Major Discussion Of Actualized.org Teachings & The Future

[Agoy]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

but also if you disagree with core things I teach about Love, Truth, Consciousness, levels of awakening, psychedelics, and God-realization. If you have fundamental disagreements on these points, voice them out, say your peace, and then we'll see if you are suitable to stay on this forum.

First of all, I think you've handled the situation well, I think it's good to address these issues and not shy away from recent events by making a video 

I ofc don't think you condone suicide, or that anyone on this forum is responsible for the man's death.

that said, I do think the forum would be better if everyone were to speak in riddles less and celebrate the beauty of human existence more

as for the quote above, it's a weird one because I love what you teach and agree with a lot of the things, especially regarding psychology, politics and personal development, but spirituality too mostly. however, I still question some statements you make like saying you've reached 'Complete God-Realization',  with the issue purely being the use of the word 'Complete', and not you saying you're God-realized, as:

1.) To me, that would mean existing as pure infinite consciousness, not as Leo experiencing pure infinite consciousness from Leo's mind inside Leo's body, and so you haven't actually become infinite consciousness outside of the mind or body

2.) To me, 'complete God realization' would mean to know what is unknowable to humans, like where existence came from, how existence came to be, things that we can only speculate on as humans, but that actual infinite consciousness would have experienced

3.) you've said the same exact words during previous awakenings, when at the time they were your deepest ones, only to then say the previous time wasn't 'complete God realization' after a deeper awakening, and that this new time is. and no this isn't me not getting that each awakening was complete in and of itself, I get that, that's not what I'm denying, I'm denying that you are completely god-realized because you imo you can't possibly know whether or not you could become more 'God-realized' or not, and therefore imo can never you're 'completely' God-realized' , especially when claiming so as a human

3.) you claim you achieved this after 130-ish awakenings, but don't know what'd happened after, say, a 1000

4.) you've said many times that there are infinite degrees of awakening, so how'd you know you've reached the end

5.) as I've said before, think of all the psychedelics that could exist throughout the universe that could enable deeper God-Realization, or all the other species that could be more evolved at experiencing consciousness compared to us

6.) you always return to you after experiencing God, whereas imo to reach 'Complete God-realization' would be to be infinite for infinity

I also have a bit of an issue with how questions are avoided sometimes, like in this image, rather than acknowledging the possibilty of other psychedelics in space, or even the existence of space itself,  you just said 'all of that is imaginary', which whilst I obviously know you're getting at the fact we imagine space as a thought when we think of it, to me that's a fruitless statement in the context of that conversation, as I could say the 5-meo is imaginary, or the supermarket is imaginary, but you still use 5-meo to experience God, and the supermarket to eat, just like space is still there when you call it imaginary, and so it's really saying nothing when you say that and is just an easy way to avoid objections

lastly, I have a slight hesitance towards how people so dogmatically claim that 'all that exists is what the mind imagines/is conscious of', when for the mind to be able to imagine in the first place it must be supported by a beating heart, and to say the heart doesn't exist because the mind isn't imagining it seems counterproductive, as the mind can not imagine without the beating heart, and is to be dogmatic about the word exist, which means 'to live, to have reality', which you could say the heart does through itself. to say it doesn't exist, or the universe doesn't exist, when they're not being imagined, is to ignore the fact that all imagination is happening within the universe, which is non-negotiable and which we're always rooted too, so it just seems problematic to make claims so dogmatically just because we're constructing our own subjective experiences. imo just because the mind is constructing what it's experiencing doesn't mean the other things in the universe that the mind isn't experiencing are non-existent.

I think a better way to phrase 'all that exists is what the mind imagines/is conscious of' would be 'all one experiences is what the mind imagines/is conscious of'

 

this may seem like a lot, but really it's a few objections I'm sceptical of, in comparison to hundreds of things I do agree with

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Regan

[Consept]

21 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I have no problem with that. What I am taking issue more is to come here on this thread and complain that some people got triggered by his videos, when the very nature of the subject is emotional. Simple cause and effect. On this specific point, he's not having my sympathy, nor by calling this effect "cult like".  And this misrepresentation is quite problematic. Even though, I agree that some individuals who are using the forum on the regular have been particularly problematic.

