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I have been chasing truth for years, I have had enormous insights, my life became amazing after this process, I live in total peace and contentment but at this level where it feels like the next step is enlightenement, which is like physical suicide...

You see the world with your own eyes.If you are in peace then you will see others in peace.It is OK not wanting letting go.I am chasing truth and power.They come through the death of the ego and you are even more happier.I guess you don't refer to physical suicide!

* Carlos Castaneda. He wrote "The teachings of Don Juan" as his dissertation for his anthropology study. He claims it is all true, but there are theories that he was a con-man who mostly got his ideas from other books that were in libraries at that time. The book "Journey to Ixtlan" (mentioned above) is one of his later books in the series he wrote. He had a whole cult-following. Including 4 women that lived with him in a big house he bought with the money he made from The teachings of Don Juan. "The teachings of Don Juan" is mostly excerpts from his other books, and is difficult to follow (in my opinion) without reading his other books. I loved the first few of his books. The later books seem to get less interesting. - The teachings of Don Juan - A separate reality - Journey to Ixtlan - Tales of power - The second ring of power - The eagle's gift - The fire from within - The power of silence - The art of dreaming - The active side of Infinity * Also interesting to read are some books of the women he lived with: - Florinda Donner: "Being in dreaming" - Florinda Donner: "The witches dream" - Taisha Abelar: "The sorcerer's crossing" * Also good to watch the documentaries that talk about the cult phenomenon: * In the 90's, he and his "witches" started the Tensegrity company. When you search for Tensegrity videos on YouTube, you'll notice that the instructor women seem kind of drugged or emotionless. After his death, many people were disillusioned. The women went out in the dessert to commit suicide. Only Taisha Abelar was later found. The others are still missing. http://sustainedaction.org http://www.4missingwomen.com

Is enlightenment better than non-enlightenment? Could taking psychedlics be considered a form of spiritual suicide? If not, what preparation should be done before hand? Wondered if it might be like changing gears on a car without the clutch.

@Thanatos13 It’s not something that is learned or understood. It just “IS”. It is repulsive to the self. It’s no-thing and every-thing. Every idea and thought you have just “IS” and has no more relevance than any other thought. The self and all it’s thoughts is all WITHIN it. For my self, moments of awakening came with self dissolution. Everything I thought and believed was stripped away. Early on, the loss of mental control was so terrifying my self wanted to commit suicide since that was the only way to regain control. If one is immersed in debating and “figuring it out”, they haven’t even encountered the rabbit hole yet. As the self dissolves, there are not the same highs and lows. The character still goes on, but there isn’t the attachment to the story or the chase for completion. The self gains nothing, it gets jack squat. The self gets exposed and loses all. There is no way to sugar coat it: the process involves brutal and terrifying moments to the self. Yet, its also beautiful and liberating. With that said, there are some beautiful duality teachings. And a reminder to all: dual vs nondual wars are against the TOA - so keep it civil.

Day 2: @Charlotte @egoless It is now the following day I started the day full of energy at a much earlier time than before. Although I didn't have the longest sleep I fatigued a little since then but my muscles feel much more relaxed, breathing feels more synchronised and my chest has this amazing feeling. My chest feels more open, warm and loving really. My morning meditation felt like a breeze and feel like many blockages have opened up. I have felt some minor purging such as I felt like having a good cry last night but didn't quite get to that point and just felt some fear when walking around in the dark which I haven't felt since a child. Did have minor thoughts of suicide when driving but I was very conscious of the fact they were simply thoughts similar to those I recall from about 3-4 years ago. Overall this feeling of love in my chest is nice, I'm sort of just relishing in that therapeutic feeling throughout my mind and body.

