Water by the River

from my previous post "Then: When you are fully empty and nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves, at some point you will directly have the realization and understanding that the same Consiousness that you are is in the "other", having arisings of the separate self-feelings and -thoughts, being believed and not seen through, just in the same way it was with you for a long time. Then, these dry perspectives explained above become a lived and felt reality." It is a part of Awakening to feel that the real You is looking through all beings/perspectives. Sorry if my answer was not clear. Leavitt has that in his book, a beautiful description. " ... or others just act in accordance to the ONE intelligence but they are dead on the inside (no life inside, no conscious experience, no pov)". Feel into the subjectivity of other beings/perspectives, and deep into your own subjectivity/Awareness. And see what you find. Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj — 'The consciousness in you and the consciousness in me, apparently two, really one, seek unity and that is love.'

Since Reality contains both these infinities, well.... There is an infinity of differently large infinities, see Cantors set-theory. That is really good news: Absolute Reality does not need to imagine all Lilas to go on infinitely. There can be choice. Not all crap has to be imagined. And the opposite view of your existential worries: You will get to experience all beauty, love and adventure imaginable. >It bothers me that God is so unconditionally selfless and has an infinite capacity to remember/forget aspects of itself. >Do you deeply fear that all the consciousness work you do can simply be forgotten by God in an instant and suddenly God imagines itself to be a rat in some sewer after imagining alien consciousness? >This is a deep existential crisis for me That view is deeply dualistic, and cured by a change of perspective happening at Awakening: What you think you are (separate self) is an illusion (moving/arising in you), what you really are is Reality itself (which can not loose or gain anything), and It calls all the shots. It can never die or change. It also doesn't suffer, it has the Illusion of suffering moving in it. It never gains or looses anything. > Why do all this work when you simply can forget all of it as if it didn't even exist. Because what you can gain is so good that it is beyond your wildest dreams. And you actually are It. And you will put the work into it, get to understand/experience it at some point, this life or one of the next. It/You (with a capital Y) decides what gets manifested next: What happens after death, or "You are the only game in town": Francis Lucille "How Is Consciousness Experienced After Death? (Meditation 1 of 24)" > Has God put enough pointers in the imagination just so that it can find its way back? "Ignorance is a bad idea only from the vantage-point of ignorance." But at the end: You need an Awakening of what you really are to fully understand that. But don't worry, the real You can never loose or gain anything. In reality it is all a big joke. And the joke is literally the illusion-separate-self you imagine yourself to be. One day you will laugh, and be fearlessness itself. By knowing what you really are, ever have been, and never can not be. And by knowing and understanding the structure of the "you" having these fears. Hint: What is the you that worries to loose its Awakenings or Enlightenment again? Illusion-arisings (feelings and thoughts) of a separate self moving in that which you really are. You can not fake this understanding, nor just think your way through it. You need an Awakening into what You are, and what Reality is. All of what I have written above is prelimary to that. And also a very true perspective: "Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour". Why? Because in Lila Karma holds. It can bite back, it is still valid. Cause-effect. Reality is smart, way smarter than the small separate self. So if you think as separate self "Ah, its all a big joke, I do what I want, who cares", bad bad bad idea. If a separate self thinks that, that thinks cause-effect or Karma doesn't hold... It will suffer, and not get to liberation or even relative happiness, until you correct that specific ignorance. Either you have realized what you are, or you better don't fool yourself as separate self "nothing matters"-style. Suffering, or something has to rout you back home.... Its either suffering or understanding. Luckily, at the end, You are It, so you can not avoid going home.... and then, if You want, on another adventure again to express your love. Selling water by the river, "the wave fearing to loose knowing to be river-water"-style