If i got 40 messages aggressively coming at me in a short space of time Id have probably reacted the same way, theres levels to be being triggered. I appreciate though it is a very delicate subject and obviously peoples emotions are very heightened, im with you in that i probably wouldnt have talked about myself, especially not straight away. Also i dont feel like actualized.org is a cult at all but there were some other valid criticisms that i think were relevant and worth exploring  

[BipolarGrowth]

One thing I would caution strongly against is this subtle demonization of the mentally ill. I ran a poll a week or so ago to see if mental illness was as prevalent here as I intuited. The results came back that over 50% of people who responded had a connection to mental illness themselves in either having it in the past before consciousness work, a clinical diagnosis, or a conviction that they have mental illness although not clinically diagnosed. Results may be skewed some as mentally ill people could be more likely to respond to such a poll of course, but cut the result in half if you want. That’s still 1/4 of the community. If you really want to turn away the mentally ill or talk in ways that steer them away from the work, you are probably going to create more suffering and death than if you had simply accepted them and promoted greater understanding of mental illness in the community. 
 

Take the time to read the responses to this thread/poll. 

 

Also, so many people have been throwing around words like stupid describing not only Sunny’s decisions and thought process as well as labeling other people's opinions on the matter as stupid. What I say to these people is you know nothing of the nuances of human intelligence, or you have the understanding but are being lazy, myopic, and counterproductive in labeling people as such. Simply painting opposition as stupid is so ridiculous and damaging to the whole situation that I’m absolutely astonished that I have to even bring this up. Calling someone stupid is not being highly conscious in any sense of the phrase. Calling someone stupid in these situations helps absolutely no one. It triggers people so they lose all ability to connect with your perspective in many cases, and your labeling of them as such while considering yourself intelligent or at least not stupid, as I’m sure everyone saying this does, is creating a difficulty in your own ability to communicate with them, truly connect with their authentic perspective, etc. 
 

 

I think people are missing the point with Adeptus’ comments, video, etc. There are some biases at play for sure, but everybody should know that’s happening on both sides. I gave some criticism on his video and way of interacting with people too, so don’t think this a one-sided approach. 
 

He is actually quite open to actualized.org’s deepest teachings compared to the average person. If we can’t find a common ground with someone like him, this community better buckle up for quite the bumpy ride as popularity grows over time and more tragedies are sure to come due to sheer and unavoidable probability alone. He has done psychedelics and likely other methods and has shown to take spirituality as something important to him. Adeptus is just someone closer to being grounded in consensus reality (more aligned with current collective ego). If you easily discard this type of information, you’re setting yourself up to have more issues down the road. If we’re taking these teachings seriously, consider Adeptus as like a specific type of immune cell in your body. You are the Totality of Existence. What you call Adeptus is an integral part of You. Another human in your present moment awareness is like a typically autonomous function of your human body. You can’t control your liver too well consciously, but it’s still a part of you. Other humans are similar. Adeptus is not a liver lost to cancer or cirrhosis. He’s still performing a healthy role imo whether it’s a popular one to those here or not. I think it would be quite unwise to remove him from the forum and many others who are representing a similar perspective as him. If someone becomes a constant distraction and problem, that’s a different situation. He hardly ever posts. 
 

When an injury swells to a detrimental level, it’s still acting according to its purpose in trying to help the higher holon, but it is overcorrecting. Any response to this overcorrection is oftentimes bound to be an overcorrection of its own type which has its own collateral damage. In a similar way, very rarely do we see a completely and utterly proportional response which handles any type of interpersonal interaction perfectly. 
 

Adeptus, Leo, and other members commenting on that situation are still seeing too much of an “other” in the person in debate or disagreement, or at least it certainly appears from my perspective. 
 

I’m not free from any of these points as well. This post is an overcorrection. Don’t discard it though. 
 

I’m not some enemy of the community who is against Leo’s core teachings. This community and Leo’s teachings are very important to me. 

[Consept]

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@Consept I don't like to argue with you because you never show any understanding about my point and always tend to take me out of context.

I did not send him 40 messages in one go. So your wording is completely off.

It was me and him having a conversation over a whole 4 hour period on his channel. He was replying to my messages and I was replying to him.  I was compelled to reply to his messages because he was also constantly mentioning me. So I had to reply to all of his mentions. It wasn't only me talking. There was a back and forth exchange between me and him over a 4 hour period. It wasn't exactly a friendly conversation because right from the get go he was calling me a fool and not ready to discuss anything in detail but skirting around the issue 

In the beginning our conversation was friendly. It only got hostile towards the end 

However things cooled down between me and him at some point and I left his comments.

