing your claim on that enlightened people suffer? You misunderstood me. I mean you care more about eliminating suffering than merely understanding it.

I'm gonna make it short, i'm 29 When i was a boy i've always wondered what the purpose of life was, at one point i've had realization that money didn't matter but the only thing that mattered was reproduction on earth. I was thinking that the only purpose of life here on earth was to reproduce and that's all. Because our ancestors have been having sex for thousands of years just so we can be here, so i thought the only purpose is basically to not disappoint your ancestors and have children to make you gene pool last. I was thinking what's the point of having millions of dollars and no children, when you're just gonna destroy your gene pool and disappoint your ancestors. This lead me in becoming sperm donor at age 26, before becoming sperm donor my interest was in learning about human behavior specifically female behavior. I've experimented with female behavior to a point that i could make them like me and sleep with me without knowing me just by doing some things that they were programmed to like. I've tested it hundreds of time online in a virtual world wearing fullbody vr equipment. Anyway, when i applied as a sperm donor i had to go through a 49 year old female clinical psychologist. Before that i sent them an e-mail explaining that i could achieve everything that i wanted without doing much and acted like a narcissist. But at the interview i had so much control over her without doing anything/much that she was in shock/awe/bliss also a lot of miracles were experienced. This lead to another awakening and the new purpose was, to research/develop my own consciousness and i was thinking this is the only purpose on earth. But recently when i was conscious of being god and deconstructed the whole of reality i've realized that the only purpose is to live life and that all the awakenings or consciousness research isnt important. The reason you are here is because you don't want to be there, god loves having others that would love him and others. So you can say i've achieved all the important human goals at a young age, right now i'm just living and working alone and in peace without stress or any bullshit. At my current level of consciousness, i've realized that this is heaven and perfection where we are but it doesn't make me highly conscious like all these "consciousness scales" make you perceive. But it's just that i realized how boring and how bad the true reality of god is without having "others". Everything is known and deconstructed including all the lies, but god had no other choice. God is loving because he take cares of you at all times, giving you a perfect balance of everything at all times, making "others" look real as possible so you just can enjoy your life.

I’ll allow it. I’m struggling with “meditation proper” just from my readings of the history of Qigong and meditation. The core and foundation is that raw observing and brute sitting and observing. But, there is more… read Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard. It’s about 3 Taoist wizards handing in their internal achievements to a young man. Very inspiring for those spiritually serious. The 3 wizards are named by their achievements: 1. The wizard of infinity 2. The wizard of the void 3. The wizard of infinity bliss Very cool story.

You can't dig deeper. There is no you to dig, and there is no "deeper" to get to. There is only apparently deeper. The desire to go deeper is simply the illusory self, dissatisfied, thinking it is separate, thinking it can change what is. What a joke! It cannot do anything. It is not there to do it. Not there. No-self seems to be misunderstood by almost everyone (?) on this forum. True no-self is ALL of the profundity that is apparently experienced in the deepest psychedelic states on DMT or similar molecules. And it is always there. It never leaves because there is nothing else. It can't go anywhere. In this, there is only utter profundity and utter perfection in every apparent waking moment. Nothing is needed. Nothing. This is already perfect - not some idea of perfection, but actual perfection, bliss. Unending.

You have to be honest with yourself and your needs first. If she is on the same level as you than she should be receptive to understand you. Once a week is not much because usually still quite early in the relationship, in my past relationships sometimes lovemaking would occur multiple times a day in the beginning because everything is fresh and things need to be exchanged, energy needs to go somewhere. It is also important to be aware of is if she is just wanting sex to "release" and use you as that tool for that release, this then can become a toxic cycle for both of you and not stemming out of pure love, true lovemaking is so powerful that you both become so nourished by it that it tends to occur less often but more potent and transforming. This is at least what I have observed in my dances with women and lovers. We sometimes need to find ways to nourish that inner-primal being but also teach it respect and discipline. You could bring up with her to learn to channel that energy in other ways, like creative tasks, dancing, whatever she is passionate about, and with practice she will be amazed that she will feel more bliss and less needy for sex. Its an Art form, and life is a balancing act.

