winterknight

I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

4,454 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, winterknight said:

But psychedelics are not a substitute for analysis.

Psychedelic-therapy in clinical settings has shown off-the-chart results.  On a whole mother level from other advancements in psychological therapy or medications have shown. Psychedelics will become mainstream in psych-therapy and psycho-analysis and take it to the next level. Psychologists that have utilized psychedelics are fighting for the ability to utilize them legally and putting their reputations (and at times careers) on the line. And once laboratory research is opened up, we will learn psychedelic mechanisms and improve their effectiveness. In two generations, today’s forms of psycho-therapy and analysis will crude and rudimentary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, winterknight said:

Yes, I have. Just shows a profound ignorance of the mind to make statements like you’re making. 

I have no idea how you have done 5-MEO or if you even done it properly to have the full breakthrough - but whatever you are saying just doesn't make any sense to me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Psychedelic-therapy in clinical settings has shown off-the-chart results.  On a whole mother level from other advancements in psychological therapy or medications have shown. Psychedelics will become mainstream in psych-therapy and psycho-analysis and take it to the next level. Psychologists that have utilized psychedelics are fighting for the ability to utilize them legally and putting their reputations (and at times careers) on the line. And once laboratory research is opened up, we will learn psychedelic mechanisms and improve their effectiveness. In two generations, today’s forms of psycho-therapy and analysis will crude and rudimentary.

I’ve never said psychedelics can’t be useful. But they’re not going to be the reason why today’s therapy will seem “crude and rudimentary.” The belief that the mind is some kind of simple object that can be cracked with some innovative technique is wrong. Maybe for certain very delimited kinda of issues. But not generally. 


Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Well, for the reasons I laid out in my previous post, this makes zero sense.

You’re commenting without actually understanding how or why therapy works. When a psychedelic enables someone to play the violin without ever having picked one up before, or learn German without studying, you can make these sorts of claims. 

And I’ve had trips and have talked to people who have had many, many trips.

I really respect your opinion, it's very interesting. Just a thought: How would you be in a position to make such a statement without a) using psychedelics intensely for many years with the purpose of purification b) doing psychotherapy just as intensely, c) doing both together, d) doing only one of them without the other etc. ? 

It feels like you chose your side and just defend it. But how would you know? I'm very excited to get into psychoanalysis thanks to your help :) I'll see how it complements my psychedelic work, I'm very curious. Just to expand your horizon, I highly recommend you take a look at A.H. Almaas. There is no one I know of who combines spiritual work and psychological work as he does. He has 20 books or so, I really think this is the pinnacle of psycho-spiritual work. If you happen to read some of his work, let me know what you think! 

@Leo Gura Do you think psychoanalysis combined with psychedelic work is worthwhile? Even if you have no experience with that, I'm very curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we can say psychedelics and therapy each have their own role and neither needs to be held up as the solution for an issue that may have multiple ways of solving. I've tried psychedelics and I've tried therapy and for me I think therapy is the better choice overall along with meditation and breathe work. The bad trips from psychedelics I experienced were brutal and then coming home with a lot of the same ways of thinking and a lack of self love made it really hard to do anything with what I experienced. In some ways it maybe was some tough love and got me back in therapy which is good but it was so brutal I wonder if there was something else I could of tried which was more gentle and able to teach me in a far less traumatic and psychotic way. I think I'll have a better understanding in the long run. I will say this... psychedelics can be very dangerous and life shattering whereas therapy will be much gentler and easier to integrate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

I really respect your opinion, it's very interesting. Just a thought: How would you be in a position to make such a statement without a) using psychedelics intensely for many years with the purpose of purification b) doing psychotherapy just as intensely, c) doing both together, d) doing only one of them without the other etc. ? 

I’ve tripped, I’ve talked to people who’ve tripped, I have extensive spiritual and psychological practice, and have studied philosophy and psychology for more than 20 years. It’s enough to understand that consuming a chemical, however wondrous,  cannot substitute for interpersonal, symbolic relationship-and perspectival-restructuring that necessarily happens over time. 

Psychedelics can be useful, but they have their limits.

Edited by winterknight

Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, winterknight said:

I’ve tripped, I’ve talked to people who’ve tripped, I have extensive spiritual and psychological practice, and have studied philosophy and psychology for more than 20 years. It’s enough to understand that consuming a chemical, however wondrous,  cannot substitute for interpersonal, symbolic relationship-and perspectival-restructuring that necessarily happens over time. 

Psychedelics can be useful, but they have their limits.