Please try being a bit considerate and understanding rather than trying to portray some sort of a nasty picture of me 

Arguments happen all the time. Especially when such videos are involved. I didn't personally attack him and I don't mind him attacking me either if he felt hurt he had every right to attack me.

Please don't try to make a big deal out of this. The video was triggering. Leo was also triggered. My comments were triggering. His comments were also triggering. It was the heat of the moment.. everything was triggering. It happens. 

You shouldn't take that to make me look bad

 There was nobody good or bad here.

 

@herghly sorry got tagged.

I understand, I was just trying to see it from his perspective, it wasnt really an attack on you personally I was just making the point of seeing why he would be triggered. But apologies if you feel attacked i dont want to make you feel bad or look bad and i do get that emotions were flying.  

I honestly try my best to see your side in any debate we've had and even if i disagree i try and be as respectful as possible, however i feel that you dont give much flexibility in your positions, you speak with a certain vibe of 'this is just how it is', which is cool but you have to appreciate you may not always be 'right' or there maybe a fuller perspective and at the very least it stifles the conversation. But we can agree to disagree if you dont feel that to be the case, we dont have to have a debate about it. Theres no hard feelings on my side and i hope none on yours 

[Dan502]

I like the way that Actualized.org explores a wide variety of topics from some very open-minded perspectives.

I also like the helpful community members and the fact that Leo is a very active participant on the forum.

I would like to see more sensitivity, for example the latest video starts by explaining that a person's family have informed us that a member has taken their life and then moments later says "I'm assuming it's true. Let's just treat it as though it's true... alright so let's say it happened". To me this came across as insensitive.

 

[RMQualtrough]

@Regan I cannot speak for others ofc but what you've mentioned is a thing I've given much thought over time.

What I have come to theorize is that, essentially, the Big Bang or w.e. is proposed as the beginning of Spacetime arose from Awareness/Brahman/Infinite Consciousness.

Everything else follows from there just as science dictates.

The brain is made of matter and matter arose from the "everything". I believe complex human consciousness to be quite accidental. I think what we experience is a huge conglomeration of acts of awareness... A robot vacuum is exhibiting an act of awareness when it detects a wall, you can bust out a dictionary and see that must be the case.

The brain I see as a sort of centralized hub which allows a person to experience the millions of inputs as a single thought thread. That is a conclusion I can semi support scientifically, you can look into things like the surgery which splits the brain and the impact on the individual's consciousness, or you can hum while mentally thinking of something else, or dream and realize all the landscapes and characters appear and talk without you seemingly directing it.

Consciousness as experienced is immaterial, proveably it has no size, etc. And same for elements of it such as the redness of red, the taste of chocolate. These are immaterial things. So I figure consciousness and those things are being grasped from somewhere outside of space and time.

You could never in infinite years reach into spacetime and grab the nature of these things because they are not physical objects.

There is no doubt that from a relative position messing with the brain can remove or alter certain things, for example red may turn to green. The wavelength of light is the same but the subjective nature of it can change...

All subjective things have the ability to cease into "nothingness" and also "come out of nothingness" literally, which I can also prove if desired. So that is why it is easiest to place them outside space and time so as to explain how it can seemingly exit and re-appear inside of it at will.

[Etherial Cat]

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

If i got 40 messages aggressively coming at me in a short space of time Id have probably reacted the same way, theres levels to be being triggered. 

I'm embarrassed because I can only agree that this member is sometimes difficult. Both externally and internally. But that person seems to benefit so much from the environment that one can also argue that this is what this forum is for.

Nobody here is a representative (except maybe Leo and the mods whenever they are operating through their pseudo) nor has actualized.org forum member as its identity as the end of the day.

16 minutes ago, Consept said:

 I appreciate though it is a very delicate subject and obviously peoples emotions are very heightened, im with you in that i probably wouldnt have talked about myself, especially not straight away. Also i dont feel like actualized.org is a cult at all but there were some other valid criticisms that i think were relevant and worth exploring  

I'm certain there was. I haven't finished the video yet.

The sensitivity and the emotionality around this topic makes it hardly the moment while considering all interest, which is why I've judged creating a video on this subject now as selfish. This has been derailing attention and adding salt on the wound while there was already a lot of fragility.

Anyway. I'll leave this discussion there.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Please, no more attacking Adeptus. Let him be.

I might do a live conversation with him in the future to clear the air. He can be reasoned with and he's not a bad guy.