. I agree with all my heart. > The whole point is that Infinity is inexhaustable. GOD is a mystery unto itself. You are not going to achieve specific omniscience, but you can get general omniscience. The general structure of Reality can be understood (Awakening, Enlightenment), the specifics continue to get explored. Imagine: "We" will NEVER run out of new adventures, worlds and realities! In the beginning when I started realizing what that infinity actually means, I was scared and in awe of such a vision. In the way of the definition of awe: "an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, fear, etc., produced by that which is [infinitely more] grand, sublime, extremely powerful [than oneself], or the like: in awe of God", Wikipedia. I had to step back, my character reacted a bit ... shocked. Luckily, I was at a stage where that reaction already mostly flowed through my being without rocking the remains of the separate self character too hard. In the meantime, this insight became the most wonderful thing. "We" will never run out of wonders to explore. An infinity of infinities. Something I would not have anticipated is that this initial insight transformed into a deep appreciation of the beauty of this world, of this one reality of infinity. Because what is then to do here, if even God can't empty out this infinity of Lilas, and has to explore them to know and realize them "all"? At least for me, the spontaneous answer was and still is: Enjoy the beauty of this world. There is so much wonder! Enjoy every detail, nature, region, cultures, of this planet Earth ... That insight brought much joy into my life. Selling the manifested beauty of the Water by the River...

Your perspective on that is already quite good. I would suggest to add these three perspectives: 1: -> The infinite perspectives in the Non-Euclidian-Space as approximation 2: When allowing for forgetting in time, then also allowing for forgetting other perspectives right now, or in "space". 3: The Awakening to the Absolutely Empty Subject that you (and all beings) really are. Any boundary can only be imagined within that. That is why you have to be fully empty to understand Absolute Reality. Then: When you are fully empty and nondual, perceptions perceiving themselves, at some point you will directly have the realization and understanding that the same Consiousness that you are is in the "other", having arisings of the separate self-feelings and -thoughts, being believed and not seen through, just in the same way it was with you for a long time. Then, these dry perspectives explained above become a lived and felt reality. You can not "think" or reason your way to these Awakenings. But with a perspective that is actually close to how things really work, it calmes your questions (mental arisings in your mindstream, which also include separate self-feelings and separte self-thoughts) on this, and make you rest in the Suchness, resting in the infinite Abyss of Empty Nothingness that you are. And then you are open for these Awakenings. You can't force them (that would be generating separate-self arisings, or artifical activity as Daniel Brown calls it in "Pointing out the Great Way"), but you can make your mindstream open and compatible/available for them (Evaluating these Koan on Psychedelics for sure also helps). More on that in the chapter on Non-Meditation Yoga in this book. All waves on the river are the river, watching the river, and are not separate from the river. There is only be the river. All form that can arise have to arise in Reality/Consciousness, including all imaginary boundaries. If you fully understand the structure of your perspective in this life, you can generalize this understanding for all possible perspectives. Since any boundary or border between any perspective can only be form in consciousness. How can you define any outside or inside if any boundary marking this boundary would be an arising in Absolute Consciousness? How can there be any time in it, besides and imagined arisings moving in it, imagining all past and future? What has to be there before every beginning and ending? What are you? Can you ever get truly "outside" of Yourself? And you can not say anything "positive" about this reality that you are, the Absolute Subject, since that would be a form, and arising, arising in it/You. You can only say what it is not. Neti Neti. "It" is Reality itself, unlimited, infinite. And it has the potential for sentience, perceptions perceiving themselves, as soon as forms arise. But this sentience is also empty, it can not be pointed to as arising or form of any kind. And yet, all of the infinite dimensions and forms arise in It/True You. You can describe the infinity of all arisings/forms of infinite dimensions/multiverses. But that which is truly infinite, what Absolute Reality/True You are, has to be realized and awakened to. That is why smarter people than myself mainly used Koans like the Clap of the one Hand, or An ancient pond/ a frog jumps in/ the sound of water. But the perspectives explained above were helpful for me to relax my philosophical mind with helpful perspectives that were close to how things really work. To be available for the real Awakening. Selling Water by the River

