winterknight

I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

4,454 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Why is it that self-inquiry or meditation cannot do the simplest thing like teach you to play the violin?

Do you see how absurd your logic is?

1) Existential realizations have nothing to do with technical skill at manipulating the dream world. You are smart enough to know this.

I thought you said it's kindergarten to God. I mean why would God not be able to do that? Right? Why is there suddenly a difference between a "technical skill" and existential realizations? There must be no difference to God at all. Why did knowledge suddenly become true? Why did logic suddenly become a true measure?

Or, simply this God you're talking about is not all-powerful.

32 minutes ago, winterknight said:

You are demonstrating precisely the dangers of psychedelics, which is to take the by-definition psychotic mental agitations that result to be Truth. 

And you are doing that exact same thing as well. You are demonstrating precisely the dangers of psychoanalysis, which is to take the by-definition psychotic mental agitations that result to be Truth.

That's how your argument looks like from an outsider's perspective. Just like Leo's arguments look like to you.

Quote

There is no such thing as existential realizations of God or Love or ‘facets of the Absolute.’ These are all gibberish dream ideas.

If you don’t understand why it is that there is no God, no Love, and indeed no such thing as realization or enlightenment, you have much farther to go.

You understand that all of those terms are just pointers, right? Just like this pointer you gave.

32 minutes ago, winterknight said:

You might want to start by stopping the psychedelics and entering analysis for a year and seeing what happens.

That's still not a true measure. It's all still in the assumptions zone. Who's to say that it shows the truth?

Edited by Truth Addict

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@Leo Gura While your points are valid and honest, I think the vast majority of people are simply not ready to experience what you call the Absolute head on, no matter the level of commitment or experience. This is not to say that your approach is ineffective, but rather it seems like an approach exclusively for those who have exhausted every and all last possible option that would be able to then do and practice seriously what you recommend.

I think @winterknight’s approach is less taxing to the ego, since it allows the ego more wiggle room. That is, if Leo is comparing say a year’s investment of therapy vs. a few psychedelic breakthroughs. I would imagine that the process of going through the ego backlash and shock for most people who do the latter would be much more demanding than therapy long term.

But then again, one’s desire for the Truth is ultimately what matters, and my opinion probably seems like hogwash compared to the experiences you two have xD

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This is what happen when we reduce 'everything' to God...

 

 

No son did Allah beget, nor is there any God along with Him: (if there were many gods) , behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others. Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to him. [23:91]

 

 

...when we are just creations.

 

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6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Existential realizations have nothing to do with technical skill at manipulating the dream world. You are smart enough to know this.

What about truth/knowledge would that be a valid example that SHOULD be transferable in the 'outside of trip reality' ?

If you can acces direct Truth with a capital T you should be able to acces minor truth/knowledge like some historical fact that you didn't know or something like that ?

That might be a decent test then

 

I say this because I'm skeptical that psychedelics could be self-delusion to some degree, or not, and then if something like that could be clearly tested that would help me a lot to be more confident about them and go fully into that path (and same for many people like me I think)

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5 hours ago, winterknight said:

you don’t understand why it is that there is no God

Honest question, why do you frequently mention God's will then? 


Alternative Rock Music and Spirituality on YouTube: The Buddha Visions

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As for the value of psycho-analytics with a therapist, to investigate beliefs and point of view.. that sounds like much of what a good friendship is suppose to consist of, which has other benefits as well.

I think having a sangha and or meeting the others/building and having friend(groups), is an important and perhaps underrated aspect of the spiritual life.

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9 hours ago, winterknight said:

If you don’t understand why it is that there is no God, no Love, and indeed no such thing as realization or enlightenment, you have much farther to go.

Aren't You enlightened.?

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@winterknight

The absolute is always unchanging and available in the three states.

In waking and dream objects are there hence the confusions.

But in deep sleep there are no objects but why unable to recognize it - suchness in deep sleep ?

???

Edited by Jkris

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2 hours ago, tedens said:

Aren't You enlightened.?

Only at one level of understanding. At a deeper level, there is no enlightenment. But a seeker must act as if there is enlightenment. 

1 hour ago, Jkris said:

@winterknight

The absolute is always unchanging and available in the three states.

In waking and dream objects are there hence the confusions.

But in deep sleep there are no objects but why unable to recognize it - suchness in deep sleep ?

???

