Frank Yang on TOE with Curt Jaimungal Interview

[Someone here]

@Leo Gura i know this wasn't directed to me..but it got me curious and I have few  notes ..

Howsoever you turn it, if you are looking for a definition of enlightenment, you would be doing so with your own conditioning and your ideals and ideologies. You would be looking for your own conditioned projection. if you think all other conditions of “enlightenment” as you define it are fullfilled.

So, yes, it is possible for an enlightened person, like  you, to be arrogant. But can't you have empathy for other "versions " of enlightenment that you yourself used to sprout in the past ? You have a pinned thread about exercises to reach enlightenment from few years ago and it basically talks about no self. Zero mention of God.  I understand that that was years ago and you have been growing exponentially over the last few years ..but why can't you see that guy as similar to you ?he is just in the beginning of his journey. 

[Inliytened1]

Christ what happened to my group hug.

[OBEler]

I find Jaimungal could not have a real Interview with him. He was just asking one question after another without commenting. 

I think he did not understand anything really what Frank Yank would trying to say. 

The silence from Jaimungal after Frank Yank laughted was creepy. 

I think Jaimungal lacks experience this field and therefore cannot ask further. He should drop some psychedelics at least

 

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Christ what happened to my group hug.

There is no Christ, and there is no group, so of course there is no hug. Get with it! ;-)

[Sincerity]

@Leo Gura 

1. Do You think the pursuit of understanding is indispensable for higher consciousness/being? How do You think understanding relates to consciousness/being? Greater understanding = greater consciousness?

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't give a fuck about equanimity or surrender. That is Buddhist dogma. What matters is Consciousness and understanding of reality. You are chasing the wrong thing.

2. How do You think surrender relates to consciousness/being? Greater surrender = greater consciousness?

[Thought Art]

It’s interesting. I am realizing how deep, vast and challenging this work is. 
 

What would reality be if you didn’t have any of these frames? No Buddhism? No hinduism? No Christianity? No science? No Islam? No Judiasum? No isms. 
 

What would spirituality be? What would reality be? What would God be? 
 

A big problem is you folks have these frames that that are reinforced by social matrix norms, thought leaders, culture, group think, and years of hearing the same ideas over and over again. 
 

You think you are open minded but actually you are being dogmatic.
 

Then you demonize the tools, thoughts, concepts that exist outside these wall gardens you create and think people who have answers to things you don’t are just being arrogant. How would you know? Maybe nobody is cold and nobody is warm. Or, maybe some people are actually warm. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Thought Art

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Christ what happened to my group hug.

Hugs can't stop wild angry bears ? 

[Thought Art]

Some degree of conflict on forum is normal and healthy. 
 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Leo Gura

So, yes, it is possible for an enlightened person, like  you, to be arrogant. But can't you have empathy for other "versions " of enlightenment that you yourself used to sprout in the past ? You have a pinned thread about exercises to reach enlightenment from few years ago and it basically talks about no self. Zero mention of God.  I understand that that was years ago and you have been growing exponentially over the last few years ..but why can't you see that guy as similar to you ?he is just in the beginning of his journey.

It's okay to be wrong. But that's not issue here. The issue I have is with people who get into Buddhism and nonduality, and then start thinking they know everything, and start acting closedminded and gaslighting me about God, Awakening, Truth, Love, Consciousness, and psychedelics -- denying these things in one way or another.

This has become a recurring problem. I can give you a list of people who have come here to gaslight me about Awakening, and the error of their ways. Whether it was WinterKnight, Nahm, Frank Yank, Rali, or many others.

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

I think Jaimungal lacks experience this field and therefore cannot ask further. He should drop some psychedelics at least

Curt has done some psychedelics. Obviously not too much because he is scared of them.

1 hour ago, Sincerity said:

@Leo Gura 

1. Do You think the pursuit of understanding is indispensable for higher consciousness/being? How do You think understanding relates to consciousness/being? Greater understanding = greater consciousness?

Yes. Everything boils down to understanding. When I say "understanding" I am not just talking theory. The understanding I talk about requires massive levels of consciousness and direct experience. So it's not just conceptual. True understanding requires direct experience and Awakening.

Quote

2. How do You think surrender relates to consciousness/being? Greater surrender = greater consciousness?

Surrender is important in that your ego will not be able to manipulate its way to the highest levels of Consciousness. So surrender plays a role of course. But it is not an end in itself. Basically you surrender to Absolute Truth/God. The point is not to surrender, the point is to access God, by whatever means possible.

