Soonhei (Member of this community) killed himself to experience Conscious Death. :-(

[Etherial Cat]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Had Soonhei made a public post where he said he was considering jumping off a cliff, I have no doubt whatsoever that our members would have stepped in and talked him down -- assuming he was willing to listen. And I would certainly have reprimanded him for even considering such a thing seriously if my eyes caught glance of such a thread. But you also have to understand, I cannot personally see or supervise every thread on this forum. There's just too much volume of stuff here.

He actually did. Nobody caught it until it was too late. 

The issue is that a suicidal message isn't always clear.

A post written by someone who's going through a derealization phase might come off as just strange and difficult to interpret.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[Terell Kirby]

@Leo Gura I think it would helpful to post a PSA video on the blog to talk to forum members about this. It would be unfortunate to see this community break apart due to the confusion that these kinds of events lead to. At the core, it is a mis interpretation of your teachings in which some of us take the concept of God realization and use it to justify selfishness. Yes, ones actions don't impact the imaginary human - but it does impact the consciousness that is having the human experience. The shit that all of us do on this Earth matters...God realized or not. Solipsism and nihilism is not Truth...but I believe your last video set a lot of viewers down this path.

I would agree that some spiritual teachers have a softer approach than you. There are benefits to this, but this is not to say you should change your style. It may just need to be re-iterated that we as viewers and followers of Actualized.org are responsible for our interpretations.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Terell Kirby

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

He actually did. Nobody caught it until it was too late.

That post only looks like a suicide post in retrospect. If he hadn't jumped you would never know he was seriously considering it.

10 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

@Leo Gura I think it would helpful to post a PSA video on the blog to talk to forum members about this. It would be unfortunate to see this community break apart due to the confusion that these kinds of events lead to. At the core, it is a mis interpretation of your teachings in which some of us take the concept of God realization and use it to justify selfishness. Yes, ones actions don't impact the imaginary human - but it does impact the consciousness that is having the human experience. ...Solipsism and nihilism is not Truth...but I believe your last video set a lot of viewers down this path.

I will definitely make a video.

I actually already recorded a video last week about nihilism which will be released some time in the next few weeks. That video clears up common misconceptions and mistakes of nihilism.

But I will make a video specifically about misinterpretation of the teachings and the dangers of deconstructing one's mind. I am happy to make such a video because it is core to what I teach.

10 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

The shit that all of us do on this Earth matters...God realized or not.

Actually it doesn't matter. But that is not a truth most people are willing to understand or accept.

The thing is, Truth is a very radical and dangerous thing. Which is why Truth has been suppressed from mankind for thousands of years. The thing is, when the rubber meets the road, you will not care about Truth, you will care about survival and your feelings. This is how life works. It is a game, but its a very brutal game, and when you get brutalized you will not care that it is a game because you are too hurt to care.

[Preety_India]

I am a suicidal person on this forum. 

And Leo is very right about whatever he said above 

I have been battling suicidal thoughts since my teenage.

However this forum has helped me stay afloat.

Whenever I had those thoughts I wrote them in my journal or tried seeking help in the emotional support section.

Yea 3 years being on this forum I reduced my suicidal tendency down by 60%. Not enough but significant progress.

I cannot vouch that I won't commit suicide in the future as that is not a guarantee. Being suicidal is like living with diabetes. There are highs and lows. Some periods are suicide-thought free and some are very intense. It's an episodic problem but with constant care it can be managed.

Without this forum, it would have been much harder for me to control my suicidal ideation, I could have resorted to self harm.

In past 3 years my self harm incidents have been limited to 2. Which is great,given I have a long history of self harm.

Just being on the forum has helped to keep suicide thoughts away a great deal even without asking members.

Even if I did bad things, I will never blame the forum for it, because the forum actually helped me stay away from bad things.

 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, sda said:

@Leo Gura I have a question. Will you use Soonhei as an example in the video?

Maybe. Still contemplating how to speak about this.

The issue here is that people love to use such cases as an excuse to demonize the work. So I'm in a position where on the one hand I have to speak about the dangers of spiritual work, but on the other hand I have to do it in a way where devils don't weaponize my words against me. It's a challenging position to be in because there is PR aspect to all this and I'm not here with a PR team. People are itching to demonize Actualized.org in any way they can and so I have to be mindful of that while also being sensitive Soonhei's family and so forth.

This issue is serious but it also needs to be framed correctly because I already see people using this as an excuse to let their projections and criticisms of my teachings run wild.

I have a lot of nuanced things to say on the matter but the nature of this beast is that people don't like to hear nuanced things, they like to demonize and smear reputations.

[Terell Kirby]

@Leo Gura You displaying empathy is all that's needed to battle the trolls of Actualized.org. Much respect to the enormous tasks you are taking on with bringing this to the masses. There are a lot of us here who support you and believe in your vision. Godspeed and thank you.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

You displaying empathy is all that's needed to battle the trolls of Actualized.org

Unfortunately that does not stop the trolls and cynics.

But we shall see. I expect backlash over all this regardless. We will try to make the best of it. The problem with running any kind of spiritual community is that scandals like this will happen because humans are humans and collective ego dynamics are at play.

