Leo Gura

Major Discussion Of Actualized.org Teachings & The Future

289 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, snowyowl said:

Hi all,

It's taken me all this time to catch up with all the latest news in the forum, including the tragic news about Sunny.My condolences to his family and friends.

I keep coming back to how this group of us associated with actualized.org see ourselves, there's a range of thinking on this point. Some want a simple internet forum of essentially anonymous individuals, discussing spirituality with full disclaimers that we aren't responsible for what we say. On the other end of the spectrum others call this gathering a community, which to me carries suggestions of closer connections, caring about each other, taking more responsibility for eachother, seeing ourselves as a connected community. There's shades inbetween too of course.

Actualized.org itself is a limited company run by Leo as his right livelihood, to offer his teachings to the world. It's a good business model, Leo earns a living and anyone can access advanced teachings free. Leo is in charge, and like any other small business it isn't democratic. The forum has a simple hierarchy with Leo on top and mods inbetween.

Comparing this forum with others I belong to, most of them are run autocratically by whoever originally set them up, at least that saves a whole lot of bureaucracy and politics. While that's fine for a basic forum, if we're intending to become a true spiritual community, do we want to keep going long-term as a kind of monarchy? That would feed into the accusations of being a cult.  On the other hand, do we have the stomach and commitment to evolve into a democratic spiritual organisation? 

 

I think it would make sense to create more of a unified approach myself. There are so many who would enjoy furthering the cause and have life purposes aligned with such work. Instead of having one mysterious talking head guy as all content, our mysterious talking head guy could oversee other talented spiritual people making content to expand the high quality library. Idk there is some sense in having things more collective and group-oriented, but there are a lot of limits no matter what. 


LSD - A God Consciousness Experience (begins at 1:32) 
https://youtu.be/IOLw7_lbJtw

Experiences aren’t enlightenment. Enlightenment is what can span any experience or lack thereof. There is no such thing as a living enlightened person, but there can be the appearance of someone being alive who is in truth death itself. 

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To my mind, there is a degree to which it would be prudent for you, Leo, to focus awareness on the systemic nature of Actualized.org.

One can hold the position that the actions of the consumer, of content such as Actualized.org, are the consumer's responsibility (although, this could be deconstructed).

However, let us say for that moment that the responsibility lies with the consumer. If this is so, it does not negate the cause-effect relationship that your content has on the actions of the consumer's of your content.

If the responsibility is on the consumer, it may not be the responsibility of yourself (Leo), or the moderators of this forum, to have mental health training, but if said training is provided then, to my mind, it is reasonable to assume that the likelihood of suicides, or similar incidents occurring would be lowered.

Perhaps, Leo, the cause-effect relationship is deemed suitable as it is. Perhaps, awareness on the systemic nature of Actualized.org is deemed to be appropriate.

However, perhaps not.

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On 5/26/2021 at 2:18 PM, Emerald said:

The biggest issue I see with this forum as an environment (in relation to your role in it specifically), is the short punchy way that you share things.

It gives a harsh vibe of absolute certainty, and then others (usually young impressionable men) who look up to you as a leader immediately and uncritically absorb what you say without really thinking.

Every time that you make a claim with this air of certainty, I can go right down on the thread and find multiple guys parroting what you say... simply because of the way you say it.

And this turns the forum into an echo chamber.

And I see sometimes that you expect for people to understand when you’re being funny or satirical or simply playing devil’s advocate or taking a spiritual truth to its most extreme ends. But many (if not most) do not understand. 

Basically, you would be wise to understand the position of power you’re in relative to your viewership. And with the understanding of that power, being able/willing to pick and choose carefully what you decide to share and what you choose not to.

Every Hierophant is wise to consider what is unintended for the uninitiated and those not predisposed to the work.

Highly agree with this take, the flippancy of some comments is inherently dangerous and breeds a kind of know it all attitude that ain't healthy. I would also add that honouring the relative is severely lacking in the spiritual side of this community, almost to the point of using the absolute POV as a copout, which is also dangerous and breeds Zen devils.