So for the past couple of months I have been really considering the pointlessness of life. I realised no matter what things i achieve or experience i have i will always seek more. And I think this is what comes with being born and being an animal. So I lost interest in everything, because what else is there to do. I can do stuff but I won't be satisfied with it and its only for short term excitement. If I was dead I wouldn't have to worry about having a house or eating food or maintatining relationships. Those things are cool, they keep me alive but that's a bit shallow. There is no purpose that can fulfil anyone. There is nothing to do. I kept telling myself that its logical to commit suicide. Not like a depressed sort of suicide but more in the sense that if you look at death and life objectively, death is much better than life as you are at peace and there is no suffering. Then I looked into leo's videos about enlightenment and it was like, ooh so i do need to kill myself to find fulfillment, but not my body, just my sense of self. But then what about everything else? All the birds and insects and fish and other sentient beings. Nature is really cruel and life keeps on living and feeding off of other organisms and dying and I think all organisms are stuck in this trap of chasing survival all the time. It's all we do, trying to avoid death, when it is the only thing that will free us from suffering ( apart from enlightenment ). This led me to thinking maybe the earth is better off with all life extinct so there is no more suffering for anyone. Like if nuclear war or some other disaster just wiped out all life on earth and made it inhospitable for any life. I mean I can become enlightened, but what about all the animals and other humans which will live their whole lives trapped in this ego dopamine chasing machine. Any thoughts on this? Does this make sense? Anyone else thought like this?

@Applejuice You may have lived a life without love. Why not try love? You may have lived a life obsessed with money. Why not live a life unobsessed with money? You may have lived a life which hankers to possess. Now live a life which is not worried about possessing anything. You may have lived a life of respectability - you may have always been considering what people think about you, what their opinion is. There is a life to live without bothering what others are thinking about you; there is a life to live individually and rebelliously. Don't commit suicide! Let your past commit suicide. Start living afresh, moment to moment. Don't live in desires, but live in a kind of desirelessness. You have lived a life of strain, effort, struggle. Now start living a life of relaxation, calm and quiet. And you will be surprised , you have been missing life, not because life is worthless. You have been missing life because you have been taught to live a worthless kind of life.

@Applejuice It's important to understand that it's ok to commit suicide though. It can be a stressful thing to carry if you have thoughts that it is wrong! Remember, you are free! You can't be happy until you understand that. Paradoxically, when you understand that you are free and perfectly allowed to commit suicide, then that option often falls away. The same with ego. When people think they are a solid self, then comes responsibility, and often what follows is that you don't take responsibility, since it's viewed as a burdon or a fear of screwing up. On a contrary, when you understand that there are no responsibility or a self, then "you" often start acting responsible.

@LastThursday Yeah you raised some good points there. I'm not going to kill myself, it's not that I am depressed or have a miserable life, I just see it as better than life because the ego is gone and I'm not chasing shit forever and ever like I am now. But When there is no body there is no more ego as it is there to keep the body alive. When the body leaves the ego will dissolve and not be relevant. I think it will end suffering yeah. I mean that's what enlightenment is all about right? killing yourself but not your body so you're no longer constantly in survival selfish mode and so you're no longer suffering. I understand now that enlightenment is really what I need to do and not suicide. But I'm saying if there are no organisms to play this survival game there will be no ego and no suffering anywhere. When we are not alive, there is noone to survive and there is no ego we are the ultimate nature of reality always. I see life as sort of a prison we come into and end the suffering when we're dead. But we are wired to reproduce so that there are organisms that will be stuck in this cycle forever until extinct. When there is no life there is no suffering. All that remains is enlightenment.

Just to pick on one thing you said, I hope I'm not being too harsh: So - you invented a story for yourself that logic equates to suicide? You should ask yourself some deep questions about that statement. Firstly. Why did you invent this story about suicide? What was the purpose for you exactly? Was it for attention, or self satisfaction, or to make yourself feel bad, or you think it will end suffering, or some other set of reasons? Meditate on that, question the hell out of it. Secondly. What is your definition of logic? To me logic is where you start from a set of assumptions, then through a step by step process you reach a conclusion. What assumptions are you starting from? For example is it: life = meaningless = suffering = negative, death = meaning = peace = positive, therefore death is prefereable to life? Thirdly. Have you ever been dead yourself? If not, then how do you know that death is peace or preferable to life? You don't. And lastly. Suicide is not a thing or an object, it is a process. It has a beginning, a middle and sometimes an end. So what exactly does this process mean to you? Does it always end in death? Or is it possible it could end in life full of misery instead? You should really be asking yourself: 'I will keep asking myself if I can really use logic to justify starting a process called committing suicide which may go very wrong and end in a miserable life instead?'