Enlightenment is in most definitions defined as seeing that all appearances arise within the infinite you, being imagined by you, through you. And you are that, the Totality, Tat Tvam Asi. That includes all arisings, including the feelings and thoughts of the separate self, including memories. And of course the boat (all spiritual teachings) that carried you to the other shore, that you cast into the stream after crossing over to the other shore. They also arise just in you. Reality/True You includes every possible arising or imagined form, n+1. I also agree that Just experiencing or becoming Emptiness or Nothingness is not sufficient. You can experience the Godhead as state (Cessation, Nirvikalpha), and even experience yourself as Nothingness in a nondual infinite state, and it is not yet IT. Why? Because there are still a very very subtle feeling of Inviduality, of being separate, that will continue appearing in you. Even if it is just a very subtle "Nothing" watching the infinite. And how to get the Realization into daily life? Like, seeing the whole infinite appearance bubble arise within you in daily life? Learn to get proficient in spotting this last feeling of indviduality/separateness, and cutting them off before they fully rise up and elaborate, put You under their spell, before they get believed. A High-Speed-Search-Task for the Emptiness of the separate self arisings, as Daniel Brown once called it. And when you are fully empty (your personality is not gone, it continues working more efficient and better than ever, its just blows like the wind through the Totality that you are then), you can sustain that. Nondual, infinite, blissfull, the not so separate self or character moving in you like the wind. You realize that you have always been that Totality, before with the illusion of something separate appearing in it. @Leo Gura : I am (at least in my understanding of your writings, especially the one above) very close with my definitions of these terms to your definition on God-Realization/Enlightenment. I understand why you put so much emphasize on understanding the points you mention above, because its sooo easy to stop short, and various teachers like Jac O'Keffee or Wolinsky, Massaro (I know...), Wilber, Davidya, even Bassui a few hundred years ago.... also emphasize that a lot: Further, never stop short. It is so easy to fool yourself, and stop at Nonduality with a separate self still left and not fully seen through. I also like your wording of imagination more than the classic buddhist wording of "empty or empty of inherent existence", the question of BiploarGrowth. ("Could you define imaginary as “something not having inherent existence and being completely reliant on Consciousness/You to appear”?). So, at least in my humble opinion, the more or less only point where I put a different emphasis than you (yet, which at least in my experience, has a drastic impact wether you can carry this realization into daily life), is: This last quantum of getting totally empty of the last Individuality/separateness-arising-items arising in you, not a lense seen through, but a lense fully transcended moving in you and not seen through, which enables you to sustain this Realization sobre without pychedelics, and to get it totally unbiased of any last separate self interpreting lense. @Leo GuraLeo, just one question: Where is your line of kicking out people? I understand that probably most people who write in a not so polite way or are making fun, or being ironic/sarcastic in a not so light way, or are being arrogant, are probably not writing that while being aware of their True Nature (at least while writing it, yet some may be), but are a bit annoyed by some manifestation in their visual field (which in that case happen to be your writings). So, for them, a little challenge: How about writing it being aware that Leo is actually fundamentally not different from you, and writing your message in a loving way, even if you feel the urgency of critique? Writing while not rejecting parts of your visual field (in that case, Leos message)? I respect you and your work (which is marvelous in so many areas). I just have a different perspective on the utmost importance of getting fully empty, seeing the separate self arisings in real time fast enough and not getting hypnotized, and to be able to carry that realization described above into everyday life, and the ensuing happiness/bliss that it brings. Utmost at least in my experience, because it made the difference on so much more happiness and bliss that has come into my life so that I can not honestly write about this topic without mentioning the experience I had with this aspect. Let's respectfully agree to disagree on that one point? Namaste and all the best! Water by the River