 

[Agoy]

@RMQualtrough I agree! the source of existence runs through everything

I'm just saying that when one reaches God-realization, aka self-awareness that we're infinite consciousness, it can't be known that it's 'Complete' God-Realization, aka infinite self-awareness that we're infinite consciousness, as it's:

1. coming from our human minds, not as the source itself detached from everything
2. to say that is to say you couldn't reach deeper levels of awakening, which would mean awakening is not infinite if there's a threshold
3. how would you know there's a threshold? you'd just think you've reached it, but you'd never know for sure
4. who knows what else is out there in the universe that could help us reach deeper levels, or could help other species reach deeper levels. the truth is we don't know whether things of the like may exist

Edited May 21, 2021 by Regan

[RMQualtrough]

@Regan Consciousness has to be infinite. The terms are annoying because there are not enough. There ought to be a distinct term for consciousness stripped of the layers on top, and normal experience of what we usually refer to it as.

Anyway. The thing itself has to be infinite if it is not inside space. If it is not in space then literally it is sizeless hence it is not bound at all by space so it can be a point or an infinite.

There is no deeper awakening for the simple reason that it is completely irreducible.

When you are going towards these states, elements of you and your brain start to shut down. More and more shut down until you reach, you would hope, the most pure version of it that you can experience. Or close enough to logically be able to bridge the gap and feel what it is etc.

You cannot divide pure awareness into anything smaller because awareness is proveably binary: On or Off. There is no in between. When we use terms like semi conscious that is referring to the way a human being experiences humanness, e.g. thoughts and feelings, which meditation often tries to get you to detach from.

[Agoy]

i guess what i mean is, each awakening may be infinite in and of itself, but the understanding of that infinity can itself go on for infinity, making 'complete' understanding impossible to be sure of, at least when experienced as a human

@RMQualtrough

Edited May 21, 2021 by Regan

[cookiemonster]

26 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

You cannot divide pure awareness into anything smaller because awareness is proveably binary: On or Off. 

 

It goes beyond that. There is no Off.

[Surfingthewave]

I think you need to have better safeguards in place for vulnerable people, whether you like it or not. 

I think your site needs to have different levels for beginners, intermediate and advanced. 

I think you need to step back from the forum, stop getting involved in the squabbling and let the mods do their jobs. 

I think you need to set up something in person, no more online, change direction. 

I think you need to continue to work on your own biases and assumptions as a teacher, you could be more humble and non judgemental. Forget marketing tactics just be more authentic. Like what you're doing here. 

People need to remember you're not an expert you've just had a few more experiences, that's all. 

You also need to think about how you communicate, newbies don't understand about imagining reality and becoming god. Understand some people are just happy with a bit of self help advice and meditation tips. Be clearer, more authentic but less aggressive. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Surfingthewave

[Proserpina]

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

One thing I would caution strongly against is this subtle demonization of the mentally ill. I ran a poll a week or so ago to see if mental illness was as prevalent here as I intuited. The results came back that over 50% of people who responded had a connection to mental illness themselves in either having it in the past before consciousness work, a clinical diagnosis, or a conviction that they have mental illness although not clinically diagnosed. Results may be skewed some as mentally ill people could be more likely to respond to such a poll of course, but cut the result in half if you want. That’s still 1/4 of the community. If you really want to turn away the mentally ill or talk in ways that steer them away from the work, you are probably going to create more suffering and death than if you had simply accepted them and promoted greater understanding of mental illness in the community. 
 

Members seem to be already influenced by the air of demonization. Ever since confessing my condition I've been accused of 'crying', creating drama and being suicidal while discussing impersonal opinions. 

[RMQualtrough]

16 minutes ago, cookiemonster said:

It goes beyond that. There is no Off.

That is our conclusion, but it is true to literally anyone even Materialists etc. that it must be a binary.

Edited May 21, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[okulele]

Hi Leo,

thanks for opening the thread. I thought I'd also share how I see it.

Love what you do, even though I have been following the content less lately. I do understand that your expertise is in the domain of realization and enlightenment, but I often think that it is quite ungrounded. It often seems to me that it is this very high realization that is in a certain way forgetting the human. And I know, you do talk about politics, you do mention that basic personal development must be done etc. you are not denying the world, but still. The teaching works very much with the mind, with consciousness, and similar ideas, but what I always think is - where is the body?

