Soonhei (Member of this community) killed himself to experience Conscious Death. :-(

[Zeroguy]

1 minute ago, Moksha said:

People can have multiple awakenings before enlightenment. Very few are fully enlightened, which is beyond Self-realization, and is the dissolving of all attachments.

If someone tells you they are enlightened, they probably also have a bridge to sell.

Were you ever been full blackie or not. 

That's enlightenment. 

Dissolving all attachments is not enlightenment.That's half backed Neo Advaita level. Absolute state of Conciousness is. 

[Moksha]

29 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Just one thing. I read a lot of criticism regarding Leo and Actualized.org.

My criticism is of the limited perspective of solipsism, which Leo's teachings are well beyond. If people only see nothingness, and are blind to infinite Love, it is a reflection of their current journey, and not of anything Leo has taught.

[Zeroguy]

Add these "all attachments loss" beleifs and add on top of that Leo teachings taken as beleifs and you get real chaos in heads. 

Most of these guys didn't really go further then trying to make just more accurate Reality worldview. 

That's dangerous. 

[Dodo]

14 minutes ago, sda said:

@ivankiss But why did he kill himself? What was in it for him? What do you think about it?

he wanted to get to the next dream, he was ready to let go of the body and be everything,  consciousness itself. Where else can he be? Like Ramana Maharshi, so is SoonHei everywhere around us. But I would have delayed it.

The problem.is  he perceived reality as a dream as I see it. And in the dream only you are real and the rest are figments of your imagination.  So you live as the main character in your movie dream and then go to the next...

Now they are the ones who will suffer... And likely him, if in the afterlife he realises it was a big mistake he can't change

Edited May 19, 2021 by Dodo

[Moksha]

@Zeroguy Definitions are self-limiting. Choose whatever makes sense to you.

Ultimately, there is no enlightenment, beyond relative reality. It is a word, used to describe an "individual's" realization and expression of their ultimate nature.

It is not just seeing the fire, it is also living by it. If you are still bound by attachments, you are not fully enlightened.

One who has merely heard of fire has ajnana, ignorance. One who has seen fire has jnana. But one who has actually built a fire and cooked on it has vijnana.

- Ramakrishna

The awakened sages call a person wise when all his undertakings are free from anxiety about results; all his selfish desires have been consumed in the fire of knowledge…Their security is unaffected by the results of their action; even while acting, they really do nothing at all.

- Bhagavad Gita 4:19-20

[Null Simplex]

This topic very much reminds me of the end of this video.  I've linked it to the correct time.

"Still frustrated, you know.  One of the biggest frustrations is how … what do you do after this?  How do you reach those levels of consciousness naturally, in the 'sober' state?  How do you make it 'permanent'?  You see the thing is is that people who say that 'Oh well Leo it wasn't permanent so it's not real.', but what you don't understand is that the distinction between permanent and impermanent is complete bullshit.  There's no difference between permanent and impermanent.  That's your own imposition.  Consciousness doesn't care if it's permanent or impermanent.  You could have full, infinite God consciousness for one second.  And it's genuine, it's exactly what it is.  It's infinite God consciousness, it's absolute consciousness.  Infinite omniscience for one second, then it's gone.  That doesn't mean it wasn't real, it just means it was there, and now it's not there.  You were fully awake, now you're half asleep.  That's what it means.  Can you be that awake all the time?  Maybe, I don't know.  What does it take to become that awake?  Meditation, yoga, self inquiry, more 5-MeO? I don't know, I don't know.  Maybe it's not possible at all in the human body.  Maybe you have to put a gun in your mouth and shoot yourself.  I don't know, there's a lot of possibilities."

Edited May 19, 2021 by Null Simplex

[Preety_India]

The user @Bojan V is constantly being gaslighted on this thread.

 

[JonasVE12]

Maybe an unconscious escape from unconscious suffering that he completely dissociated from when identifying so much with 'seeking'. You will never arrive if you haven't solved emotional issues. Even after you get 'there', but still not feel fulfilled, the seeking doesn't end. But of course this whole journey perpetuates that the ego is somehow less valid and it is more 'true' to escape it and chase infinity. It has a lot to do with how biased people are here on the forum. 

Is it an authentic persuit of truth or an unconscious escape. Guess we will never know that.