The traditional answer is that in deep sleep ignorance still remains, only there is no awareness of objects. Objects are not the cause of confusion — ignorance is.


Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

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12 minutes ago, Ero said:

There ain't a better path. There is your path. Whatever blesses your heart is what you gotta follow. Any other claim assumes things that are just not true.

Not to mention that you can do both. Many do. I did. They are potentially complementary. There's no reason to have to choose.

Edited by winterknight

Website/book/one-on-one spiritual guidance: Sifting to the Truth: A New Map to the Self

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35 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Not to mention that you can do both. Many do. I did. They are potentially complementary. There's no reason to have to choose.

This. But Leo seems to be strongly for just psychedelics as opposed to both, which could be dangerous advice for majority of people. I understand that his teachings are for advanced practitioners, but I’d bet a good number of his followers are “newbies” and will fall into a trap of thinking they’re more advanced than they really are. They’ll follow the advice blindly and probably do more harm than good to themselves. Just hope Leo understand that his teachings are powerful, but at the same time have a high risk factor. “With great power comes great responsibility”. 

Edited by AlldayLoop

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1 hour ago, AlldayLoop said:

But Leo seems to be strongly for just psychedelics as opposed to both, which could be dangerous advice for majority of people. 

Is that really so? I didn't get that impression to be honest. 

And @winterknight thanks for making this statement. That's what I feel this all boils down to right? Why not do both? Why discuss about which one is better if you just combined the two and honored both of their unique powers. I'm really looking forward to implement the therapy with psychedelic work. 

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As someone whose met a fair amount of “very enlightened people” (whatever that means), some who have extensive history with serious deliberate psychedelic history and has actually met and hung out with @winterknight, and as someone whose had glimpses (or “experiences”) and also has had what some seem to find profound states on psychedelics,my feedback might be useful.

First I want to pose the following point that seems to be overlooked here... There seems to be an assumption on many people’s mind that a lot of genuinely enlightened teachers and masters haven’t “gone all the way” (again, notice the underlying assumption there) because they haven’t done 5-MeO-DMT or other powerful substances. What I find interesting here though is that here you actually DO have a genuinely enlightened person, and Winterknight is enlightened, I’ll tell you that right now (of course even that is false), who has had done 5-MeO and used psychedelics on his path and his downright telling you that it ain’t it. In yet a lot of you on here react as though he doesn’t know what he’s talking about (as though the majority of you do - maybe all, I don’t know, wouldn’t be surprised). I find that very interesting. 

As far as my own irrelevant glimpses, Emptiness, Godhead, Presence, Silence, etc. is the same independent of states. The illusion of “I” be having a different relative experience that may be that of expansion to seemingly every thing, but the I believes it’s experience still doesn’t exist however big or small the experience is. If there is an identification of an “I”, that ain’t it. That doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with the experience, it just isn’t grounded in Truth... in yet it is. Neither is nor isn’t. 

I also wanted to comment on this critique people are making on psychotherapy and analysis here which I find rather ironic. I even remember asking Winterknight when I met him. Analysis is and strong psychotherapy is about dealing  with self deception. Why is an illusory other (as though the “I” is any less illusory) often very much necessary? Why does Winterknight push analysis? Emotional purification. Emotional purification is a silent mind. Unless you have the grace of not a lot of unconscious trauma that doesn’t need therapy and understand your own self deception - and as far as I’m concerned, I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t need therapy really to look into their own assumptions and shadows - you, this “I” cannot go deep enough to really truly work on its own self deception or unconscious. Why? The eye doesn’t see itself. Or I should say, the “I” doesn’t see itself. Even if it’s a very “evolved” and inclusive “I”. There’s a reason people like Ken Wilber stress shadow work and how you CAN’T do shadow work on your own. Meditation is often extremely hard and often not even doable for certain people because they have so much unconscious needs that haven’t been met, traumas, etc. You don’t just go up Maslows hierarchy through external actions. I can attest to every time I’ve had a glimpse into the truth (and of course that’s false but pardon the limits of lanaguage) is always after an emotional release and my mind is finally quiet and I can go into deep Samadhi and realize that which is always ever present. Concentration is hard because you have a very agitated mind whose unconscious is not fully purified, or integrated, or whatever other fancy silly word we want to use. 