That is not my experience. At some point you take the practice off the pillow into daily life. There are techniques for doing that (for example the Mahamudra-practices described in Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown). Then, it would simply be rather unpleasant to not continue doing it. And the energetic shifts towards emptiness and nonduality continue and increase. I can imagine that falling back happens happens with something like only sitting-meditation concentration style or Koan-style (Zen, or Theravada-style). But I don't know, that is not the system I used mainly. At least according to my experience, it doesn't happen with something like the Yoga of One Taste of Mahamdura or the Yoga of Unelaboration/Skill of Recognition (Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). I don't see how that could not stick. And I don't think Genetics is the main part. I didn't have any great genetics, it took me around 15 years+, but only because I didn't get the efficient techniques at the beginning. If I would have been coached in the right way, it would have been a lot faster. Looking back, using the right techniques is so much key. If you don't, you can bang your head against the wall (or rather stare at it) for a looong time until something happens. You will not get somebody who failed at most stuff at life and without discipline there. But using the right meditation-techniques and diligence, and as soon as possible roll that out in daily life, then you will be doing fine. General understanding of the technique, diligence, and finding soon a way to make it pleasant. I believe that is key, at least it was for me. If you look for example at Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown, you have around 300-400 pages on these techniques. It is a very clear defined step-path, with many sub-techniques for each stage. The Tibetans have been doing that 1000 years, and it is in my opinion its the most sophisticated system on the planet. The Zen techniques (Koan and just sitting) look rather.... well, rudimentary compared to that. At least in my perspective. And the Theravada-techniques are not at that level of sophistication. Also just my perspective. If the meditation doesn't get pleasant after a certain time, in my opinion one is either not using the best techniques available, or is doing something wrong. Concerning the marvelous spiritual genetics topic: Here we are, in a forum in large parts based on Self-Help and quite a part of Self-Help on male-female dynamics, and there it is forbidden to blame looks, but with meditation we blame genetics. Without really knowing and having no statistics, Just because our meditation technique feels bad or boring (maybe the wrong technique, maybe there is some better stuff available?). I didn't have any special genetics for meditation, meditation was hard and not pleasant at the beginning, that is why I didn't do too much at the start. Then I stumbled (or rather read about all the different systems) over the right technique, and to this day I marvel on how infinitely much better that made my life. Today, Selling water by the River, Self Help Mindset Flavor! ( : sorry, just kidding. But I really mean all of the above. Never limit the belief in what you can achieve. Of course, don't be unkind to yourself and overload you, but never stop believing! Here the 2-Year-Old with nearly most of his skin burned who went flying Air Force Jets, including the fastest of them: How do you think that 2-year-old would have gone for meditation? Get blocked my limiting beliefs?

Selling water by the river. Since "you" already are IT.