I'll just throw this little fact that I have sitting around in my head out there https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/07/drinking-coffee-may-reduce-risk-of-suicide-by-50/

I liked jed's work when i read through his books really loved the poetry aspect and his no bullshit teaching style, I have a notepad where I kept lots of his quotes/poems, will post some copy paste of it since it's too long. We do get stuck into the spirituality pamper sometimes for too long with it's dogma, yet it's for the faint of heart that gradually lifts us, although i see a loop of getting stuck in it forever even after an awakening experience just as leo mentioned. “Wake up first. Wake up, and then you can double back and perhaps be of some use to others if you still have the urge. Wake up first, with pure and unapologetic selfishness, or you’re just another shipwreck victim floundering in the ocean and all the compassion in the world is of absolutely no use to the other victims floundering around you.” “All fear is ultimately fear of no-self.” “The one and only truth of any person lies like a black hole at their very core, and everything else – EVERYTHING else – is just the rubbish and debris that covers the hole. Of course, to someone who’s just going about their normal human existence undistracted by the larger questions, that rubbish and debris is everything that makes them who they are. But to someone who wants to get to the truth, who they are is what’s in the way. All fear is ultimately fear of this inner black hole, and nothing on this side of that hole is true. The process of achieving enlightenment is about the breaking through the blockage and stepping through the hole.” “Maybe you think death is the opposite of life, or that all this death-awareness stuff translates into the end of happiness and good times, but this is not the case. Death isn't morbid, fear is morbid. Death doesn't oppose life, fear opposes life. To close your eyes to death is to close them to life: what could be more morbid than that? From your perspective, death and suicide are horrific and unthinkable. From my perspective, they are empowering and lifeaffirming. and I would look at any person that doesn't have an open, honest relationship with these subjects as themselves nine parts dead.” “I watch the group as Lawrence speaks. Its not always easy to remember that these people aren't like me: they look and sound awake, but they're not. They are asleep and dreaming. sleepwalking and sleeptalking. Their words make sense to them. inside their dreamworld, but from my perspective it's mostly mumbling. They seldom express a lucid thought or formulate a coherent question. In several minutes of uninterrupted discourse on Zen. Lawrence has not said anything that I recognize as being related to the topic of awaking from delusion.” Die while you’re alive and be absolutely dead. Then do whatever you want: it’s all good. Bunan You are dreaming that you are unenlightened. You are dreaming that you are awake. The question is: Why? The answer is: Why not? Jed McKenna The battle for truth Is waged upon untruth. When the flames have consumed all, and the smoke has cleared, Only truth remains. Destroy everything. Burn it all. Incinerate even your heart. Throw your soul into the furnace. This is the Great Conflagration. Nothing false will survive. Nothing true will perish. This is the process. This is the war. The battlefield is you. The battle is absolute. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. It will always be here, waiting. ~Jed Mckenna I am He. I am The Sage. I am The Superior Man. I am the Crown of Creation. I am daft, clouded, obscure. I eat when hungry, sleep when tired. I move with; not across, not against. I rub my chin at the appointed hour. I see only patterns. I have no eye for detail. I don’t go. Why go? Go where? It comes. I don’t try. I don’t do. Nothing goes undone. I don’t take sides. I have no preferred outcome. It’s all me. It’s all mine. Otherless, what’s to want? I have amazing powers! I get good tables in restaurants. I haven’t stubbed a toe in twelve years. I can destroy the universe with a thought. Jed McKenna The great path has no gates, thousands of roads enter it. When you pass through this gateless gate you walk the universe alone. Mumon The universe is the unity of all things. If one recognizes his identity with this unity, then the parts of his body mean no more to him than so much dirt, and death and life, end and beginning, disturb his tranquility no more than the succession of day and night. Chuang Tzu The sword is an ugly, meaty tool. Not one for pageants and ceremonies, not one for a collector’s wall, not one to show the grandkids. It has no scabbard, no tassel, no craftsman has left his mark. The handle is cracked and dry, the metal has lost its shine. Dull and dirty, pitted with age, dried blood caked at the hilt. Once it held a razor’s edge, and shone with the light of the sun. But now it sits unused, forgotten. When beheading time comes, I know right where it is. But beheading time is over. Why read about another’s sword? It’s your head that’s still attached. Jed McKenna As for the average sufi muslim that actually gets the oneness with god is quite different from the rest of what's practised right now, infact if i were to talk about onenessss with the muslims here at bahrain or UAE/kuwait/saudi arabia/qatar/oman etc any of the g.c.c countries, 90%+ would reject the idea of nothing and infinity true self and wouldn't even consider us as muslims. The same as how some muslims here reject ISIS as muslims even though they are muslims just in their own different distinction of what islam means to them.

