Is not eating Meat crucial for Enlightenment?

[now is forever]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-trees-180968084/

well there is a guy in germany who wrote at least  one book about how sentient trees are.

and this one is also really nice:

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141111-plants-have-a-hidden-internet

in that sense they where really way ahed of the time. much higher developed intelligence than us. they even have insects and mammals and spiders and birds doing all the work for them.

too bad some of the mammals developed a separation machine.

you can’t winn against the tree.

https://www.ted.com/talks/suzanne_simard_how_trees_talk_to_each_other/up-next#t-810618

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by now is forever

[Zweistein]

On 28.10.2018 at 9:48 AM, Joseph Maynor said:

Does that make dying and death any less real for trees than it is for animals?  Sure you identify more with animals, but dying and death actually occurs in more than just animals.  I feel like I'm entering a Stage Green trap here and there is no reasoning about this.  This is one of those Stage Green moral triggers.  Stage Green just goes bananas when talking about the suffering of animals and there's no reasoning with them about it.  It's like criticizing God to the face of a religious Stage Blue person.  It's just not going to be received well, and they're not going to be open to discussing it.

 

@Joseph Maynor Your empathy with trees seems like even more of a stage green trap, doesn't it? But hey, it's lovely to see  

I think that many stage green vegetarians would actually consider eating wild animals that lived a happy life. Has anyone read Michael Pollan's "The omnivore's dilemma"? It's a very yellow book, looking from different perspectives & angles while connecting many dots. I'm just reading it again now while contemplating whether I should really become vegan or not. 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Maybe you would think differently about trees if we callously cut down all the ancient redwoods that are hundreds of years old.  But those trees are special right!  See?  Everything hinges on our bias which is totally full of shit because it is a bias.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muir_Woods_National_Monument

Stop putting words in my mouth. If you have a question, wait for me to answer. Don't answer for me.

And please explain to me how I'm being biased.

5 hours ago, Outer said:

Do you think trees/plants are sentient?

I don't know if they are.

[passerby]

 

just lol if your not a sun gazing breatharian doing 24/7 SDS

Edited October 29, 2018 by passerby

[Leo Gura]

Sentience is a distinction/duality.

Have you ever wondered if you are actually sentient?

[Jack River]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Sentience is a distinction/duality.

It is relative fosho. Presupposed distinction or preset by there own experience. 

 

[Shadowraix]

Eating meat doesn't prevent this kind of work, but you will likely not enjoy eating meat the further you get into this work.

You will realize that everything is you. Insects, animals, trees, grass, rocks etc etc etc

Any classification to say killing anything is right/wrong is arbitrary. Just act on your true desires.

As far as who can feel what, you are experiencing everything. You are only aware of a specific human experience, but that does not mean you are not experiencing it.

The separation between living and non-living things. Does this exist or is this an illusory idea I am creating?

 

[Shadowraix]

On 10/28/2018 at 11:14 AM, Outer said:

It's up to you to prove that plants are conscious.

Say one can't prove this.

Are you going to act as if they aren't conscious?

Not being able to prove it only leaves us at a maybe rather than a definite no.

[Shin]

2 hours ago, Outer said:

It's no until you prove otherwise.

No you're not rocks, trees, grass, because they aren't conscious.

if you really believe that you'll be stuck lol

[Shin]

6 minutes ago, Outer said:

That's fine. You're not a rock. Or a tree. Or grass. Or a mountain.

Doesn't matter.

The simple fact that you hold a belief so tightly that you refuse to entertain its opposite is closed mindedness.

You can't truly inquire anything as long as you're closed minded.

[Joseph Maynor]

For all the people who get sucked into being distracted by this kind of question -- how many will actually change their diet as a result of being exposed to this?  You can gossip all you want about this issue, but if you make no change to your actual diet, what's the true takeaway for you?  If you wanna pretend to be a do-gooder on this issue, then you don't get to eat any more meat ever again -- you're done.  First you prove that you can actually do that for at least 1 year -- then you come talk to us about it.  But see what people want is they want a cheap little hit of feeling self-righteous in the moment, but then they don't actually live it in their day to day.  People that live it aren't the people that squawk about it.  People that squawk about things are people that want to live it but don't and are playing a guilt game with themselves to try to live it sometime in the future.  Talk is so cheap, especially on an issue like this one where people seek to feel moral without actually earning it or proving it.  People play the role of being the white knight with animals -- often the same people I find -- but it's only to feel moral not to actually be moral.  There's a certain kind of person that is drawn to feel moral and they will take that anyway they can like a moth being drawn to a light source.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[non_nothing]