46 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

What would reality be if you didn’t have any of these frames? No Buddhism? No hinduism? No Christianity? No science? No Islam? No Judiasum? No isms.

What would spirituality be? What would reality be? What would God be?

Well, that's the trick. Deconstruct all that stuff and see what remains.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

51 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

What would reality be if you didn’t have any of these frames? No Buddhism? No hinduism? No Christianity? No science? No Islam? No Judiasum? No isms. 
 

all of that is pretty irrelevant imo. they are handles that we use to balance our ego, to make a solid story. reality is infinity. It is what manifests itself in a complete dissolution with 5 meo. the only thing we can do is become infinite and then, when the apparent limits come back, try to see through them, soften the solidity of the barriers and understand spontaneously, without clinging to any philosophical system

[Gesundheit2]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The issue I have is with people who get into Buddhism and nonduality, and then start thinking they know everything, and start acting closedminded and gaslighting me about God, Awakening, Truth, Love, Consciousness, and psychedelics -- denying these things in one way or another.

It would not be an issue if you were not Leo. It's all a big ego game, and you're only winning because you're the admin here lol.

[Someone here]

 

@Gesundheit2 He is partially correct especially about Buddhism.

Buddhism does not define God. Beings have levels of awareness .. some of these beings ( depends on which school of Buddhism ) function as deities. But there is no Creator, no single ‘god’, no CEO at the top. There is just ‘our’ Universe, floating inside the meta-Universe, with everything floating inside and part of it. The meta-Universe can create anything it feels like, because everything is already part of it, but it is not God

 

[Inliytened1]

25 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

It would not be an issue if you were not Leo. It's all a big ego game, and you're only winning because you're the admin here lol.

Its probably very annoying to hear people say psychedelics cannot awaken you or put you in a non dual state of consciousness.   (Sorry for using the term non-dual) so I can empathize with him.   At the same time, meditation can shift your consciousness into states you could not dream of, so that's bullshit too.  

[Gesundheit2]

@Someone here That's not my point.

My point is that all these enlightenment disputes are about narrative control. I'm offering a meta perspective here on what's going on. When someone says this is the right way and all other ways are wrong, then this person is trying to control the narrative. They maybe aware or unaware, that doesn't matter. But however you slice it, the assertion about right and wrong remains an attempt at controlling the narrative in the mind of the seeker. Like who the fuck can confirm any of all of this except the one person who is seeking?! No scientific method can confirm anything, and so-called "enlightened people" already disagree a lot about the most basic stuff, so we can't go with consensus either. There are clearly no objective answers here. So how can anyone claim an objective answer or to know "the truth"? And then they go on to tell you how to seek, because otherwise you're doomed. I know the one right way to seek. Everyone else is deluded. That is the game.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that this whole enlightenment thing is about selling confidence more than anything else. People are afraid of the unknown and they seek comfort in the confidence of their guru. This can happen on both explicit and implicit levels. Sometimes, the guru is very sneaky. They will act very confident and chill as if they know everything, without actually claiming to know anything, like Nahm for example. It's a very subtle way of controlling the narrative.

For me personally, I don't care about any of this. If you like Buddhism or Islam, go join an Ashram or a Mosque. If you don't like any religion and you want to find out for yourself, go find out for yourself. It's not my game. Your awakening is your awakening. Seek however you want, and I'll seek however I want.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Someone here That's not my point.

My point is that all these enlightenment disputes are about narrative control. I'm offering a meta perspective here on what's going on. When someone says this is the right way and all other ways are wrong, then this person is trying to control the narrative. They maybe aware or unaware, that doesn't matter. But however you slice it, the assertion about right and wrong remains an attempt at controlling the narrative in the mind of the seeker. Like who the fuck can confirm any of all of this except the one person who is seeking?! No scientific method can confirm anything, and so-called "enlightened people" already disagree a lot about the most basic stuff, so we can't go with consensus either. There are no objective answers here. So how can anyone claim an objective answer? And then they go on to tell you how to seek, because otherwise you're doomed. I know the one right way to seek. Everyone else is deluded. That is the game.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that this whole enlightenment thing is about selling confidence more than anything else. People are afraid of the unknown and they seek comfort in the confidence of their guru.

For me personally, I don't care about any of this. If you like Buddhism or Islam, go join an Ashram or a Mosque. If you don't like any religion and you want to find out for yourself, go find out for yourself. It's not my game. Your awakening is your awakening. Seek however you want, and I'll seek however I want.