I held back from joking about his name, I noticed this as well @Truth. @Joseph Maynor What else could you find that make him seem like a troll? That suicide post was so stereotypically evil to me it's hard to believe. Repeating that one idea over and over - letting thyself die - could be another sign but this is so @Etherish that I wouldn't be surprised if he really believed it

Nobody has wired their brain exactly like you have - so that makes you a FREAK. As for labelling, the universe is infinite. Thirdly, if this guy committed suicide the police would be all over his laptop and this forum asking Leo questions, so the fact Leo hasn't closed this thread just about proves this guy is a Troll IMO.

I think it could go either way. Regarding the suicide note Vanish left, when I was suicidal a few years ago I pretty much had a very similar thought process. Granted, I kept pushing forward and things eventually changed for me but I know from experience that that thought process really can come from a place of actually "wanting to be heard." I really agree with @aurum. However, if what he's saying is actually true regarding his stories leading up to that suicide note, e.g. that 25 day starvation period and meditating so intensely, I could see that also as an act of that shows his level of Zen Devilry. Overall I think this really does show the magnitude of what enlightenment work can cause and the importance of understanding what Zen Devilry is and how this path is not to be half-assed. Really shows that you are in a metaphorical sense really are playing with fire. I think this was especially important for me because I have a lot of emotional issues that I definitely could relate to with this kid in some ways and now I know just how those inner demons don't just automatically go away as a result of an enlightenment experience. If you're going to pursue Truth, do so with diligence and understanding of what it is you're actually doing.

@Truth All of this is relevant to what @Torkys means for the intro to this thread. That being said, might I suggest also considering kindness directly towards the "vanish" archetype (meaning suicidal people). How would you answer his questions? What we can do is have patience and not use egotistic impositions or advice about depression or suicide, except that advice as general as is possible for you in your current state. The more general, the more enlightened.

I dont know this person in real life, we have been communicating daily for a little over a year now over tumblr. The person is nice and we have alot of stuff in common (since we talk alot) but i notice they anger me a little bit too much to be friends. Basically this person is a heavy "past lives" believer and constantly is trying to reassure me that weve met before in multiple past lives. (Which i call bs). once they said they need to clear up their karma and said "im sorry ive abused you in the past life, im sorry i had more power over you.." and i do t know if this is just me being close minded but i think wtf? Then when i start getting pissed off they just say "its ok one day you will see what i mean" and whenever we thought of the same subject in a day, for example suicide in cults, they immediately point out how this is not a coincidence. Also they are from a south american country that they hate, so whenever i mention the word "brazil" or simply allude to that place they start attacking me "how could you, you know i have trauma from that word" etc. Last point is we were talking about religions, and he is a huge believer in witchcraft. He was talking about "low magic"-like spells, divination vs "high-order"magic like rituals i guess? And how the goal of both types is the same thing, the result of a spell or whatever. I then asked why does high order magic then go through all that extra hard work to achieve same thing as a low magic and then he said "wow i cant believe you said something so amateur" Is this person trying to manipulate me (i think the metaphysical ppl like to call them energetic vampires) or am i super close minded? Ive blocked them twice before but then i feel bad and start talking to said person again.

From my understanding, if you end the body with a mind that's still filled with rejection/attachment/fear, that's what you'll be faced with, and if letting go of it all will be too hard then (which I can imagine, after suicide especially), you'll be given a new life through workout the growth process.

I was deluded, I get it. But his excuse was really centered around "awakening". He tortures himself, writes this and commits suicide later: His excuse for doing the things he did was so convincing to himself that he asserted that's the truth and we all should know it. God fucking damn @aurum! You just had me, you get my biggest imaginary upvote. @pluto, this was beautiful. That quote spoke to me. Of fucking course @blazed. I can't deny that I created this post for selfish purposes. In case this does actually lead to a change, I could say I was the one who started it. Of course. I am an ego but this was - and is - the most authentic thing for me to do in this situation. You fail to understand something here. You say I create unnecessary suffering for myself - and for others. You try to show that talking about @vanish is useless and won't bring any good solely through reason. The resistance will always be there until it is released and authenticity is the source of all spiritual purification. I made people show their opinions and feelings (the latter most people here can handle). I manifested my life purpose in this very thread. The understanding that humans are rational or emotional creatures goes full circle. If you first try to calm down a person purely through reason and see it not working, you intuit that humans are emotional. But when you try to understand the root of the emotional problem, you see that it's rational.