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Posted (edited)

I have a critique of a conviction you hold that subtly affects all of your outlooks on life, your notions on the world, and which, I believe, causes you much cognitive dissonance.

 

The conviction I’m talking about is your idealist notion of reality. Aka, your belief that reality is all mind created. That there are no others. That there is no common Prakriti to multiple Purushas. My issue with you on this matter is that you are too confident of this, I believe unjustifiedly, and it has many subtle implications on how you interact with the world and reality, and it causes evident cognitive disonance. If reality is only ever mind created, then there is no objectivity. Nada.

 

I’ve also put in many hours on the cushion. I’ve also done heavy psychedelics and had the same notion occur to me ‘I am God. I created everything. All of it.’ And I still consider it to be a good possibility. I still consider the idealist, rather than realist position on reality, to have a good chance of being true. The difference between us though, I suppose, is that I don’t hold onto this notion with certainty. There are other possible ways to explain my experiences. Especially after study of other Vedantic and Sankyan explanations on the nature of reality, and what happens metaphysically when ignorance is eradicated, rather than holding on so tightly to the Advaita Vedantic and Kashmir Shaivist perspectives (which I still adore and consider to be very possible).

 

Edit: One thing though, I want to say is that I respect and commend you for your ability to be self critical and to question yourself. You have disavowed positions you’ve held in the past. This is a good thing, in my opinion. A good sign. It’s extremely important. You lose this ability though, and things are going to get messy - for you yourself, and for your students.

 

Edited by uriel

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Posted (edited)

I recommend a progression over time strategy for your work. The psyche cannot handle too much revelation at once, so you should encourage people to take things slowly and give them time to digest it. You've said something similar already by telling people to progress through the spiral dynamic stages..(get grounded in stage blue etc) but people should take long breaks to come to grips with difficult concepts/experiences like ego death. Also, you should recommend starting out with weaker psychedelics first (and to do thorough research/appropriate precautions) as people work their way up.

Psychedelics can make people go crazy. They have the potential to trigger latent mental illness and sudden undesirable changes in perspective... look into psyche ward residents and you'll find a huge amount of people there who have misused psychedelics.. Some literally start hallucinating insects crawling all over their bodies. Pest control get bothered with calls from these people all the time. It is an internet meme thanks to people like Joe Rogan that psychedelics are completely safe. People should respect them.

You also come across as someone who enjoys psyching people out (the smiley faces like ;) in... the YouTube comments lol). You've got kind of a mentalist vibe going on with the shaven head and everything (that's cool and part of the image/brand). You should be careful though, I'm not sure if the way you communicate was picked up from self help books or through coaching/speaking techniques, but it comes off as brash. It's almost like your channel is trying to target arrogant rationalists/skeptics and teach them a lesson..and then open minded or more casual watchers get caught in the crossfire. I understand that this method might be a requirement though to make people "get it".

You should also give Christianity a closer look Leo. Almost everything you teach is the complete opposite of it at every single point. If there is any foundation out there for dualism, you'd find it in Christianity. Mental illness from the Christian worldview can be prescribed to demons/fallen angels amalgamizing with your consciousness. Demons provide an explanation for things like tourettes, hearing voices, schizophrenia, people that need straight jackets, self harm, seizures etc...It might even be an alternative explanation for kriyas or kundalini experiences. Definitely look into it...but you do you man.

P.S, I am amazed at how one man can be so based. You've basically discovered what the Freemasons and Jews believe as their deepest held secret, and release articulate well thought out explanations of it every week. You've probably gone even deeper than they have.

Edited by pepeking

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People who want to kill themselves take your teachings to their logical conclusion.

This whole thing is meaningless. According to your videos, I will live this and other existences an infinite amount of time. In fact I have probably killed myself an infinite amount of times.  It does not matter if I kill myself or make a million dollars.  Eventually I will go back to being alone as God then get bored and start the whole thing again. It's all a dream.

Again if it's a dream why not kill myself? why not shoot my kids in the head (you've mentioned the latter as one potential albeit radical step)?  They're not real after all and neither am I.