Yes many times, maybe 30 - 40 times in my earlier years. MDMA is more of a "cheap bliss" that the undisciplined mind tends can get psychologically attached too because It has yet to experience anything greater. I abused MDMA later a lot because I aimed to replicate what I had experienced through deep inquiry and meditation after a destructive recycling process, yet it never provided me the same purity and everlasting wholesomeness. It always was a smokey version of the true heart of joy and purity of being. MDMA is can be more "intense" yes, but its an un-natural feeling, its a drug, a "copy" of the real thing, which is pure, peace, bliss, cool, calm, content. You can still induce similar intensity naturally with meditation and breathing, but its not ideal to be in such intense states all the time or you will struggle to ground and relate to the physical reality in any way, you will be too "out there" for any growth and structure in life or relation to it. If you want a substitute, mushrooms are much better and will not mess you up and cause more trauma down the line. Synthetic substances have no fail-safes, no guidance systems, so you need to be disciplined and Self-realized to utilize without risks, and even then, you will naturally gravitate to what is more natural. We must choose Truth over "feeling good" and we will always feel good. You are always in control.

With all due respect to you, have you ever tried mdma? I never ever achieved natural state even one billionth of what mdma can do? Again I am not being addictive to it, but to admit, it’s such an amazing feeling, when you get a chance to dive into heaven. I know this is not the answer and every spiritual teacher will tell you to get into bliss naturally. But let’s be all honest, can you naturally achieve such states? I personally cannot and nothing helps me even meditating. Again I have full time job and I do not spend so much time on it anyways. But once in a blue moon you can treat yourself. Hence that’s why I started this thread to see natural alternatives because mdma is not a healthy med.

If you don't allow yourself to feel the bottom level of emotions you're capping the amount of positive emotions you can feel. If you wanna go higher and feel higher vibrational emotions, you must become ok with feeling lower vibrational emotions. You cannot embody bliss without any roots. It's not about avoiding feeling bad and trying to mask it with good feelings. It's about feeling whatever rises up and transforming it. That's true emotional maturity.

I experience more ecstasy when I focus on bliss, do what I love and am passionate for, fasting, fruit, cacao helps sometimes. MDMA pales in comparison to true inner peace, freedom, bliss, joy...

This is inconsistent with other reports that say that god is infinite bliss and orgasm.

If suffering is imaginary anyway why feel the need to justify it? The fact that it’s imaginary and that that imagination alongside time will fade away back into infinite unchanging bliss justifies everything in the end, no matter how shitty it seems.

I am there where all paradoxes are Beyond everything and nothing is where I reside. Existence and non existence in one. Complete stillness and rapid movement. Total goodness and absolute evil. Complete free will and determinism. Utter despair and unimaginable gratitude. No way out, freedom at every turn. Total perfection and fucked up nonsense. I am that which I am not. Nobody seeing through no one. Emptiness and substance one. Nothing to stand on, firm ground everywhere. Tears of terror and bliss. Nothing more real than the dream. Paralyzing fear turned into courage. Nothing more deserving of love than the unlovable. Being awake the most deceptive form of dreaming. Suffering necessary joy. Words the only way for the unncomunicable. Everything equally important and redundant. Love the final enemy of the self. Accepting denial good way to flush out resistance. Brutal honesty just another lie. Transcendence the best way to be brought back to reality. Years of work put into one second of closing all doors to self forever. Saving yourself to save no one. Saying no sure way to be smothered by yes. Beyond space and time I am, bound only by a lie. Lifetime of confusion for one second of earthshattering clarity. Lifetime of self hate for one second of life changing self love. Balancing the known and the unknown only with faith. Having faith only in the unavoidability of love. Destruction of the interior for the new creation of exterior. Non experiencing every experience imaginable. Wanting not to be so much you're only left with being. Giving up yourself to gain yourself. Removing your eyes to see yourself. Always moving, never going anywhere. Those are all the things that I am and I am not.