Selling Water by the River, todays water batch: Difference between Awakening and Enlightenment: Enlightenment: You had to cut/transcend every subtle separate sense feelings/thought (very subtle ones, very hard to spot). Then you are fully empty, which is your True Condition. Then, all separate self arisings arise in you, and move in you, but you are not only them. They move in you like the wind. The wind is also you, but you are not only the wind. They are fully transcended. Why is that necessary to fully understand Absolute Reality, or what You are? What you are can be fully empty. Like, nothing at all. Total Nothingness. When no arising is there, Absolute Reality/You is unaware of itself. But with the potential for sentience if something appears (for example, check Hawal and Massaro books). You are still there when all arisings disappear (Nirvikalpha, Deep Sleep, your face before your parents were born). And if you want to understand what You are while forms still arising (like, in normal life), there can not be a subtle separate self/anything cutting the one infinite Unity of the Real You/Reality into a felt subject (Awareness) watching Infinity, even if it feels nondual or infinite. It has to become perceptions perceiving themself, no separate self anywhere to be found. You can not have separate Awareness separated from the field. The infinite field watches itself, literally does. And your body-mind moves in the Totality that you are. The thoughts and feelings of the former separate you are moving in in the True You like the wind. The bliss/love you generate in that state without needing anything external gives you autonomy from chasing externally generated bliss via experiences. It gives you total absolute freedom and love (Bassui below: You will be entirely free) If you understand that for your perspective, you understand that this holds for the structure of all perspectives/beings, for the whole Absolute Reality. Why? Because all perspectives are only form arising in the Absolute, any boundary from one perspective/being to another is either forgetting or form arising in Awareness, seeing itself. The advantage if do that sobre: You need a high developed state of nonduality/nonlocality/centerlessness/mere appearance of the visual bubble. You get that via meditation done correctly. Which doesn't need to be unpleasant or hard (although it normally takes quite a while), at least if done correctly, see for example Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown. If you feel centered in your head, and the outside world appears as solid, you can not understand the Nature of Reality, impossible. So this state is necessary for Enlightenment. But not sufficient. From that stage (Yoga of One Taste) for example, you can continue to dissolve the last remnants of the separate self (for example, Nonmeditation Yoga). And then you can have Insight into what you are. You will not miss that, its definitive. Also, and most important, you got a built in safety check/quality control: You will not cross over to full Enlightenment without fully transcending any and all separate self arising coming up (and the visual field being Nonduality, centerless and infinite). You can't fool yourself here. And you will understand when you are there. Why it is absolute. Awakening: The energetic state of Nonduality/Unity/Infinity with some remnants of separate self still not fully transcended, you can also get by Psychedelics. Which of course is useful in order to have an idea of the goal, a feedback loop to build this nonduality-state via meditation, on and off the pillow. But here, you get the nonduality/mere appearance with subtle remnants of the separate self still intact. You don't have the build in quality/safety mechanism of classic Full Enlightenment. So it is very easy to confuse these experiences for the final Realization of what you are. Everyone having experienced it claims this on the difference between Awakening and Enlightenment, see for example Frank Yang/Ralston/Wilber/Jac O'Keffee/Steven Wolinsky/... (anticipating certain feedback: "they are not awake, but enlightened". Well, with the definitions above I could agree). Enlightenment is in a different ballpark. And you can't imagine it without it fully happening. So it is not some mild form of "God-Realization", or Nothing. It is something of a different category. It is, to quote Ralston, fully understanding what You are and what Reality is. Without any separate self filters, however subtle, still active. So what happens if you value Psychedelic Awakenings or Understandings higher than fully being and realizing what you are? You guessed it: Reality doesn't let you off the hook, you still have psychological suffering. The separate self arisings cut you off from the full flow of love of your True Being for itself. So you need experiences to get this love flowing. For example the love you feel when understanding-experiences of the exquisite beauty of the design of Reality/Dimensions happen. Is anything with exploring Alien-Godminds wrong? For sure not, this understanding is probably among the most beautiful experiences you can have. I just feel it becomes problematic if you value getting the love the unenlightened separate self needs from these experiences, and valueing these understandings of Alien-Godminds higher than classic Enlighenment and fully understanding your True Nature, and resting in it. Why not pursue and value BOTH endevours on an at least equal basis? Not downplaying Enlightenment as somehow not on the same level or lower than any other insight into the appearance or form side of Reality (which is infinite). If what is stated above is correct, with one path one is lead to salvation (Enlightenment), and with the other path (Understanding/Awakenings), well.... best regards from Maya, but you get a medal from her with distinction for playing her game on the highest level possible. For the readers: You will probably not achieve higher level of bliss and love than your teacher using his teachings. And how these levels will develop: Well, we are in the prime seats here to see how it will continue. I don' think I have a high chance of convincing Leo. So that means that the job of convincing to develop via suffering (or hopefully only not being as happy and loving than one could be) stays where it always has been, and ever will be: Maya, CEO of Samsara. All the best, enjoy the ride and the show, and Namaste! Selling Bullshit Water by the River. PS: There is already water by the River, so I am too lazy to carry Bulls**t there. ( : Bassui: “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present. ... If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free. For the first time you will realize that walking on water is like walking on ground and walking on ground like walking on water; that all day long there is speaking, yet no word is ever spoken; that throughout the day there is walking, yet no step is ever taken; that while the clouds are rising over the southern mountains their rain is falling over the northern range; that when the lecture gong is struck in China the lecture begins in Korea; that sitting alone in a ten-foot-square room you meet all the Buddhas of the ten quarters; that without seeing a word you read the more than seven thousand volumes of the sutras; that though you acquire all the merits and virtues of good actions, yet in fact there are none.

Dear Leo, let's conclude it for today, it is late over here. I let the videos of the poems of Meister Eckhart, which I posted in my last post interestingly a minute before your reply, speak for itself. Every reader can then feel to which perspective their hearts and souls resonate. I believe that in your perspective you feel that way, and perceive that us true. May all beings find the most direct way to resting in their true nature and their own innate bliss. Namaste!

Truth, Beauty, and Goodness

There is an appearance of the forum you can see in your perspective. That mere appearance is absolute truth. It appears. You can not discuss its appearance away. A lot of interpretations-arisings-thoughts/feelings of it (like it being out-there on your screen, not appearing in You), or on who is reading that (separate-self arisings) , are.... well, not on absolutely solid standing... But take caution when going from the relative side of the street to the absolute side of the street. The wrong exits are: Nihilism (there is no appearance of a forum) and its twin brother: Eternalism (the forum is out there as self-existing objective objects).

