winterknight

I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

4,454 posts in this topic

28 minutes ago, winterknight said:

If you talk to the top psychedelics researchers in the world, very few if any of them would put forth the absurd position that psychedelics are a total replacement for therapy. It’s truly a dumb suggestion.

Of course not. For some people, therapists can be useful in helping to integrate psychedelic realizations. As psychedelic therapy becomes mainstream, more psychologists will be trained and specialized for psychedelic therapy and increase their usefulness.   

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3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Of course not. Therapists have been shown to be useful in helping patients integrate psychedelic realizations. 

Yes. So when there are suggestions that psychedelics are 1000x more effective than therapy, etc., it shows a misunderstanding of the what these two activities are to each other.


Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

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50 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Yes. So when there are suggestions that psychedelics are 1000x more effective than therapy, etc., it shows a misunderstanding of the what these two activities are to each other.

I don’t think psychedelic therapy will be psychedelics + traditional therapy/analysis. I think psychologists will need a lot of new training to adapt. 

At a population level, it’s not as simple as take a psychedelic and fix yourself. There is more to it and I think support and guidance through inter-personal relations can play an important role.

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Just saying but I've been to 12 therapists in my life and I've gotten as much gains from microdosing 1 month as I did from 2 years of therapy 

I have some social anxiety so it i think it stunted by progress with therapy half the time. I also dont think I got psychoanalytic therapy so. But some of them were quite experienced 

They were both useful for me, and I'm continuing both. 

 

Edited by d0ornokey

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1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jordan94 Consider directness and efficiency.

Imagine going to a therapy session with a therapist who speaks French. You speak about your experience in English and someone translates to Chinese, the Chinese person translates to Russian, the Russian person translates to the French psychologist. The French psychologist analyzes this information and has a suggestion. Her suggestion is translated through Russian, Chinese and then English to you. You don’t quite understand this suggestion and would like more clarity. So you ask for clarity via the Chinese and Russian translators. . .

Obviously, this therapy would be highly inefficient. It would take forever to make progress. It would be much more efficient to work directly with an English speaking therapist. What took years to accomplish with the translators could be accomplished in one or two sessions with the English psychologist. . . We can get even more direct. You directly. Speaking with an English therapist actually involves translations and filters. When used properly, psychedelics are more direct. It is You directly. That is why years of therapy progress can be made in hours or days with psychedelic therapy. Even clinical trials are showing this.  

I’m not saying interacting with others has no value. It does have value. Yet there is a more direct method that is more efficient and faster for many issues.

Funny fact i'm French actually so I could just speak french with the therapist xD

 

But I mean I see your explanation on why it's working well (more direct path), but that's not even my question, my question basically is, why it can't teach you to play violin then ?

Or I guess why the teaching could not transfere to the 'outside the trips reality'

And then if it can not, then that would be the same for spiritual teachings no ?

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@Jordan94 I think my input here is contributing to derailing the thread. So I am going to stop commenting on this topic here.

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9 hours ago, winterknight said:

If objective reality is but a chemical state, then why is it that the amazing ultimate psychedelic teacher by which you know the entire universe and the workings of God can’t do the simplest little thing like teach you to play the violin? You can’t have it both ways, calling objective reality a nothing and also claiming that psychedelics are the best way to liberate the mind emotionally (a claim about the objective), “but don’t hold me to any standards of proof or demonstration because there is no objective world.” 

And if objective reality is a dream, then there are no possible truths about it, then certainly all the talk about knowing how God works is nothing more than incoherent dream words... that certainly must follow, since language is part of the dream.

Good point. I'm always skeptical with this. I believe "truth-telling" is just one way that "enlightened" people use to survive. It's getting more convincing every day.

I'm not saying you're right though. You made some epistemic mistakes, such as using logic to make absolute conclusions.

@Serotoninluv I don't know why you and Leo are concerned so much with advertising psychedelics. It sounds like you make your living from selling drugs. LOL.

7 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jordan94 I think my input here is contributing to derailing the thread. So I am going to stop commenting on this topic here.

Classic.

 

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12 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I believe "truth-telling" is just one way that "enlightened" people use to survive. It's getting more convincing every day.

Duality 

The reason is because devilry must be rooted out , including the devilry in yourself. 

I am not enlightened. But even I am conscious that my being is being used a vehicle to say that you are a devil. 

Here is how 

A...

B ...

C...

and that’s it unfortunately. You did me wrong, by saying all enlightened people who tell truth are wrong. So I will tell you, you are wrong. 

Edited by Aakash

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13 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

At least I'm being clear and honest.

When something is unclear to you, it doesn’t necessarily mean the other person is being dishonest. There can be another reason it is unclear to you. Be mindful of assuming intentionality.

Let’s not derail winterknight’s thread with this side topic. If you would like to discuss this topic more, please PM me.

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You might ask yourself why all devils must die ? 

Its because of absolute impermanence. All duality is devilry and therefore imperminant. What will take its place ? The difference between truths. 