I just hate that too many people are putting out the notion that duality is illusion and less 'real'. For example, Leo said some time ago after his 30 days of experimenting with 5 MEO DMT that he achieved much higher levels of consciousness and enlightenment then for example the popular enlightenment teachers and masters. He explicitly said that. There is only one truth and that is pure being and nothing else. Everything else is bullshit. Don't misunderstand states of consciousness and temporary/permanent individuality dissolution with higher levels of enlightenment. There is no levels of enlightenment. Awakening is awakening. Of course you can awaken to many facets of truth, and deconstruct the mind, and in the end you merge with truth. But all is now. Why death. It does not get you closer to infinity. Give up your ego, which is attachment, but don't give up your individuality. Come on. 

[Zeroguy]

1 minute ago, Moksha said:

@Zeroguy Definitions are self-limiting. Choose whatever makes sense to you.

Ultimately, there is no enlightenment, beyond relative reality. It is a word, used to describe an "individual's" realization and expression of their ultimate nature.

It is not just seeing the fire, it is also living by it. If you are still bound by attachments, you are not fully enlightened.

One who has merely heard of fire has ajnana, ignorance. One who has seen fire has jnana. But one who has actually built a fire and cooked on it has vijnana.

- Ramakrishna

The awakened sages call a person wise when all his undertakings are free from anxiety about results; all his selfish desires have been consumed in the fire of knowledge…Their security is unaffected by the results of their action; even while acting, they really do nothing at all.

- Bhagavad Gita 4:19-20

Don't want to argue with you or do I care about some scripts. 

It's not really about enlightenment at all. It is about responsability, your own responsability. 

Love life whats wrong with it? 

[Moksha]

@Etherial Cat I agree. Nobody's teachings should be taken as gospel. At best, they only point to the truth that is already within you. Once the truth is realized, the teachings can be set aside as a raft that helped you across the river, and is no longer needed.

[Preety_India]

2 hours ago, jimwell said:

@SoonHei

He sent me a message once. I hadn't talked to him and didn't know him but he was compassionate and positive in his message. So, the good things you said about your brother must be true. 

I feel very sad about what happened to him. I wish he had chosen a different decision or place. Continue grieving, but from time to time, remember he is at least free from any form of suffering now and can't be harmed in any way. And that the best thing you can do is to finally overcome the grief. That is probably what he wants for you and the rest of his family.

 

To Leo and forum members here:

Making crazy claims but can't back it up with actions have already done much harm. If you had walked more and talked less, you would have been more careful in your talks. You would have changed your claims from "Life and Death are imaginary. Don;t worry about it. Look at me, I don't". "You are God and Only you exist, your family and friends don't. SO don't worry about it. Look at me, I don't."     to     "Life and Death are real. And so is pain. So be careful. But when you get to a point where your consciousness gets so elevated, you see Life, Death, Family, and Friends as imaginary, still be careful. Because imagination is also real."

Most humans are easily persuaded by "authority" figures. So, they tend to believe things, no matter how outlandish and absurd they are. My speculation is Sunny believed he could finally awaken from the "imaginary dream" of life after jumping from the bridge. It was a dogmatic belief, no skepticism and no experience of "awakening" or "God-realization". I also speculate there have been many followers of Leo (vulnerable ones) who have been harmed directly or indirectly via his teachings. But we never heard of them because nobody reported.

The messages between you and him are so ironic and haunting.

 

[Moksha]

3 minutes ago, Zeroguy said:

Love life whats wrong with it? 

Amen!

[lmfao]

Rest in peace the homie 

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Zeroguy said:

Actual enlightenment can cause real psychotic breakdowns and so many other "great stuff". 

Not all sunshine and rainbows with this. 

Serious questions etc. 

This is true. I have suffered bouts of derealization and also very briefly existential crisis. Often accompanied with thoughts like "I don't want to know anymore!"

Remember the Russian woman in the Crystal Skull Indiana Jones movie?

Knowing is not necessarily a good thing.

[Zeroguy]

9 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Amen!

Be well wish you all the best. 

RIP @SoonHei.

Unbeleivable. Just... Have no words. 

 

 

[Preety_India]

Leo is not responsible for this. Anyone putting blame on Leo and his work is being far too simplistic. Everyone is eventually responsible for what they do in life although they could be misled and brainwashed in this work.