I notice plenty of you have grievances with me and we will probably need separate thread to let you air them out.

[Preety_India]

I would actually expect Leo to appear a little more often in the emotional section of the forum 

It gives a bad feeling when he is rarely there as though he is looking down on people with emotional issues.

I understand that he is not a professional expert in such matters but even saying to someone that they should not commit suicide or self harm. If it helps it helps.

I wish he did that.

Im not saying regularly. 

But at least once a week in that section would look like he cares and doesn't look away from people who got emotional issues 

I mean this is a self development forum. It can look pretty demonizing to ignore emotional issues. It is a part of self development after all.

 

Once a week appearance is not asking for too much.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Preety_India

[PepperBlossoms]

@Muhammad Jawad @SoonHei I am so sorry for your loss.  That must be very tough and painful.  Take the time you need to mourn.  I hope you can find some new friends @Muhammad Jawad but knowing that the new ones won't be the same.  I hope your family, the wife, and the children will be okay @SoonHei.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by PepperBlossoms

[Terell Kirby]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually it doesn't matter. But that is not a truth most people are willing to understand or accept.

The thing is, Truth is a very radical and dangerous thing. Which is why Truth has been suppressed from mankind for thousands of years. The thing is, when the rubber meets the road, you will not care about Truth, you will care about survival and your feelings. This is how life works. It is a game, but its a very brutal game, and when you get brutalized you will not care that it is a game because you are too hurt to care.

@Leo Gura I would agree, but as you have expressed in the past...in the relative domain, everything matters. Viewers mis-interpret this, and turns it into Zen devilry and a lack of consideration for others. There's a bit of a theme going that survival and feelings are bad things that are simply not accepted as part of Truth, when in reality it is as just as anything else...from an absolute perspective. We must honor our survival mechanisms and feelings...then integrate them in the highest way possible. I will refer to your 'Ego Collapse Awakening' blog post...the question posed at the end: "how do we square awakening with survival?". Awakening can turn into nihilism and suicide when we don't practically deal with survival, feelings and other human shit.

[SpiritualAwakening]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I notice plenty of you have grievances with me and we will probably need separate thread to let you air them out.

I don't think people have grievances necessarily, I feel like people would love to experience the Heart-side of Leo and less Mind-sided.

[RMQualtrough]

@Terell Kirby Nihilism ought not to be seen as a negative. I think that is down to objective vs subjective again. In actual fact Nihilism is very freeing and positive, as opposed to something like a dictatorship where a higher power is imposing rules and such on us, and we have to do X, Y or Z to have lived a meaningful existence.

Just a perspective change... Put more emphasis on subjectivity and a lot of the oddities like existential crisis is less likely.

Why not kill myself? Because I feel happy and content. The objective truth matters no more than if someone advised you go stick your hand in a bee hive. Does it really matter the absolute reality of the thing?

[kieranperez]

@Leo Gura l’m sure you’ve considered this but I would highly recommend you look into maybe creating safeguards around what you teach. I personally don’t agree with many of your newer teachings and approaches. That said, your work has undoubtedly saved many lifes and actually kept people from killing themselves. I say that because I am one of those people. I think you’re actually very clear on many of the things people take for granted. That said man, it might be wise to create some safe guards. 

For example, I know certain particular Zen masters that have very real and powerful siddhis that have talked openly about that stuff with me. However, they don’t share their more advanced teachings except for those that have demonstrated they can be trusted and have earned those teachings through merit and hard work. This is true for virtually any school or lineage. Of course, that’s not really how you have established yourself but putting yourself out there for the kind a things you have to say to the general public has dangers that I imagine might backfire on you in a few years. Although this is the sort of second coming of the psychedelic renaissance, its also introducing psychedelics to a culture that is utterly clueless and stupid about many of the things you, myself, and (hopefully) many others on this forum do our homework on. This project failed with the boomers that were 2.5 times less narcissistic (there’s a 2013 Time magazine study that goes into this) than millennials (god help Gen Z). Quite frankly I don’t trust the responsibility and the power that will be in the hands of these people, regardless of whether or not this movement gets co-opted by corporate interests (which, as far as I’m concerned, it probably will). And I imagine a lot of people have their target set on you so it might not be the best strategy down the road.

Just something to consider. Like I said, I may disagree with some of your stances in terms of spirituality and what not, but by and large you seem like a guy who has his head on straight and god knows your worked literally saved my life so I’d hate to see you go down. Best of luck in navigating this. 

[Leo Gura]

42 minutes ago, SpiritualAwakening said:

I don't think people have grievances necessarily, I feel like people would love to experience the Heart-side of Leo and less Mind-sided.

I understand some of you feel that way, but I am not here to be who you think I should be.

I see that many of you are into this idea and are frustrated that I don't indulge your ideas of how an ideal guru is supposed to behave. But at some point you will understand that consciousness and love can be expressed in many different ways, not just as a bleeding heart.

To me, mind IS heart.