So why can't I kill myself and say you told me to? who cares since this whole thing is an illusion?

You seem to act exactly as if it's not an illusion. As if you are actually talking to other people who exist. As if your business exists and you are worried about your reputation. 

I think you need to explain this contradiction.

 


''I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on everything they can get'' (NapoleonBonaparte).

"We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull. You will learn by degrees, Winston. There is nothing that we could not do. Invisibility, levitation—anything. I could float off this floor like a soap bubble if I wish to. I do not wish to, because the Party does not wish it. You must get rid of those nineteenth-century ideas about the laws of Nature. We make the laws of Nature." (1984)

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10 minutes ago, mp22 said:

People who want to kill themselves take your teachings to their logical conclusion.

This whole thing is meaningless. According to your videos, I will live this and other existences an infinite amount of time. In fact I have probably killed myself an infinite amount of times.  It does not matter if I kill myself or make a million dollars.  Eventually I will go back to being alone as God then get bored and start the whole thing again. It's all a dream.

Again if it's a dream why not kill myself? why not shoot my kids in the head (you've mentioned the latter as one potential albeit radical step)?  They're not real after all and neither am I.

So why can't I kill myself and say you told me to? who cares since this whole thing is an illusion?

You seem to act exactly as if it's not an illusion. As if you are actually talking to other people who exist. As if your business exists and you are worried about your reputation. 

I think you need to explain this contradiction.

 

The reason you don't do that is :

a. because it doesn't feel good

b. because you enjoy life and want to continue to enjoy it


Spirituality is not the renunciation of life

It is the art of living fully

 

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2 minutes ago, Shin said:

The reason you don't do that is :

a. because it doesn't feel good

b. because you enjoy life and want to continue to enjoy it

People are really taking these teachings beyond where they’re meant to be taken off of probably a rather partial awakening process. 

They’re missing the Love, becoming enraptured in beauty. They’re missing sitting at a family gathering in a high consciousness state and thinking of all the amazing relative gifts you’ve been given. 
 

@mp22

YOUR LIFE STORY IS THE STORY OF GOD’S LIFE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE. TREAT ABSOLUTE PERFECTION WITH ITS DUE APPRECIATION ? That’s my message to people worried about no meaning and everything. If you saw the scope, you’d see the meaning. Would it be some immutable Absolute meaning? No, but it sure is amazing. 

 

Sorry for the caps, but seriously guys. If you haven’t had the deep love/beauty/pure consciousness awakenings enough to transform nihilism of any sort, focus on trying to create that next. It is the foundation for a safe and accurate understanding and use of the teachings. Part of the teachings is an inherent dedication and love toward life. That’s really one of the requirements to try to attain as early as possible imo. 


LSD - A God Consciousness Experience (begins at 1:32) 
https://youtu.be/IOLw7_lbJtw

Experiences aren’t enlightenment. Enlightenment is what can span any experience or lack thereof. There is no such thing as a living enlightened person, but there can be the appearance of someone being alive who is in truth death itself. 

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45 minutes ago, mp22 said:

People who want to kill themselves take your teachings to their logical conclusion.

This whole thing is meaningless. According to your videos, I will live this and other existences an infinite amount of time. In fact I have probably killed myself an infinite amount of times.  It does not matter if I kill myself or make a million dollars.  Eventually I will go back to being alone as God then get bored and start the whole thing again. It's all a dream.

Again if it's a dream why not kill myself? why not shoot my kids in the head (you've mentioned the latter as one potential albeit radical step)?  They're not real after all and neither am I.

So why can't I kill myself and say you told me to? who cares since this whole thing is an illusion?

You seem to act exactly as if it's not an illusion. As if you are actually talking to other people who exist. As if your business exists and you are worried about your reputation. 

I think you need to explain this contradiction.

@mp22 There is no contradiction at all. You simply haven't yet understood what "meaninglessness" actually is and how deep it really goes.

If you think that meaninglessness is a problem and that therefore now you should end your life, you haven't understood. 