I believe some people in this forum engage in too much spiritual platitudes and using empty philosophical rhetoric to explain real life problems which can be very damaging and feel like gaslighting. Not saying that this is responsible for the suicide, yet brainwashing of any form is harmful to psychological health and can easily derail you. Some objectivity is necessary. This is a question where lines between reality and spirituality are blurred and so being objective helps you to stay grounded. A few days back Leo told me to not be a pig about survival but be a butterfly hovering over survival yet not being too attached to it. The problem is such teachings look great in words but hard to test against reality. The lesson to be drawn here is that as much as you realise that all you learn about spirituality is very true, yet in real life you cannot simply apply spiritual aspects because reality of being a human is not compatible with spiritual teachings and so realize that truth is truth yet truth is not applicable in reality which is also another truth. Don't be too carried away by spiritual truths where you begin to blur lines and take everything for granted and lose sight of objectivity in everyday circumstances. Spiritual understanding should come with the awareness that the world and reality aren't operating on these principles and so learning the truth is one thing but be carefull about how you go around applying it, it shouldn't be applied literally. Logic is the key. Use objective sense with everyday situations not spiritual platitudes. It's all cute when you listen to these things but your reality shouldn't be defined around these things. Keep your life separated from teachings and understand it's limitations with respect to the real world. Some teachings are useful and so apply those and those that are not objectively useful should only be used for awareness of truth.

Leo is not responsible for this. When you are into the kind of work Leo does, you need to come into it with the personal responsibility that all you do is solely based on how you interpret things. You need a serious commitment and work ethic in this kind of work where you won't do things that are irresponsible in the quest for spirituality. You need to be aware that this work is not tailored for those who are not adequately prepared to take the consequences of the revelations you will have on this path. If you think that this work is distorting your reality,then perhaps it's not meant for you, however don't blame the work or Leo. it's your level of self responsibility and open mindedness that counts on this path.

You need some serious skill and intellect and responsibility to survive on this path and the struggle can be very daunting. So before you sign up for something like this,mentally take a not and understand that do's and don'ts and be aware of how not to twist your reality by what you're going to learn,hard to do but it's one of the challenges that is very inherent with such work and if you're a poor judge of reality then you're going to be having a hard time reconciling spiritual truths and objectivity. Understanding the crucial differences between objectivity based simple self help designed to improve survival versus hard spiritual practice that transcends survival is extremely important.

[Carl-Richard]

@Preety_India There is a reason why some gurus have secret teachings. Then again, technically any non-dual teaching can be misunderstood in this direction. It then boils down to how explicit you want to be about it. Then the question becomes if Leo were to establish essentially a monk order where only the advanced seekers get access to the juicy parts, then that certainly wouldn't help the cult accusations (not that they're valid in any way). The problem in this case though is that SoonHei gave the impression of being a rather advanced seeker in many ways, which strengthens the case that you can't account for everything. These things do happen and it's sad, yet that is life.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[billiesimon]

3 hours ago, kinesin said:

@Tim R "Leo can't be held responsible for anything his followers/listeners do, it's 100% up to them." is a cop out.  That may be legally true, but it isn't morally true.  In truth if Leo wants to be a responsible 'teacher' to so many people, his approach will need to change fundamentally.

He simply isn't careful enough, considering the number of people out there who mistake him for an enlightened holder of absolute truth.  He's far too glib, he gives short superficial answers to questions which deserve far more care.  Just a few days ago I saw him post this, which at the time I called out as irresponsible.  It's a good example of the issue -

No, he's not irresponsible. When undergoing a metaphysical discussion we have to talk about life, death, meaning, void, etc.... It's not his responsibility if people misunderstand metaphysics as physics.

Metaphysics is NOT physics.

The fact that perceptions are imagined by the True Self does NOT mean that shooting a bullet into your head will make the body lively and happy.

 

Going beyond life is dangerous. Of course. If you've had glimpses of awakening you should know that you are traveling beyond survival.

 

Of course I'm sorry for SoonHei, and I want his family to be well and safe.

 

But leave metaphysics out of the discussion, because that's becoming witch hunting.....

[Preety_India]

@Carl-Richard yes you cannot take these examples and then take fault with the teaching. Whether it's Leo or some other guru, what you take from them is up to you unless it's a serious brainwashing cult,in which case the person being brainwashed has partial culpability not full..

[billiesimon]

2 hours ago, kinesin said:

Yeah, that thread is indeed quite a good example of it.  I found one of his comments in there to be a particularly egregious demonstration of his lack of insight.  Truly, Leo is living in a dream world and needs to wake up and realise he's speaking to actual, living people when he gives such poorly thought out teachings.

Again.... this is risking of turning into a witch hunt 

Don't do that. Be smarter and recognize that someone committed suicide and we DON'T know what he was thinking! He must have had some kind of hidden depression or some dark night of the soul, or other well-concealed problems. Nobody here ever suggested suicide....

Stop the inquisition before it becomes a pitchfork mob.... Don't fall in mass unconsciousness. (I'm talking to everyone, not just you )