Not sure why we needed a thread about it on top of his original thread. On average there is supposed to be 120 deaths by suicide per day on US alone. Then there is all the other kinds of brutal and unfair deaths. The importance of this person is only because you had some attention diverted towards him on this forum. The ego constructed a story/scenario and now the ego is fighting/debating about it about how sad it is and how reality should be all rainbows and sunshine. It's all in the mind. If he wanted to die and went through with it he manifested what his mind wanted at that moment. There's no point labelling it as good or bad. you feeling bad about it isn't going to change anything for him but it will make you unnecessarily feel worse. No one here is responsible for anything, and shouldn't feel guilt. Yes we all suffer when a loved one dies but it is all in the mind, the logical thinking and memory's and inability to accept change and let go of a person who was always bound to an ending. None of Leo's teachings points to physical death, only ego death or spiritual enlightenment, but one who seeks suicide will find what he ultimately seeks.

I feel like a prisoner in this world. I assume this is the reason why some choose to commit suicide. To escape the matrix. As the ultimate fuck you to whoever placed us here. I am not suicidal, nor depressed, but I admit that I do recognise some aspects of these conditions within me. I have adopted a non-seeking behaviour (or perhaps a passive-seeking behaviour). Why do I need to perform all these practices to realise something I didn't ask for? Why do I need to wake up everyday in a reality I didn't ask to be in, to follow a sequence of events that I don't believe in? It feels like groundhog day, except very very real. But I do admit I don't really know what real means. I don't have anything to compare it to. This realness just doesn't seem to give a fuck. It's indifferent. And for that reason I don't give a fuck about it... At times. At other times it seem to be one hell of an interesting place to be in, beyond beautiful. But this view is not pervasive. Is this an egoic mechanism at work, me trying to attack God, but only hurting myself in the process? Probably, but I can't seem to escape it. This perspective is persistent. The doubt and lack of trust I've experienced from the start of this journey has increased. It's like I'm trying to keep myself from knowing. Whenever I start to make progress in any practice, be it breathing exercises, Samadhi meditation, or psychedelic breakthroughs, I just seem to be pulled? back into complacency and homeostasis. It seems like I'm worse off than I was at the beginning. The frustration, wanting, needing, craving, desire is overwhelming. It makes my mind uneasy. Meditation does not help to lessen the uneasiness I'm experiencing. Neither does introspection. It makes it worse. For that reason I have considered giving up, or at the very least taking a break from all this. But I can't do that either. Not while I know that this path could lead to salvation. I'm feeling kinda lost at the moment, because I have no freaking clue what's going on, or what to do.

thats interesting.I had a forced nirvana enlightenment experience.I was in paradise...i saw the truth the love the freedom.But after two years i was fucked i was ready to suicide.So much pain in my heart.Is it attacks or is it just the + and - in life?

Once you transcend your consciousness into nirvana but not enlightened yet (not in kingdom of god state) your consciousness lose your body's protection and you are target for all kinds of vital forces that can make you to commit suicide. Buddha had many attacks of such kind just before his awakening under Bodhi tree. Second thing is the way he reached transcendental consciousness or witness state - ice bath and month in darkness and starvation - what the fak? Such techniques will drive anyone to insanity, people try to get fast results and eventually do wrong things, spiritual path has to do with energy and energetic mechanisms should be understood but he used brute force- God knows what happened to him but if it ended up badly then well he will probably reincarnate and start everything again, God is all forgiving.

That's really sad.But you know...at this point you feel nobody understands you.Suicide is a part in human nature.I believe he tried it.I also believe parents are responsible for that, in every circumstance a young individual commits suicide the parents are responsible.I believe parents are responsible for your 'normal' suffering too.Fuck people that become parents without real self development.In the forum there is so much pain...this is what forces us to change, if we were 'happy' we would not try.The only thing that matters is to stay alive.Its ok to feel pain to become sick but everything can be reversed if you are alive.If you trully believe you can change the situation everything is possible.I wish nobody feel the destructive pain of suicide.Pain can be destructive for the body or for the ego(which is the opossite)