Is not eating Meat crucial for Enlightenment?

[Charlotte]

19 minutes ago, Outer said:

A robot can also defend itself.

A robot will be programmed by man to defend itself. A tree has not.

[lmfao]

When it comes to the ethical standing of killing animals for food I'm not concerned about the fact that I've "robbed a life" the same way I am of humans,  but I wonder how much pain do animals feel compared to humans. Like when you kill a human you think "I've robbed this person of their hopes and dreams" and etc but that's not very applicable to non-humans imo. 

Could killing animals be comparable to killing human infants in terms of the suffering you generate in a conscious being? In both cases you are killing creatures of comparable intelligence. I wonder how much pain an animal feels relative to humans. Because if killing animals is comparable to killing human babies then I think there will come a time in the future where humans will look back on us past generations and think "I can't believe those barbarians ate meat when there wasn't a need to" and they will look down on us in the same way we might look down on past civilisations for human slavery and other injustices. I don't think that killing animals generates the same amount of suffering as killing a human infant, but if the comparison is at the very least a bit valid I think there may be something to reflect upon. Because I know that I myself would barely hesitate in killing an non-human animal, but this would not be the case for humans for me. Perhaps there is a double standard here.

Perhaps we suffer from "speciesism" but this speciesism is hardwired into nature at a far, far deeper level than other things like racism. Despite the arguments I've provided for not eating meat, I'm still gonna eat meat and love it and I know I'm probably a hypocrite but I don't feel guilty. 

@Tony 845 There are two angles I have on your question from both a chemical and psychological point of view. The first angle is very quick to look at. I think its extremely, extremely unlikely that eating meat will cause your body chemistry to be incompatible with enlightenment. Eating meat is natural is for us humans biologically (and even psychologically which I will now discuss). 

Let's consider "evil" in the conventional sense of the word. You cause suffering to others and are an asshole (e.g. rapist, murderer, thief etc). Even if killing animals and eating them when there is no need to is an evil act, the evil act is hardwired into our biological essence that it won't have the same impact on your psyche as other evil acts like human murder. Like theoretically speaking, a human murderer can become enlightened its just that it's unlikely because most human murderers have a fucked up psyche. But even if killing and eating animals is "evil", the act of doing so is not nearly highly correlated with a fucked up psyche the same way rape/murder is correlated with a fucked up psyche. This is further true if you are only eating the meat and are not killing the animals yourself. 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by lmfao

[lmfao]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Why is killing animals any more wrong than killing insects?  Why is killing animals any more wrong than killing trees?  Who is doing the killing?  

To say that killing animals is wrong or not wrong we play the game of philosophy. We start off with axioms about reality and work from them in making arguments. It wouldn't be until you stop playing the game of philosophy that you enter non-duality and ask questions like "Who is doing the killing?". Right now I am not in a higher consciousness state, but there have been times where I have felt that in my present moment experience morality literally doesn't exist. And from that perspective killing animals isn't wrong.

But lets philosophise about this anyway. From a non-solipsistic and your bog-standard empiricist view of the world, you reach the conclusion that animals with more complex nervous system experience more suffering than trees and insects ( through science and "empiricism") and you use the axiom that (more suffering)=(bad) to conclude that killing a cow/chicken is more wrong than killing a insect. But you're probably already aware of this point of view and are just questioning people's axioms about reality .

[eleveneleven]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

What's the link between the brain and subjective reality? If you change the brain you can alter and cease subjective reality. While there is no brain and thereby no subjective reality to alter or cease in plants.

How do you know that? How do you know that something needs a brain to have a conscious experience? Is it just because that's how you think you do it yourself? Aren't you just deciding whether something is conscious and can suffer based on how similar it is to you, then? Is it not possible that something can be conscious in a way that is totally different from you?

You have a bias there. Why the hell does something need a brain to have an experience? That's completely arbitrary.

I agree with @Joseph Maynor. Moralizing about the suffering of animals is a Stage Green trap. You identify with the animal and assume that its experiences are similar to yours and that they must suffer because they look similar to humans when they suffer, and they trigger those emotional buttons of compassion in you. At the same time, you assume that plants can't suffer or have a subjective experience because they don't show the same outward signs that animals do.

But these are just assumptions. They could totally be wrong. A tree or a network of trees could absolutely be conscious and we'd have no way of knowing because they are too different from us for us to realize how they do it. This is especially true of a subjective experience, which would be personal to the plant. You make way too many assumptions.

Personally, I think it's good to be vegan and to minimize the suffering of animals. But let's not pretend like we know for a fact that plants suffer less. We absolutely don't.

Edited October 28, 2018 by eleveneleven

[Max_V]

@Joseph Maynor 

I'd say the killing of animals for food is just unnecessary these days. Maybe back when civilisation wasn't what it is now there was no other choice since we had to survive. But, in this era there is not such a need. If you live in a first world country you have access to all the plant foods you need to thrive and survive.

So, if killing an animal causes pain and it is unnecessary, why continue doing it?

[Shin]

39 minutes ago, Max_V said:

@Joseph Maynor 

I'd say the killing of animals for food is just unnecessary these days. Maybe back when civilisation wasn't what it is now there was no other choice since we had to survive. But, in this era there is not such a need. If you live in a first world country you have access to all the plant foods you need to thrive and survive.

So, if killing an animal causes pain and it is unnecessary, why continue doing it?

 

Becouse ...

 

 

???

 

 

@Charlotte

What about Arttificial intelligence ? 