But I know what you mean and I understand why you want it. But from my POV what you want of me would not be true to who I authentically am. The more conscious I become the more authentic I act, but the more it turns some of you off because it does not fit your image of some happy go lucky blissed out feminine guru who personally loves you.

I don't personally love you. I love you in a deeply metaphysical way which you probably do not feel or understand. And I am not going to try to fake a personal love for you to fit some stereotype of the ideal guru.

[diamondpenguin]

Yeah guys Leo's personality is intp. Hes a logician, a scientist. The motherfucker was a rocket scientist in his first two years in college. Leo is a scientist guys, that's the way they are. That's why I love Leo's work at first, because he comes at truth from a scientific logician perspective. Not from a feeley woohoo fairy fairy brainless social butterfly hippie non experimental place. He really does science with the psychedelics. It's really cool for science nerds like me. And leo is science nerd too! So Science Nerd Power! 

[VeganAwake]

With all due respect to his family, friends and this community.

It's nobody's fault... nobody's.

Like Leo said, nobody really knows what was going on there. 

Often times this sort of thing is long planned and hidden very well so it won't be interrupted unfortunately.

In 2013 we lost a friend that was playing poker with us the very night before he shot himself in the armory the next morning... literally no one saw it coming, it was absolutely mind-boggling and tragic at the time.

There are lots of Suicide Prevention programs available nowadays.... the one they taught us was called ACT.

A-ask

C-care

T-treat

 

❤

 

 

[charlie cho]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I will say this and teach this whether you decide to torture someone or not. If you decide to torture someone, those consequence are 100% on you, even though its all a dream. Dreams have consequences.

In a dark room, even when what you have seen is just a rope, you can believe it to be a snake. You will perspiring, you will become exhausted, your heart will pound, you cry, and you may faint because of it too. The reality is that there was never a snake in your room, just a rope. A simple rope has made such an impact on you. Some actually die of fear because they have such idiotic dreams. So there is a consequence in the real world when you have a phantom, a dream, or a false idea in your mind. Be wary of what you believe in. Be wary of what dreams you have. A dream has endless powers to destroy you, from money problems, relationship problems, illness, to death. In fact, as you may know, the cause of most illnesses come out of mental phantoms. 

[SpiritualAwakening]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't indulge your ideas of how an ideal guru is supposed to behave.

I don't have an "ideal guru" I love your work

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But at some point you will understand that consciousness and love can be expressed in many different ways, not just as a bleeding heart.

We're already way beyond that point, I see where you're coming from, not asking to pour out the bleeding heart.

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But from my POV what you want of me would not be true to who I authentically am.

Showing the Heart-side is not authenticity? At least it's not some foundational framework, context or constructs. To me Heart is as much a part of True Understanding as of Mind

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

your image of some happy go lucky blissed out feminine guru who personally loves you.

Oh please don't..

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't personally love you.

Ew you freak! Lol

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I love you in a deeply metaphysical way which you probably do not feel or understand. And I am not going to try to fake a personal love for you to fit some stereotype of the ideal guru.

I Know the way you love us Leo as I feel the same way to myself and therefore to all of man-kind, all I'm trying to say is teachings aren't just mind sided but I know it's the way you like to go about things. Also I don't have some stereotype guru, I'm purely talking from my own Seeing and experience.

Edited May 20, 2021 by SpiritualAwakening

[jimwell]

6 hours ago, Preety_India said:

8 hours ago, jimwell said:

@SoonHei

He sent me a message once. I hadn't talked to him and didn't know him but he was compassionate and positive in his message. So, the good things you said about your brother must be true. 

I feel very sad about what happened to him. I wish he had chosen a different decision or place. Continue grieving, but from time to time, remember he is at least free from any form of suffering now and can't be harmed in any way. And that the best thing you can do is to finally overcome the grief. That is probably what he wants for you and the rest of his family.

 

To Leo and forum members here:

Making crazy claims but can't back it up with actions have already done much harm. If you had walked more and talked less, you would have been more careful in your talks. You would have changed your claims from "Life and Death are imaginary. Don;t worry about it. Look at me, I don't". "You are God and Only you exist, your family and friends don't. SO don't worry about it. Look at me, I don't."     to     "Life and Death are real. And so is pain. So be careful. But when you get to a point where your consciousness gets so elevated, you see Life, Death, Family, and Friends as imaginary, still be careful. Because imagination is also real."

Most humans are easily persuaded by "authority" figures. So, they tend to believe things, no matter how outlandish and absurd they are. My speculation is Sunny believed he could finally awaken from the "imaginary dream" of life after jumping from the bridge. It was a dogmatic belief, no skepticism and no experience of "awakening" or "God-realization". I also speculate there have been many followers of Leo (vulnerable ones) who have been harmed directly or indirectly via his teachings. But we never heard of them because nobody reported.

The messages between you and him are so ironic and haunting.

 

@Preety_India

Yes, that is why his death devastates me. If he hadn't sent me this message, I wouldn't have been as affected.

My heart is wounded right now. I hope death really is heaven for him.

Edited May 20, 2021 by jimwell
added user

[Absolute]

May he realize what he couldn't realize in the next dream..