I view it as that important as I myself have been pursuing only the highest Truth for years, and I ended up with insights, fabulous experiences and a ruined health (and with it, a more and more dysfunctional human experience). I had to notice the body. And I don't just mean cleaning up my diet, doing excercise, fasting and getting phyical therapy. I mean bringing Consciousness into the body! Coming into the body as Love! Sadly, I never heard you speak about this very specific and wonderful part of what it means to be human and awake. 

I can't be sure, but as it is, it seems to me that the more we awaken, the more there is a need for consciousness to come fucking deep into the body. And that is very much not about being above it all and seeing it all as a dream. It's coming in.

Yeah, I might be wrong here and judging you unjustly. Of course, I don't know how much of that actually takes place in your own life, but as I said - never heard you speak about it. And I think this mirrors itself into this community, which becomes somewhat one side - everything is a dream, while dismissing that there is a real need for Consciousness to enter matter. Who's gonna do it if not the awakened ones?

Edited May 21, 2021 by okulele

[vladorion]

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

@Regan Consciousness has to be infinite. The terms are annoying because there are not enough. There ought to be a distinct term for consciousness stripped of the layers on top, and normal experience of what we usually refer to it as.

Anyway. The thing itself has to be infinite if it is not inside space. If it is not in space then literally it is sizeless hence it is not bound at all by space so it can be a point or an infinite.

There is no deeper awakening for the simple reason that it is completely irreducible.

When you are going towards these states, elements of you and your brain start to shut down. More and more shut down until you reach, you would hope, the most pure version of it that you can experience. Or close enough to logically be able to bridge the gap and feel what it is etc.

You cannot divide pure awareness into anything smaller because awareness is proveably binary: On or Off. There is no in between. When we use terms like semi conscious that is referring to the way a human being experiences humanness, e.g. thoughts and feelings, which meditation often tries to get you to detach from.

Something that is infinite cannot be the ultimate.

Infinity still implies some sort of space. Without space, the concept of infinity collapses.

The ultimate realization is not infinity.

It is the essence of both infinity, finity and absolutely everything that can be experienced.

[Thetruthseeker]

Just a side note - as we’re talking about the future of this forum potentially. 
why did the forum start? 

I honestly it was a smart move to get organic SEO to your site, whilst keeping on the ball with feedback and ideas for future videos. 

I was thinking of doing a public forum for my site but after watching the hours of hassle, criticism and time it takes up for @Leo Gura (no offence everyone) I’m not sure I will bother 

[Consilience]

4 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

41:00-43:00 I already know that’s Brendan & Peter lol

 

 

Yep I was thinking it was Brendan and Peter as well. When I was doing their workshops, one of the participants literally went crazy. They had a mental breakdown, become totally unhinged from consensus reality and had to end up leaving the workshop prematurely. Ralston ended up telling the group that this wasn't the first time something like this has happened, but that in every case he's witnessed the person always had some sort of predisposition to mental health issues. And to Brendan's credit, he handled the situation very well and managed to get the workshop back on track, and get the group refocused. 

[kieranperez]

One of the most succinct and powerful teachings I’ve ever gotten that’s paid dividends in following came from a Zen master I work with that touches on precisely this issue:

You have to develop a healthy self before you let go and forget the self. 
 

And quite frankly, the degree to which you can transcend is the degree to which much of our character has been not only sufficiently integrated but also developed and healed. 

I’ve heard stories from this particular Zen master how he was on a retreat and how a participant actually broke into his sleeping quarters in the night, woke him up, and told him how he was growing a pussy and how happy he was because he could finally fuck himself. This guy eventually went into a full blown psychosis to the point where they were gonna call the police. They only reason they didn’t is because this guy was so unhinged they knew it would be a blood bath if they came. So they brought back through this rebirthing process. This shit is no joke and does happen. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by kieranperez

[Consept]

18 minutes ago, okulele said:

I view it as that important as I myself have been pursuing only the highest Truth for years, and I ended up with insights, fabulous experiences and a ruined health (and with it, a more and more dysfunctional human experience). I had to notice the body. And I don't just mean cleaning up my diet, doing excercise, fasting and getting phyical therapy. I mean bringing Consciousness into the body! Coming into the body as Love! Sadly, I never heard you speak about this very specific and wonderful part of what it means to be human and awake. 

I think this is a really good point, becoming a good human is so important and this can sometimes be forgotten because of this quest for enlightenment. My own experience was a belief that i could transcend all the human stuff because i had a couple glimpses, but i didnt realise how important just being a 'healthy' person is, at the very least it should be the foundation of anything else