It all depends on how you use the psychedelics. Unfortunately majority of people don't know how to get the maximum out of psychedelics or how to even trip properly. Have you tried doing things like self-inquiry while tripping? Have you also done any energetic work while on psychedelics? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

It all depends on how you use the psychedelics. Unfortunately majority of people don't know how to get the maximum out of psychedelics or how to even trip properly. Have you tried doing things like self-inquiry while tripping? Have you also done any energetic work while on psychedelics? 

Yes, I have. Self-inquiry has nothing to do with mystical states of the kind that psychedelics induce. That’s the misconception. 

Psychedelics can be useful, and they certainly can be very cool and cosmic, but they’re not a substitute for other kinds of therapeutic emotional work. Nor are they a substitute for the rest of the spiritual path. 


Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Psychedelics can be useful, and they certainly can be very cool and cosmic, but they’re not a substitute for other kinds of therapeutic emotional work. Nor are they a substitute for the rest of the spiritual path. 

 

17 minutes ago, winterknight said:

I’ve tripped, I’ve talked to people who’ve tripped, I have extensive spiritual and psychological practice, and have studied philosophy and psychology for more than 20 years. It’s enough to understand that consuming a chemical, however wondrous,  cannot substitute for interpersonal, symbolic relationship-and perspectival-restructuring that necessarily happens over time. 

Psychedelics can be useful, but they have their limits.

Thank you for expressing your perspective ❤️

I will think about that :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No way as way, you fu**ers ?

Whatever floats your imaginary boat?

Edited by Jack River

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, winterknight said:

The belief that the mind is some kind of simple object that can be cracked with some innovative technique is wrong. 

That’s not the true power of psychedelics. It goes waaay beyond that. That is a surface level.

Seeing psychedelics and psychedelic-induced stares as “no substitute” for other practices, creates separation and distinction between psychedelics and those practices. As such, one will not see inter-relationship and integration. This is why integration over many trips is so important. Seeing these as two worlds in which one is not a substitute for the other misses depth and gives more weight to a sober reality. As well, saying psychedelics are useful to a sober reality puts a so-called sober realty on a higher plane than a psychedelic reality. That perspective is contracted and will miss depth and holistic value. For example, such a view will miss the immense value of integrated psychedelic-therapy and view it as a technique treating the mind as a simple object to crack. This goes much much deeper and broader than that.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That’s not the true power of psychedelics. It goes waaay beyond that. That is a surface level.

Seeing psychedelics and psychedelic-induced stares as “no substitute” for other practices, creates separation and distinction between psychedelics and those practices. As such, one will not see inter-relationship and integration. This is why integration over many trips is so important. Seeing these as two worlds in which one is not a substitute for the other misses depth and gives more weight to a sober reality. As well, saying psychedelics are useful to a sober reality puts a so-called sober realty on a higher plane than a psychedelic reality. That perspective is contracted and will miss depth and holistic value. For example, such a view will miss the immense value of integrated psychedelic-therapy and view it as a technique treating the mind as a simple object to crack. This goes much much deeper and broader than that.

 

 

Even without ever doing pyschedelics that would make logical sense to me - in fact i would think it would be more powerful than a therapist because therapists can't truly understand you - only you can.  You have to discover yourself for yourself - no one is going to do it for you.  Most therapists just sit back and listen then prescribe meds.   Of course specific psycho analysts may be different - but still - they cannot access your mind.  Only you can.  And pyschedelics raise consciousness levels bringing you closer to infinite Intelligence - thereby increasing the chances of you understanding and dissolving your own baggage.   Time and experience and careful contemplation of yourself can also do this.


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really embarrassed to admit this but I think it's important. Someone on this forum acted as a nondual therapist for me in the journal section a few months ago. I started channeling my past stuff and doing shadow work, it got really messy. I could see exactly how I had as God written the story of life, and how every traumatic experience I went through was an opening of some kind. I could see how perfectly beautifully it all was designed and orchestrated. I had an awakening, third eye opening, mystical experiences, heart chakra burst open, bliss states for days on end. I had to hide the journal since because it was ridiculously personal. 

I say this because maybe the same thing can work for others. Maybe what happened was a unique situation, and it would be dangerous or useless to try to recreate it, I'm not sure. Psychotherapy and psychedelics are great but practically they are only available to very few. Psychotherapists don't lead you into nondual understanding with pointers. Psychedelics aren't a structured way to do shadow work.  Both have their own drawbacks, and there are a lot of people on this forum who can't access either. 

Is there a third option? 