?

Edited October 28, 2018 by Shin

[Tony 845]

@Joseph Maynor I don't kill insects, animals or trees either? Only grass when "I" cut it ...

Edited October 28, 2018 by Tony 845
Grammar

[Charlotte]

@Shin isnt it a theory?@Outer I've never physically seen evolution, have you?

[Shin]

12 minutes ago, Charlotte said:

@Shin isnt it a theory?@Outer I've never physically seen evolution, have you?

What is a theory ?

AI ?

Maybe for now, but that's besides the point.

If AI were a thing, could we hurt them just because they aren't human ?

It's the same root cause, we can't know for sure if anything we destroy feels anything, even if it doesn't looks like it.

We can't feel for anything else than ourselves, and no matter the studies we do, it's still just a bunch of beliefs.

The only way to truly know would be to be the thing itself.

I even try not to «harm» inanimate objects now lol

[Charlotte]

@Shin Probably not.

12 minutes ago, Shin said:

We can't feel for anything else than ourselves

Do you truly believe this? 

13 minutes ago, Shin said:

I even try not to «harm» inanimate objects now

I don't understand. Aren't you still consuming animal products? 

[Shin]

5 minutes ago, Charlotte said:

@Shin Probably not.

Do you truly believe this? 

I don't understand. Aren't you still consuming animal products? 

Unless you're some mystical dude who can feel the pain and suffering of some other being directly,

Not just as mental projection in your mind, then imo you can't.

 

Already answered you three times about that Charlotte.

[pluto]

You will naturally attract the nourishment that resonates most with your vibrational frequency.

 

[Shin]

Do you actually realize there is no vegetarian/vegan burger in a McDonald/Burger King ?

It's kind of crazy if you think about it, so much loss in revenue (ok maybe not so much ?) !

[Robert]

@Joseph Maynor @Outer @Shin @Charlotte  @eleveneleven @lmfao There's nothing wrong with eating meat. Eating meat doesn't make you less aware or less enlightened in any way. Human beings are omnivores, meaning they are able to eat meat in order to get sufficient energy/nutrition. With that being said, the wise option for the survival of human beings would be to embrace the option of eating meat, hopefully in a way where the animals don't suffer at all.

And yes, slaughtering trees is a fucking disgusting thing to do, but it's a lot worse to slaughter animals such as pigs because pigs have more consciousness than trees. This is really a no-brainer. Pigs can feel it a lot more, so it is a lot worse.

Finally, meat doesn't make you less enlightened. Any human who claims that is either lying or deluding themself in some way. It's pretty much always the person's mindset about meat that causes it to mess up their spirituality. Unless you eat too much of it or you eat low quality meat, meat is fine for a human being.

We can eat meat, but more importantly we have to come together and end all slaughtering of living beings. It's not right!

Edited October 28, 2018 by Robert

[Robert]

28 minutes ago, Outer said:

"Slaughtering trees"

Trees are living beings. ?

[Nahm]

You could stop eating meat to experience the difference in mental clarity and energy.

You could take Reiki classes to see that anyone can feel anyone else’s energy, be it pain & suffering or joy.

You could take psychedelics and see that plants & trees are sentient. 

Direct experience is also more fun.

 

 

[now is forever]

@Outer how do you know they are not sentient? it is also not about morals. it is about respect.

well maybe respect is morality.

how long does it take until a tree notices you?

Edited October 29, 2018 by now is forever

[Robert]

11 hours ago, Outer said:

They are living, but they are not sentient.

Do you have proof of this or are you just making a hasty assumption?

11 hours ago, Outer said:

Do you think humans have moral value?

What do you mean "moral value?"

[Robert]

45 minutes ago, Outer said:

I have proof that animals are sentient due to the fact of the brain and nervous system, the burden is on you to prove that plants are sentient.

No, dude, the burden of proof is on you since you're the one making claims and saying that trees/plants aren't sentient. Lol

And I already know animals and humans are sentient, I agree with you on that.

47 minutes ago, Outer said:

Is there a proper and improper way to act towards humans according to you, subjectively?

I don't know, sorry.

[Joseph Maynor]

On 10/28/2018 at 8:16 AM, Robert said:

@Joseph Maynor @Outer @Shin @Charlotte  @eleveneleven @lmfao There's nothing wrong with eating meat. Eating meat doesn't make you less aware or less enlightened in any way. Human beings are omnivores, meaning they are able to eat meat in order to get sufficient energy/nutrition. With that being said, the wise option for the survival of human beings would be to embrace the option of eating meat, hopefully in a way where the animals don't suffer at all.

And yes, slaughtering trees is a fucking disgusting thing to do, but it's a lot worse to slaughter animals such as pigs because pigs have more consciousness than trees. This is really a no-brainer. Pigs can feel it a lot more, so it is a lot worse.

Finally, meat doesn't make you less enlightened. Any human who claims that is either lying or deluding themself in some way. It's pretty much always the person's mindset about meat that causes it to mess up their spirituality. Unless you eat too much of it or you eat low quality meat, meat is fine for a human being.

We can eat meat, but more importantly we have to come together and end all slaughtering of living beings. It's not right!

Maybe you would think differently about trees if we callously cut down all the ancient redwoods that are hundreds of years old.  But those trees are special right!  See?  Everything hinges on our bias which is totally full of shit because it is a bias.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muir_Woods_National_Monument

Edited October 29, 2018 by Joseph Maynor