Remember the metaphor I think Leo used about falling into a black hole?  Once you fall, you know, but you can't make anyone else fall into the black hole because there is no escaping it to bring back anyone else - not even for light..  They have to jump by themselves, or fall in.  

Edited March 8, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Danioover9000]

@axiom

On 3/7/2023 at 8:46 AM, axiom said:

You really can’t choose anything. It can seem that way of course, but if examined (which in itself is also choiceless), it can be recognised that the thought or the focus on the thought is never chosen. It simply appears.

Later, it can become very obvious that you are not actually there to choose it - but this can take many months, years or lifetimes (see my signature)

I’m not sure if you meditate, but after a week or two of meditation, a subtle recognition of choicelessness can begin to emerge. Eventually it becomes crystal clear and can be pretty amusing or shocking.

@Flyboy Give Leo a break  He may be “wrong” (and of course he is at the relative level), but he is also just an appearance like everything else. All part of the grand THIS. And he will get there eventually. Everything does. It’s a sort of entropic process and selfhood / ego is the futile fight against it.

   I don't want to get into a syntax/semantics argument, so I'll say that, IF I CAN HOLD AND PLACE SINGULAR FOCUS ON AN OBJECT/THOUGHT  AT WILL, THEN IT'S POSSIBLE. Maybe very few in the entire world can because of how social media/ Tik Tok corroded focusing ability nowadays, but I can, I've been doing concentration exercises with Crysty and meditating and we both can. Maybe you can't, or have a lower skill development? It does take time, but it's possible to hold a thought for longer times. 

[axiom]

Some might say that those who appear to get triggered relatively easily cannot be “awakened”, but in fact awakening has nothing to do with human behaviour. 

That is, Hitler could be more spiritually advanced than Jesus. Some of you could be more spiritually advanced than me.

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Honestly, I'm starting to think that this whole enlightenment thing is about selling confidence more than anything else. People are afraid of the unknown and they seek comfort in the confidence of their guru

No, the thing is real. I have thought more than once that Leo is delusional, that he is a narcissist, that the only thing he wants is to stand out and show that he is smarter than the others. I have come to the conclusion that this is not the case. Leo has found the real way to dig deep. This is real, they are not stories. If you really seek the truth, break the illusion and see and understand what you are, Leo has the key. it is not too complex. Deconstruct your mind until there's nothing left. do psychedelics, especially 5 meo and become infinite hundreds of times. and that's it. you need to have the firm will to do this to the end. a kind of vocation

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, the thing is real. 

But you see, this does nothing. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Inliytened1

[peanutspathtotruth]

9 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Someone here That's not my point.

My point is that all these enlightenment disputes are about narrative control. I'm offering a meta perspective here on what's going on. When someone says this is the right way and all other ways are wrong, then this person is trying to control the narrative. They maybe aware or unaware, that doesn't matter. But however you slice it, the assertion about right and wrong remains an attempt at controlling the narrative in the mind of the seeker. Like who the fuck can confirm any of all of this except the one person who is seeking?! No scientific method can confirm anything, and so-called "enlightened people" already disagree a lot about the most basic stuff, so we can't go with consensus either. There are clearly no objective answers here. So how can anyone claim an objective answer or to know "the truth"? And then they go on to tell you how to seek, because otherwise you're doomed. I know the one right way to seek. Everyone else is deluded. That is the game.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that this whole enlightenment thing is about selling confidence more than anything else. People are afraid of the unknown and they seek comfort in the confidence of their guru.

For me personally, I don't care about any of this. If you like Buddhism or Islam, go join an Ashram or a Mosque. If you don't like any religion and you want to find out for yourself, go find out for yourself. It's not my game. Your awakening is your awakening. Seek however you want, and I'll seek however I want.

This resonates as quite mature and clarifying. This thread was a rollercoaster, so many ways my mind reacted to all sides of it.

All of these charged opinions can be gladly dropped here and I'm going back to trusting the Heart and Being more than any of these words here.

Sadly, this discussion left quite a stark imprint of immaturity. The accusative, manipulative, judgmental, and even hateful ways of communicating show me that - no matter how true any of the claims are - the integration and emotional development of some actors here seems very poor. A humanity that wants to arrive at ultimate Truth and embody ultimate Love together needs to develop more refined ways of interacting - at least that's my point of view and a huge inspiration to go deeper into finding holistic and healthy ways of exploring how this could be done.