 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I'm really embarrassed to admit this but I think it's important. Someone on this forum acted as a nondual therapist for me in the journal section a few months ago. I started channeling my past stuff and doing shadow work, it got really messy. I could see exactly how I had as God written the story of life, and how every traumatic experience I went through was an opening of some kind. I could see how perfectly beautifully it all was designed and orchestrated. I had an awakening, third eye opening, mystical experiences, heart chakra burst open, bliss states for days on end. I had to hide the journal since because it was ridiculously personal. 

I say this because maybe the same thing can work for others. Maybe what happened was a unique situation, and it would be dangerous or useless to try to recreate it, I'm not sure. Psychotherapy and psychedelics are great but practically they are only available to very few. Psychotherapists don't lead you into nondual understanding with pointers. Psychedelics aren't a structured way to do shadow work.  Both have their own drawbacks, and there are a lot of people on this forum who can't access either. 

Is there a third option? 

Everything has drawbacks, and people very often make excuses about access that are really about conflicted motivation.

But there are other complimentary options to psychoanalysis: careful expression of feelings in symbolic mediums (journaling, creative painting, etc.) combined with the pursuit of one’s desire, further creative expression, and so on. 

The right spiritual guru.

Sometimes the right kind of social group, support group, new group of friends, mentor. Sometimes even a significant other. 

But of them, analysis and creative expression are the most reliably recommendable.

Edited by winterknight

Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@mandyjw Hi, I just wanted clarification. Did you take psychedelics while doing this therapy and shadow work? Have you taken psychedelics ever?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@winterknight Do you think that one of psychedelics main usefulness is in complete beginners? because myself and my 'spiritual sidekick' (best friend) when we both decided to start meditating, we didn't really benefit from it at all for like 6 months, then one day, we both took some shrooms, and boom its like it all just clicked and now we are so much farther then where we were before. (its like we received out Personalized meditation guidance downloaded directly into our brains. better than listening to all the teachers in the world)

 

Like some people say, psychedelics can give you the first glimpse of the direction you need to go, then you can go there yourself, and maybe take more glimpses when you need them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Everything has drawbacks, and people very often make excuses about access that are really about conflicted motivation.

Are you sure that the conflicted motivation isn't just a sign of not being ready? I'm not sure any method would work if you weren't really passionate about doing it. I believe the desire to do it is key, at least is was for me. 

14 minutes ago, winterknight said:

But there are other complimentary options to psychoanalysis: careful expression of feelings in symbolic mediums (journaling, creative painting, etc.) combined with the pursuit of one’s desire, further creative expression, and so on. 

The right spiritual guru.

Sometimes the right kind of social group, support group, new group of friends, mentor. Sometimes even a significant other. 

But of them, analysis and creative expression are the most reliably recommendable.

Thank you. My experience was a bizarre combination of a lot of those things. I had no idea what was happening at the time, and am still working to understand it. I feel the need to pay it forward. 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

in fact i would think it would be more powerful than a therapist because therapists can't truly understand you - only you can.  You have to discover yourself for yourself - no one is going to do it for you.

This is key. Every teacher or therapist is several steps removed from you and interpretation through filters occurs at each step. It is not direct. 

I’m thinking of an analogy with massage. When I went to a massage therapist for pressure point massage, I would have to give them cues - “a little to the left, a little deeper, it hurts a bit. Not a throbbing pain. No, more like a sharp pain, but not like a neuron kind of shooting pain”. All of this were steps removed from. . . me knowing directly.  There was several steps of interpretation and stuff was lost. The massage therapist did the best they could and had skills. I figured they knew more and better than I did. Then, I got into self massage and it was more direct. I didn’t have to try and explain anything and there was no one trying to interpret what I said through their own filter. There was just knowing. My mind and body intuitively knew what to do. My mind and body intuitively knew exactly where the tension was, how much pressure was needed, the best angle etc. Then it occurred to me that I was better at this than the massage therapist.

In a way, psychedelics can be like that. There comes a point where they can be more powerful than any teacher or psycho-therapist because it is direct. Several interpretation steps and filters are removed: trying to communicate something to a recipient - the recipient interpreting what you said - the other person responding and then the first person now receiving and interpreting. That is four processing steps that are removed. Each of the processing steps involve filters. It can be much more direct and efficient to go in there yourself. I’m not saying it can’t be done without psychedelics as well, psychedelics can cause confusion. Yet when one does this skillfully it is extremely direct and efficient. It’s on a whole nother level than interacting indirectly with other human beings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, AlldayLoop said:

@mandyjw Hi, I just wanted clarification. Did you take psychedelics while doing this therapy and shadow work? Have you taken psychedelics ever?

 

No, I've never taken psychedelics.

 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.