The answer is: more consciousness, more devilry at higher complexity. Until you become enlightened and break that cycle. By giving up devilry yourself. Which is why non-fully enlightened beings are prone to devilry. They are a higher complexity of devils 

however have started shedding into absolute truth. And this is why zen devilry occurs 

Edited by Aakash

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This thread has been derailed too far onto a side topic. Let’s stop the side conversation.

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@Serotoninluv Ugh.

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

When something is unclear to you, it doesn’t necessarily mean the other person is being dishonest.

I didn't say it has to, but it certainly can.

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There can be another reason it is unclear to you. Be mindful of assuming intentionality.

Good point. Try applying it for psychoanalysis.

@Aakash

Maybe I should have been clearer. I didn't mean all of them. Maybe some of them are just doing it out of love.

Then again, maybe you're not aware of how you're using spirituality as means for survival, including psychological survival.

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PRECISELY BECAUSE there is no enlightened beings. 

Going full circle to absolute truth. And the ending of duality and non-duality. 

im Not sure how I am. All I’m doing is hunting truth. What is survival about that ? 

Edited by Aakash

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11 hours ago, winterknight said:

If objective reality is but a chemical state, then why is it that the amazing ultimate psychedelic teacher by which you know the entire universe and the workings of God can’t do the simplest little thing like teach you to play the violin?

Your logic here is so warped I don't even know where to begin.

Why is it that self-inquiry or meditation cannot do the simplest thing like teach you to play the violin?

Do you see how absurd your logic is?

1) Existential realizations have nothing to do with technical skill at manipulating the dream world. You are smart enough to know this.

2) No therapist will teach you how to play a violin. This example is just absurd. It does a disservice to serious therapists to promise such results from therapy.

Quote

You can’t have it both ways, calling objective reality a nothing and also claiming that psychedelics are the best way to liberate the mind emotionally (a claim about the objective), “but don’t hold me to any standards of proof or demonstration because there is no objective world.”

Objective reality is all your imagination. Whatever God imagines is reality. If God imagines a chemical system, that chemical system will behave precisely how God imagines it behaves.

The standard of proof is very simple: take a breakthrough dose of psychedelic and you see all objective reality melt away.

Quote

And if objective reality is a dream, then there are no possible truths about it,

There are relative truths within every dream.

And the dream itself is Absolute Truth.

Quote

then certainly all the talk about knowing how God works is nothing more than incoherent dream words...

God is an Absolute. All possible dreams at once.

- - - - - - -

It would be wise of you to actually watch my videos and to be on this forum to learn and not just teach, because your awakening and understanding of what reality is, is still surface level.

You are not conscious yet of God or Love, and many other important facets of the Absolute. Nor have you had a psychedelic breakthrough, given the arguments you make.

You are hallucinating this entire conversation. You are hallucinating your therapist. You are hallucinating chemistry. And you are even hallucinating psychedelics.

But you are NOT hallucinating God. You ARE God. The one who is hallucinating.

All of your memories of having ever done psychotherapy are a hallucination. You're imagining it RIGHT NOW! Which is why it feels true. It's true because you (GOD) say it is.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your logic here is so warped I don't even know where to begin.

Why is it that self-inquiry or meditation cannot do the simplest thing like teach you to play the violin?

Do you see how absurd your logic is?

You’re not comprehending my argument. I’m saying that what therapy does is relevantly similar to building a skill like playing a violin. The repertoire of social-psychological patterns cannot be magicked into existence by anything other than sustained social interaction in a crucible of mutual reflection.

56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It would be wise of you to actually watch my videos and to be on this forum to learn and not just teach, because your awakening and understanding of what reality is, is still surface level.

You are not conscious yet of God or Love, and many other important facets of the Absolute. Nor have you had a psychedelic breakthrough, given the arguments you make.

You are demonstrating precisely the dangers of psychedelics, which is to take the by-definition psychotic mental agitations that result to be Truth. 

There is no such thing as existential realizations of God or Love or ‘facets of the Absolute.’ These are all gibberish dream ideas.

What’s happening is that you are laboring under delusions that your consistent and continuous use of psychedelics are reinforcing.

It’s precisely why the ancient traditions were cautious about the use of these substances.

If you don’t understand why it is that there is no God, no Love, and indeed no such thing as realization or enlightenment, you have much farther to go.

You might want to start by stopping the psychedelics and entering analysis for a year and seeing what happens.

Edited by winterknight

Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

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I think the only way to resolve this is if @Leo Gura and @winterknight agree that they will dedicate 1 year of their life to expore the others perspective. by leo doing a year of analysis, and knight doing moderate to large doses of psychedelics periodically for a year. Then after 1 year they can to a talk together for us and tell us what they think then. But that probably won't happen :( so I think this would just be a never ending back and forth. I think we should all just agree that both are helpful and that ideally both should be done, but either one on their own has its pros (psychedelics: more direct, and faster. Analysis: sober, and more integrated) and cons (psychedelics: more chaotic, less clarity. Analysis: slower, varying skills of practitioners)

 

maybe leo, you should pick 1 or 2 of your videos that you thik knight should watch, and knight can then have a better understanding of your point of view, then he can respond or post 1 or 2 of his videos as contrast (since lots can get misunderstood in a text back and forth)

Edited by passerby

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