I don't know if this expands the perspective, yet I've done DIRECT... meditations of pain within this expansion and contraction paradigm, and if I play out the scenario there is no point of existence even suffering. That is how simply it would be. Pain can move you into absolute fullfilment. It has a very satisfactory quality. You can basically become blissed out and burn yourself without experiencing pain like the vietnamese monks did during a protest, from my type of understanding. Taking full responsbility for the information. Although this is more jhanic from my understanding and has nothing to do with consciouness. It's more of a byproduct of other types of meditative work. Some "schools" deemphasise this. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do DIRECTLY, with consciouness. Bliss states and joy != consciouness, that is at least my experience. It's more restful and equanemous, yet that is not consciouness. I presume high states of consciouness can be blissed out with jhanic type of samadhi gradations... so... you see the whole point of it. The paradigm that I did: https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_painprocessingalg.pdf The deep state of bliss would evaporate any cravings, yes this is even mapped out I bet in some buddhist type texts. This is nothing very new, yet very difficult to attain. These states are jhanic not god-realized, it's more of a subset of subsets within consciouness work sort of. From my POV. Blissed out there is no problem. Although IIRC even this is also suffering, so you are also correct in some aspect. When I recall some of the book reading, I did here. Might be no end to it as long as there is a physical body, besides very very deep states of bliss from jhanic type work. Even in higher bodies "kaya's" ... it is very possible suffering is there, yet that is very advanced.

No. Your work is not at all spiritual. Your work is about mysticism. A lot of people will awaken following your methods (not me because my physiology unfortunately cannot handle psychedelics), but no one following your methods will transcend suffering. You can claim mysticism>spirituality (and I mostly agree with you btw) but that does not in any way change what they are. Of course, wrong expectations about methods you employ will fuck you in the ass. Which is why making the distinction between spirituality and mysticism is so crucial. No shit. Forget 40 years they must know this before they even begin, nobody that isn't ignorant ever said otherwise. Many other practices lean towards spirituality rather than mysticism Being freed of suffering is not a 'perk'. It is the very function of such practices. I'm not saying it's not a waste of time because I simply don't know but am committed figuring things out as I grow. "The downside of pursuing only mysticism and not liberation is that there is no guarantee that you will become free of suffering and full of bliss. In fact, without training for those things I pretty much guarantee you won't get them." I reiterate; Spirituality=liberation Mysticism=understanding This distinction is not only accurate but very useful. It did not come from me, it was observed thousands of years ago. Do not ignore its value.

Understanding is great -- it's certainly better to understand than not to understand. But you can't really enjoy life, if you don't dissolve your karma. I think true spirituality is not really about understanding but about accelerating a process that is natural. Sadhguru talks about the dissolution of karma here: "A spiritual path means we want to set your karmic process on fast-forward. We want to take a bigger load of karma than the allotted load because we don’t want to come back and do the same thing again and again. We want to finish it off right now. This is a conscious choice one has to make – do you want to slowly work it out or do you want all the nonsense to be over as quick as possible." - Shut Down Your Karma Factory – Part 1 (sadhguru.org) More resources on the dissolution of karma: Death and Dissolution: The Role of a Master (sadhguru.org) ET_Mar2008.pdf (ishafoundation.org) Karma People like Adya, Hawkins, and Jed allude to the same thing, but they don't talk about it in detail like Sadhguru does. "You tell the universe you want some sort of spiritual achievement – awakening or enlightenment or higher consciousness or whatever – and instead of your life becoming wall-to-wall bliss, it turns to shit." - Jed

1) There is no guarantee those dogmatic practices will get you any ultimate understanding. 2) Manual practices are still useful and important. I don't agree with such a distinction/framing. I consider what I do and teach to be the highest form of spirituality, the very heart of it. Any spiritual practice which doesn't result in a deep understanding of what Consciousness is, is criminally negligent. And people need to be made aware of this. It does no one any good if you get tricked into doing 40 years of Buddhist practice, only to finally be told: "Ah, well, but it was not designed to produce and understanding of Consciousness." If your spiritual practice doesn't produce consciousness into the nature of God, then it's a bad practice, regardless of how much is frees you of suffering or any other perks. The yoga rabbit hole is deep. However, all I said is that doing dogmatic practice offers you no guarantees of understanding. If you want to gamble on it, that's up to you. My fundamental problem with such spirituality is that it's based on blind adherence to a set of practices for decades without any idea what the result will be and what gaps you will end up with in your understanding. It's equivalent to stumbling upon a map and deciding to devote your whole life to following it, because you believe it will bring you to the promise land. But in fact you have no way of knowing where that map will take you. It might take you to stupid land. I have never taken his martial arts workshops. His consciousness workshops are a combo of theory and a bunch of class exercises with partners. Each workshop lasts about 1 week. They are very good. I don't know. I'd have to think about that. I like Vernon Howard. I like David Hawkins. And others. Although that doesn't mean I agree with everything they teach. My claim is that the entire purpose of Consciousness is self-understanding. There is no other game in town. Everything else is just entertainment until you die. Yes, eventually Consciousness's understanding of itself becomes so high that it reaches Omniscience and physical existence itself becomes unnecessary. The downside of the understanding path is that there is no guarantee that you will become free of suffering and full of bliss. In fact, without training for those things I pretty much guarantee you won't get them.