If I understand you correctly, that experience of the brilliant design of Reality brings you joy, beauty and love. The Good, True and Beautiful. Love, Understanding and Beauty. These experiences have motivated humanity since the beginning. At least a part of it ( : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentals I can understand you here very well. I feel the same. Yet... if you mainly feel this love when having a beautiful understanding or insight into Reality, or God, Alien-Mind, whatever, then you don't have these experiences that open your heart on a permanent constant basis in everday life. And that is exactly the problem, which makes that approach to a high level Atman-Project. If you need these experience of understanding (the True of the triple Good,True and Beautiful) to get the love that is at the core of your True Being, then its something you don't have all the time. That love would also flow fully when you rest in your True Nature without a separate self blocking the flow of this love. Resting in your True Being in everyday life brings you this. It really does. The source of this love is your True Being, when the flow is not interrupted by any filter, lense of perception, localized center or separate self. After writing something tending a bit on the touchy side, I really hesitate to conclude with Selling water by the River. But it needs to be done, to not loose the humour inherent of this great illusion of ours: Selling water by the river, today including the fragrency of the Transcendetals "Truth, Beauty and Goodness"

Sorry, my paragraph you refer to (below) was not intended for you. It was a general statement concerning the goal of maximum exploration/understanding of form/manifestation mechanism: "And my only humble suggestion is: Before you go running exploring that which you can never finish [understanding as much as possible of an infinite reality] in this lifetime: Why not look deeply into the abyss of your own true being (which contains all form, but never is form, getting to the point where there is so much no center that all perceptions see themselves), learn to keep that ongoing in daily life, and be happy and in bliss, and go exploring these Alien-Minds then?" Sorry that this wasn't clear. And great that you are generally very happy!

Michael Taft once said something along the lines of: If you choose a teacher, be aware that someday if you succeed in her/his teaching, you could become similiar to her/him. In aspects such as general emotional state, happiness, loving kindness, or living a life free of psychological suffering. That is possible in realizing your True Nature, as countless enlightened beings have demonstrated. Or in becoming frequently suffering, unhappy, sometimes not so loving, like every other separate self that is not transcended in Enlightenment. You can chase your own tail, grasping for as much understanding as possible of the manifestation mechanism of your own infinite creation. And since an infinite Mind/Reality can manifest infinite realms, you can only investigate an infinitesimal fraction of it. An infinitesimal part of it. To say it in a non-mathematical way: Like, really next to nothing of it. Not totally 0, but practically nothing. As low as you can get, before getting at absolute 0. Thats the first big question mark one could see in that approach. You will never get "there", whereever "there" is. When will you be happy and free? Which understanding will bring that? But hey, the essence of the separate self is dissatisfaction, which it tries to cure not by deeply looking into its own nature, but by doing something else. That something else varies. Ken Wilber hat written a book on that, "The Atman Project". There he describes a ladder/pyramid of stages of Atman projects. Something that every separate self does to ease its suffering. It doesnt want to let go of its separate self, or doesnt know how, but something must be done to ease the regularly arising suffering. I must admit that understanding as much as possible of the manifestation mechanisms of infinite realms (while being assured its only an infinitesimal small are of yourself in your lifetimes) ranks pretty high on that kind of "Maslow-Pyramid" or Atman Project Pyramid. Probably more or less at its utmost top limit of development. Just an idea: Maybe is the circumstance that you dont get freedom from psychological suffering from that approach of trying to understand as much as possible of the relative manifestations of Spirit, a certain hint from Reality. That you go on trying to understand as much as possible, suffering from time to time all along the way, grasping for understanding indefinitely long, until by whatever influences you get enlightened, and really understand and know your True Nature. And then go exploring and understanding, but happily ever after and lovingly, or go fishing, or whatever you feel like then. Maybe is the fact that after you have had the Understanding that Enlightenment brings that you can live permanently in freedom from psychological suffering and that you can then literally create your own happiness by just resting in your true nature (without separate self arisings bringing dissatisfactions) a certain pointer? A certain indicator on the value of understanding Ultimate Reality (Enlightenment) vs. understanding relative manifested reality, or its manifesting mechanisms? And concerning the frog, the following just arose in my mindstream: A nice Koan would be: Did the frog that we have thrown into the blender had Buddha-Nature? If not sure on the answer, one can be sold for sure some water by the river. Disclaimer: While making this Koan, no imaginative frogs were hurt. Namaste and bon voyage ( :