What happens, when truly everything becomes meaningless? Well, obviously the fact that everything is meaningless becomes meaningless too. And in that way, meaninglessness flips inside out - the moment you realize what 100% meaninglessness is, man.. That's liberation. That's a true gift. And you say "thank god this is just an illusion!" But you see, the illusion is real. If you think that "illusion" is a bad word, you also don't understand what is meant by saying "the universe is an illusion".

Please be careful. Because it seems to me that you have adopted some of the things Leo or someone else said as a philosophy and then turned it into a prescription for what to do. But that's not how it works.

Be very, very careful with rationalizing ideas like meaninglessness or suicide. It can develop into some seriously nasty problems. 


"Love is all that I can give to you ❤ Love is more than just a game for two!"

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErVP6xLZwg 

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47 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

People are really taking these teachings beyond where they’re meant to be taken off of probably a rather partial awakening process. 

They’re missing the Love, becoming enraptured in beauty. They’re missing sitting at a family gathering in a high consciousness state and thinking of all the amazing relative gifts you’ve been given. 
 

@mp22

YOUR LIFE STORY IS THE STORY OF GOD’S LIFE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE. TREAT ABSOLUTE PERFECTION WITH ITS DUE APPRECIATION ? That’s my message to people worried about no meaning and everything. If you saw the scope, you’d see the meaning. Would it be some immutable Absolute meaning? No, but it sure is amazing. 

 

Sorry for the caps, but seriously guys. If you haven’t had the deep love/beauty/pure consciousness awakenings enough to transform nihilism of any sort, focus on trying to create that next. It is the foundation for a safe and accurate understanding and use of the teachings. Part of the teachings is an inherent dedication and love toward life. That’s really one of the requirements to try to attain as early as possible imo. 

Remember the first time you had those realizations and you came back to full ego mod.

You probably were reacting like crazy to it and find all the excuses in the world to not pursue, I know I did, and wouldn't be surprised if the next time I become conscious of it again and come back to full Shin ego.

It's hard to accept, and looks like nothing when you did I'm sure, but until then, not so easy :)


Spirituality is not the renunciation of life

It is the art of living fully

 

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3 minutes ago, Shin said:

Remember the first time you had those realizations and you came back to full ego mod.

You probably were reacting like crazy to it and find all the excuses in the world to not pursue, I know I did, and wouldn't be surprised if the next time I become conscious of it again and come back to full Shin ego.

It's hard to accept, and looks like nothing when you did I'm sure, but until then, not so easy :)

This is a good point though. I had already suffered enough to be fully comfortable with total annihilation. But still these insights, when framed properly, are good safety rails. 
 

I think an important thing is to stop talking about physical death as if it’s the same as psychedelic death. This is a big epistemic error imo which had the dangerous outcome we saw. We don’t know beyond all doubt what an afterlife will contain. The difference is in the psychedelic case you have a functioning body left behind in this specific dream once you come down from the trip. 
 

Physical death... ain’t nobody coming back. 


LSD - A God Consciousness Experience (begins at 1:32) 
https://youtu.be/IOLw7_lbJtw

Experiences aren’t enlightenment. Enlightenment is what can span any experience or lack thereof. There is no such thing as a living enlightened person, but there can be the appearance of someone being alive who is in truth death itself. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm a huge fan of your work, and I can't thank you enough for all the value you've given me over the years. The book list and Spiral Dynamic series in particular have been invaluable. However, I must be honest and true to the thread about what I feel like is your biggest flaw: patronizing your students. 

Oftentimes while watching your videos it feels like you assume the person watching the video does nothing but play video games, watch porn and jack off all day (you insinuate your audience relishes in these activities nearly every video), and also assume they've never achieved anything close to your state of self actualization or enlightenment. This might be good for the new viewer to kind of "jolt them awake" so to speak but it causes a sort of dulling effect among your frequent students where they start to subconsciously feel like they'll never surpass or outgrow you. You've even teased about this a few times in recent videos, how "One day you might outgrow me" but it's always done with a little wink and an unspoken "but you have so much more to learn and I'm growing pretty fast, so you better keep watching". I just don't see any situation where someone watching your content for an extended period of time will ever advance beyond Actualized.org, and that's an issue because even though someone who watches all your videos is destined to be extremely developed and conscious, they'll never become as conscious as you. The best teachers create the best teachers, yet I don't see a strong enough push from Actualized.org to create leaders, especially spiritual teachers.