Hey @Ninja_pig! I hope you're holding in there okay! I know this stuff can be really challenging - I experienced something very similar over the past year and I'd love to share what it was like for me and how I've been finding my way out. I hope it's helpful to hear my story! I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but I know this is gonna be a bit of a long one Leading up to June 2022, I had done a substantial amount of spiritual work and I felt like I was on the cusp of something. I had some intense psychedelic experiences, meditated rigorously, and even popped into short non-dual states. But in all those years of spiritual work, I was still under the materialist paradigm and the illusion of a material universe. Sometime in June 2022, I took around 300 ug of LSD on a lazy Saturday. I had already tried 4.5 g of mushrooms and some NN DMT, so it's safe to say that I wasn't expecting that LSD trip to rock my world. But at some point during the trip, I fell into divine love and unity. I was writhing around in tears of pure bliss and had the realization that there is no physical world... there is only beautiful, loving consciousness made of nothing dancing in nothingness The realization had been building over years, but it snapped during that trip and cracked me wide open. It was the most beautiful experience of my life up until that point. ...and then I started to come down lmfao. There was a HUGE discrepancy between the love and truth that I experienced during that trip and what I experienced on a day-to-day basis during that time, and because of that, it threatened my ego BIG TIME when it came back online. It was essentially a massive episode of ego backlash immediately after my most ego-less experience! Leo has a great video about ego backlash. The way I understand it is that following an experience of love and truth, my ego was so threatened that it had to lash out with fear and delusion in order to stay alive... so it threw my worst fear in my face: Nihilism! All of a sudden, I started experiencing violent intrusive thoughts. I was so caught off guard because of what a beautiful experience I had just had on the LSD that I didn't even see it coming! But I was pummelled night and day with questions like "If God is whole and complete and you don't exist as a separate self, why stay alive?". Ultimately, these were fearful questions that had been in the back of my mind during my whole spiritual journey, and I believe that my ego used these as a last stand to fight against the experience of God realization that I was having. I felt existential dread every day for months, but I had this intuitive sense that the only way out was through. So I continued meditating intensely, reading, and of course, watching some lovely Leo videos to figure out what was going on. And the last time I tripped, I had a breakthrough! I realized that this fear, nihilism, existential dread, and even loneliness only happen in the human mind through ego-centric thoughts. In my most loving and truthful states after a deep meditation, there are no thoughts about that kind of shit... in fact, there aren't many thoughts at all. My mistake in dealing with my ego backlash was that I tried to fight my fearful thoughts with more thoughts! I thought there was a LOGICAL way out of it. But God isn't lonely, depressed, or nihilistic. God is love. And God doesn't need some external reason to exist. The point is itself! So anyway! Instead of engaging these ego backlash thoughts, I just do my best to love them and drop them. I get present and relax into the nonduality instead of going through thought loops about it! Because without the petty shit that my ego mind throws, there is no nihilism. There's just God! And nothing else. And now I'm back to crying my eyes out on the floor over the beauty of God! Full circle lol. Some helpful techniques include Vipassana meditation (or any meditation really), Leo's Satisfaction meditation, Metta meditation, and lighter, silly things that help me out of my head and into presence/love (watching standup comedy, appreciating some nature, laughing with friends). I hope you can gain something from hearing about my pitfalls and successes here @Ninja_pig! I apologize for the long post - this is just a topic near and dear to my heart and I wish you the best of luck working through it. It's been a beautiful milestone on my journey and I know it is for you too Also shoutout to my boi @Leo Gura the spiritual goat - thanks for helping me to realize nothing heheheee