I think Winterknight recommending analysis is actually good for this forum because the amount of shadows and projections I see from people and even myself is just ridiculous in how NO ONE is saying that you’re not going to the root of your own self deception and projections purely on your own. There is no one actually teaching anyone on shadow work nor is there any vehicle for doing it. I can even see this on many people on here (which I had to notice in myself in order to stop) that many of you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about at all as it’s clear you just unconsciously imprint off Leo. It’s in your language and how you talk. You parrot what he says. 

Hopefully this raises some awareness and is useful. 

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15 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I thought you said it's kindergarten to God. I mean why would God not be able to do that? Right? Why is there suddenly a difference between a "technical skill" and existential realizations? There must be no difference to God at all. Why did knowledge suddenly become true? Why did logic suddenly become a true measure?

Or, simply this God you're talking about is not all-powerful.

There is no God apart from you. As you die (ie psychedelic death) you embody it/him.
The desire to learn to play violin is the dream of the Ego that struggles against what is arising.
To God, using power to manipulate reality is unthinkable because reality is perfect as it is.
That does not deny God's omnipotence, God is bound by law (love) that is its own being.

Knowledge and logic are only true for the Ego because it has an objective that diverges from the present moment.
Existential insights are the class of knowledge that is true through its capacity to relieve one from the egoic struggle for freedom.
That is why realizing the truth (intellectually or through embodiment/death) does not let you off the hook when it comes to survival and the capacity to survive is not the measure of one's spiritual depth.

Edited by tsuki

The true heresy is hearsay.

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Analysis, whether it is self-analysis or analysis performed by a psychyotherapist -- can it lead to further self-deception by reinforcing the division between the "I" (self-analyzer) and that which is being analyzed (accumulated experiences/memories/knowledge/beliefs), when in fact the "I" is one and the same process as that which is being analyzed?

As Krishnamurti has said,

Quote

"Analysis implies division. There is the analyser and that which is to be analysed. Whether you analyse yourself, or it is done by a specialist, there is division, therefore there is already the beginning of conflict."

Quote

As we said, there is division between the analyser and the thing to be analysed, division between the observer and the thing observed: this is the root cause of conflict. When you observe, you always do so from a centre, from the background of experience and knowledge; the `me' as the Catholic, the Communist, the `specialist, and so on, is observing. So there is a division between `me' and the thing observed. This does not require a great deal of understanding, it is an obvious fact. When you look at a tree, at your husband, or wife, there is this division. It exists between yourself and the community. So there is this observer and the thing observed: in that division there is inevitably contradiction. That contradiction is the root of all strife.

 

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@tsuki

That makes perfect sense! Thank you ❤️

I wouldn't call that "God" though. I think "the authentic self" is a better term for it. God would be the integration of both the ego and the authentic self.

Also, let's say there's no struggle for freedom, and yet there's still a desire to learn the violin, a desire stemming from love. Is it possible to learn it without actually practising it? I read stories about people learning foreign languages randomly, unwillingly, and instantaneously. I don't see a reason why that would not be true in a dream world.

Edited by Truth Addict

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12 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I wouldn't call that "God" though. I think "the authentic self" is a better term for it. God would be the integration of both the ego and the authentic self.

You cannot integrate God with Ego because God is the bottom on top of which Ego exists.
It seems to me like you're calling highly evolved Egos 'authentic' because they pursue their goals gracefully (cooperation instead of violence).  

22 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Also, let's say there's no struggle for freedom, and yet there's still a desire to learn the violin, a desire stemming from love.

If there is desire to learn the violin, then that very desire is the desire for freedom.
You can actualize your freedom by learning the skill, or letting go, but the freedom one seeks is always freedom from desire. Desire is suffering.
Love in the sense that I used that word is not synonymous with appreciation, enjoyment, or things that are generally understood as desirable.
Love is the law, God's being, the way in which God is. It actualizes itself as the present moment out of necessity and has no opposites. Egoic struggle is not an opposite of Love, it follows from it.

25 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Is it possible to learn it without actually practising it? I read stories about people learning foreign languages randomly instantaneously. I don't see a reason why that would not be true.

From the point of view of God, the hardship of practice is the practice of hardship ;).
It is just you being lost in your mind while you play the awesome piece you're creating on the fly.

But in all seriousness, it is possible, but it's spontaneous. It's not possible to plan for this when you've given yourself to Love.


The true heresy is hearsay.

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