This issue is present in the videos but especially in the forum.

I value and appreciate the many insightful dialogues you and I have had, but again, I gotta be honest Leo...scrolling through your comment history, you come off as a total jerk sometimes. You don't sound at all like the wise man in your videos. I could bring up examples, but it's not any one example as much as it is your overall tone. A good chunk of the comments are helpful, but most of them are some variation on:

"Wooosh you missed the point"

"LOL this is total bullshit. Total pipe dream."

"Hahaha just go out and talk to girls"

"Bro, get off the computer and get back to work"

"Dude, quit bitching."

If I had never watched your Youtube videos and just read your comments, I'd think they were made by some punk kid trolling on his phone while waiting for the school bus.

Bottom line: please treat your students with more respect.

Edited by EternalForest
The best teachers create the best teachers, not the best students.

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Let me just say, as an infrequent contributor here, that I like the openness of this community and how critical voices are allowed, even highly offensive threads are usually just locked, rather than outright deleted, so people can make up their own minds on the issues.

Personally, I am not into pyschedelics, but perhaps they can act as useful accelerators in the awakening process. Since they're highly illegal where I live, it's unlikely I'll ever find out, unless I take a Shamanic trip to Peru or some other place where such experiences are legally available.

What I really disagree with is the Pick-Up artistry side of things, I'm sorry, but if your main concern is picking up chicks for casual sex, your priorities are completely off, this is so far away from any traditional view of what is required for spiritual development, that it isn't even in the same ballpark. I have a similar critique of the obsession regarding material wealth, this is again higly incompatible with traditional views on what consitutes an enlightened person. 

If that is the path you wish to walk, it is your choice, but don't think this is in any way compatible with becoming enlightened.

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Soonhei's suicide has led me to do some serious thinking about my relationship with Leo's teachings and this forum. @Leo Gura is correct that when someone dies in the backcountry, or an airplane goes down, we don't cancel camping or ban flying. When this happens search & rescue and the airline industry conduct a rigorous post-mortem in order to make changes that reduce risk. Because of this approach, commercial flight has today become safer than driving. Following is my own post-mortem analysis, do with it what you will, apologies for the length. I've divided it up into 3 spheres:

1. Leo's Teaching

Leo's teachings have helped stupendously more people than they have harmed. Just looking at suicide, it seems clear that he has literally saved many people's lives. This is a great achievement alone, let alone all of the people who he has helped along the way in less dire situations. However, I would be dishonest if I didn't voice concern over some of his language. I believe some of it can easily be misunderstood and lead a person like Soonhei down the wrong path. This is not meant as an attack, I truly intend this as sharing a perspective, hopefully in the most (tough-) loving way possible. I hope this can help fortify Leo's teachings, and this community's response to them.

Disclaimers and warnings are a great idea, and will help. However the issue will remain that people will ignore them, think they don't apply to them, or skip them altogether. There can be the assumption that warnings are a fake covering-your-ass thing, put in place to meet legal requirements, or youtube guidelines etc. I think many of us are conditioned to ignore warnings to some degree. In my opinion, the true caution has to go right down to the core of the language in the teaching. 

To give a concrete example, Leo has said on more than one occasion that he has "literally died". Now, this is clearly not true in the normal medical sense of what people mean when they literally die. I would hope that even a confused person would see this, but it sets a tone. In my opinion, this is too dangerous a phrase. There needs to be a very, very strong line in the sand between ego-death/transcendence and literal medical death.

Again, I want to stay positive here, Leo is an extremely talented speaker, and it's impossible to deliver 100s of hours of lectures without an occasional error. I wouldn't last 1hr tbh. This is intended to hopefully shine some light.