People are a complex operating machine. What happened for them can't be guarantee that'll do the same to you. Just because someone stop eating meat and solved his depression doesn't mean it is a cure for a depression. Human psyche is dumb. You can't really tell when and why will the depression or other stuff you might put will resolve. I say It is a COINCIDENCE. BIG coincidence. There would be millions of reasons that his depression is resolved at the moment he tried this new diet. TBH, I'm a vegetarian tho LOL. (Not kidding, this post is serious). What I'm trying to say is don't just setup wrong expectations on some diet or another for a goal. Setup valid expectations when you're starting doing something. You've lost this game already if you're starting to do it for some spiritual enlightenment. 

[Shin]

10 minutes ago, Outer said:

You don't give arguments, just saying it is close mindedness. You're not a rock.

 

 

Just stop being a fucking brat and open your self righteous/narcicisstic and arrogant mind.

You're not helping anyone by staying like this, not even yourself.

 

10 minutes ago, Outer said:

 

 

[Shin]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

I don't think I am a rock. You seem to believe I will be stuck with that belief yet you've not said why.

I said why ...

[Shadowraix]

4 hours ago, Outer said:

No you're not rocks, trees, grass, because they aren't conscious.

The separation between you and rocks, trees, grass etc is a self created boundary that doesn't exist. 

These things are a part of the whole that I am. I am you. I am Leo. I am the sky. I am God. Its all one.

Just because your awareness is only currently this body does not imply thats all you are.

Do the work and you'll become aware of this.

4 hours ago, Outer said:

It's no until you prove otherwise.

Thats an assumption on your part.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

We've found many creatures long thought to be extinct. Their existence is regardless of your belief. This is why the default position always goes to maybe.

[eleveneleven]

On 10/28/2018 at 8:14 AM, Outer said:

Because if you alter the brain, you alter the subjective reality. It's up to you to prove that plants are conscious.

Animals experience pain and emotions, as we know not only from first hand experience but from studying their physiology.

 

You completely ignore my point.

You cannot know what it's like to be something or someone--the subjective experience--from studying that thing's physiology. You cannot prove that animals are conscious. You cannot even prove that another human being besides yourself is conscious.

You know why? Because you cannot prove a subjective experience. No amount of investigation, concepts, or abstractions will tell you what it is like to be something. That is a subjective experience. To assume that animals are conscious and that plants are not is completely arbitrary. There is no physical thing that you can study that will tell you one is conscious and the other is not, without your making the huge assumption that things are only conscious if they are physically similar to you.

Since you don't know what it's like to be anything except yourself, how the hell do you know that you need a brain and nervous system to be conscious? It doesn't make any sense. You have nothing to compare it to, since you've never been anything that didn't have a brain, and you can't experience something else's consciousness from the outside in.

So if anything, it is just as much up to you to prove that animals are conscious as it is for me to prove that plants are--which neither of us can.

Quit being arrogant. You do not know what it is like to be a non-human animal and in fact you don't know what it's like to be anyone except yourself. There is no scientific mechanism you could use that would allow you to experience being anything other than yourself, either.

Probably the only reason you are so close-minded about what can and cannot be conscious is because it opens an inconvenient can of philosophical worms for you. Life is not so simple, though. Quit bullshitting yourself.

Edited October 30, 2018 by eleveneleven

[Flammable]

Coming back to the forum and seeing @Outer  and @Shin  arguing once again. Much love for all haha 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Flammable

[Shin]

9 minutes ago, Flammable said:

Coming back to the forum and seeing @Outer  and @Shin  arguing once again. Much love for all haha 

Did you notice my effort when I stopped at the 10th reply ?

You did right ? 

[Charlotte]

@Shin you know from direct experience that some people do not like to be given a mirror to look at themselves... ESPECIALLY from other.

Your literally wasting your finger typing energy. 

[Shin]

Just now, Charlotte said:

@Shin you know from direct experience that some people do not like to be given a mirror to look at themselves... ESPECIALLY from other.

Your literally wasting your finger typing energy. 

That's why I stopped