2. This Forum

I value the diversity of respectful viewpoints and discussion on this forum. I also support mild censorship to ban and closing of terrible and unproductive threads, and aggressive or useless discussion to keep this forum from becoming a generic free-for-all. There are more than enough platforms for talking shit.

As a mod, I wish we could have noticed Soonhei's warning signs and intervened. What if. Fuck.

I would probably support disabling PMs on this forum. I'm not completely sure about this, but I think it warrants discussion. Perhaps we should have all discussion above board here.

I'm concerned that this community is displaying signs of cult-like behaviour. I think we could all do with checking in on the level of pedestalization of Leo and his teachings. Question respectfully, without attack. Check in if what you heard in his video is authentic for you. Check your biases, try not to worship. If someone has a thoughtful criticism of something you have gained from Leo's teaching (or any teaching), observe if this triggers you. I believe that a slight leaning towards an unquestioning and cult-like behaviour in this community contributed to Soonhei's fanatical final act.

3. Personal

I've been overly cavalier in not providing cautions on this forum, especially WRT psychedelics. I also regret not voicing and trying to discuss my concerns earlier. I'll be more forthcoming and hopefully loving in my responses and perspectives. I think we all need to adopt the voice of no-self-harm (and no other-harm!) in all of our interactions on here.


How to get to infinity? Divide by zero.

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, outlandish said:

As a mod, I wish we could have noticed Soonhei's warning signs and intervened. What if. Fuck.

I would probably support disabling PMs on this forum. I'm not completely sure about this, but I think it warrants discussion. Perhaps we should have all discussion above board here.

While I want to first say that I appreciate your well thought out post, I have to express how strongly opposed to this "take away" from this incident I feel. Disallowing people to connect on a deeper, more honest and private manner like through PM yet at the same time encouraging them to let go of everything they know, is going in the exact opposite direction in preventing incidents like this. 

Nahm was such an incredible resource and an asset to this forum. He provided me and countless others with insight and guidance when we needed it most. He did the same for Soonhei, and for whatever reason everyone was so concerned about what happened and who would get blamed for it that he got thrown under the bus. Of COURSE he was the last person he messaged, he was the only one HERE who he knew that would really listen. Yet it's painted in the exact opposite light, and we've lost one of the most insightful dedicated members here. Now it's like everyone doesn't care and is wanting to write "Don't Eat ;)" on the tide pods/psychedelic/nondual pointers and wash their hands of any responsibility. 

Is it weird that anyone can edit PMs at any time without them being marked as edited. Yep. Should that have been discussed? Yep. 

 

Edited by mandyjw

My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Nahm was such an incredible resource and an asset to this forum. and we've lost one of the most insightful dedicated members here.

What ?


Spirituality is not the renunciation of life

It is the art of living fully

 

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18 minutes ago, Shin said:

What ?

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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Posted (edited)

@Nahm Will you continue to help people by providing them guidance and insight or you will not do that anymore due to Soonhei tragic event etc?

Edited by sda
To make my question clear

" You will face many defeats in life, but never let yourself be defeated." Maya Angelou

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18 hours ago, mandyjw said:

I have to express how strongly opposed to this "take away" from this incident I feel. Disallowing people to connect on a deeper, more honest and private manner like through PM yet at the same time encouraging them to let go of everything they know, is going in the exact opposite direction in preventing incidents like this. 

Yes, it's definitely not clear in my mind if the PM system is a net benefit or problem, and I very well could easily be in the minority for even questioning it. I wanted to bring it up because I think it warrants discussion, so thanks for engaging in it. On the one hand it can allow people to connect like you said, on the other hand it could be fertile ground for nonsense and confusion out of sight of the rest of the community. 

Also, to be clear, I didn't bring this up as an underhanded criticism of the screen-shotted interaction between Nahm and Soonhei. To me, all that illustrated was the potential for general missed opportunities via the PM system. This is not a reaction to their specific dialogue, we truly don't know the details of what happened there.


How to get to infinity? Divide by zero.

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