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Thinking about suicide and having thoughts of it are one thing, lots of people go through this, but aren't serious about doing it, which is a good thing. You don't sound serious about doing it, another good thing. Perhaps you should ask yourself what are the things you do like about being a live, and do more of those and dont worry about what it means to have some suicidal thoughts occasionally. If you are seriously considering and feel a lot of emotion to do so, then call a hotline or seek some help privately or with family, it can open up things.

@Nahm you're starting to see my point I guess. It has to do with my work here because it shows me the contradictions in what Leo and we are doing. If Leo is consistent with himself, he'll admit that the reason he wants to attain enlightenment is to get more energy ( strengthen his psychology) and connect to infinite intelligence so that he can achieve more in his life ( maybe not materialistic achievement) but some kind of achievement like being able to invent new technology or solve the world's unsolved mathematics problems. It's still a materialistic desire. It's contradictory to enlightenment. Because enlightenment means you simply live from moment to moment with no goal, no desire, no planning. I'm not saying enlightened people are lazy people but if you look at Osho's life in an honest way, you can clearly see the mentality like "go get a job or start a business, support yourself" never entered into his mind". He even said he would never get into business. He simply lived moment to moment his entire life. It's what laziness is according to common logic. But we know he was not a lazy man. He went on teaching and teaching. However, he had no planning at all. Just imagine what his life would be if no one fed him food unconditionally? no one bought his books? He'd just commit suicide because he wouldn't want to get a job. What we can say about that type of person? Again we'd just call him a useless human being. But that's what enlightenment is. About the juice: Do you mean I care about something we have no control over? Maybe, because we're not scientists. Just like the way a maths teacher probably knows the best way is to have his student take a pill that can make him smarter but because that method is not available yet so he needs to rely on a secondary method which is the student will solve more problems. But if the second method is actually useless what is the point of sticking to it? I myself have not found a solution yet.

karma's a ditch. I've been thinking a lot about karma lately. How sometimes, the most loving, helpful thing to do for a person is to leave them to their own devices. Reality will eventually slap them in the face, and it's their free will to go with or against the flow. And some people in this lifetime will continually go against the flow until the day they die. It makes no sense, but neither does Reality in general. The classic curmudgeon comes to mind. You know, the old fart that sits on his rocking chair holding a twelve gauge threatening kids to get off his lawn while the world around him gets bulldozed and un-dozed. The walls around his worldview are becoming brittle, and he will devote the rest of his life to rebuilding the walls in a Sisyphean struggle. I suppose it's noble, because good god, you've got to have some strong principles to go so deeply against the flow. And besides, what's the point in trying to change his mind? He is the legal suicide bomber, so completely entrenched in his ditch of beliefs that he wants to pull other people down, and nobody can pull him out. Karma's a bitch, but she has to be, in order to give the lessons that she needs to give. As Jed McKenna says, Reality can be a playful puppy... but when that puppy doesn't get proper attention, she can piss all over your carpet and rip your sofa to shreds. The reason I'm thinking about karma is because I am positively shocked at my level of acceptance towards the struggles of the people around me. The spiritual ego shut up almost completely. It's not angry at the parents or the clueless store clerks for being so unconscious, and it doesn't crusade for spirituality or personal growth. It's just sitting there in that silent corner of my psyche having a time out with no foreseeable end. I haven't been writing much lately either because there's so little to complain about. Life is miraculous and amazing and painful and uncomfortable and all the shades in between. And it's all good.

You haven't changed my mind. I believe people are being honest with the polls. I believe if people are truly suffering to a large degree they will not hide it, instead they will complain about it because they want to feel sorry for themselves. "And on some random poll they are going to be fully honest and disclose their true sentiments?" This wasn't one random pole. I read about 20 and then picked one that was closest to the averages that I saw. The suicide rate in the United States is definitely increasing. That I agree with.

So everyone is fully conscious of their levels of happiness and fulfillment within their lives? And on some random poll they are going to be fully honest and disclose their true sentiments? People try to hide their feelings and deny them. There is a spectrum of happiness and suffering, the two are not necessarily synonymous. One can be suffering some serious emotional pains but still very content and at ease in the grand scheme of their life. Meanwhile, someone can be super happy about their new car and hot girlfriend but a growing feeling in their core of meaningless and emptiness. Someone earlier explained this, the worst suffering is shutting yourself off from feeling because the pain is too much - this is what is happening largely throughout the world. Our modern society has people moving less and less and spending more time stagnant at work, in their commute, watching television, etc. and their bodies are becoming increasingly rigid and lacking of motility (i.e. energy and ability to feel and express emotions). If you look at the rates of depression, anxiety and suicide rates (and the corresponding BS pharmaceuticals prescribed) around the world it is increasing rapidly. It's like the pain inside gets worse and worse but your body literally does not allow you to experience it by contracting your musculature and inhibiting the flow of energy and emotions.

My goal is not necessarily to live as long as possible, but to be maximally healthy and able-bodied at any age, physically and mentally. I am also very optimistic that much new technology and ancient wisdom can prevent, or reverse diseases of aging. I'm not afraid of death itself, and the first world is becoming more accepting of compassionate suicide as an alternative to a slow and/or painful death. You've probably heard a recent news story of 104 year old man who went to the Netherlands to be euthanised, since he had declined so much he no longer enjoyed living. The best way to die would probably be in your sleep, but even if you have end-of-life care, you will be so high out of your mind on drugs you won't worry about anything.

I think in the eyes of God all is equal. My my perspective is more like the following video........ Not that there isn't necessarily value in people/animals. Inequality, not sure what that even means, if reality/being just is. Got to be some element to it, I think it's mostly political, thought it was interesting listening to the history of the Peloponnesian War that the Athenian Democrats complained about exacting tribute from smaller states, "thinking that because we are a democracy, that they are our equals." Funny part later in the book when many of the men were freaking out from a particular town(more like village in modern numbers) allied to Athens, under-siege by arrow fire, trying to commit suicide with the arrow heads. Before they were all killed, and the women and children sold into slavery and the town turned into a colony of Thebes, didn't mess around then. Hilarious that they made a fairly well, although not well enough put together argument beforehand. The clincher being yeah Thebes sold out Greece to the Persians, but you guys were offered the opportunity to remain neutral, maybe it would have made a difference, maybe not.

I am confused about how animals view the world. Leo says, "don't fix what isn't broken" referring to e.g your cat, that you don't have to teach them about enlightenment. However. I have read some stories about elephants carrying traumatic events for years after someone dies, or they get mistreated etc. Or even a dolphin who committed suicide by drowning himself after they had sex with a human and the human just left them. Heartbroken the Dolphin swam to the bottom of the sea. (If you want I can post sources) So how do you explain this? If one is enlightened, then why carry lifelong trauma? Or commit suicide after the deed?

@CreamCat good video. On a side note, Teal Swan is certainly somewhat interesting to me. I've only seen a couple of videos by her. Her suicide one was pretty cool. I don't mind her as a "new ager" compared to people like Ralph Smart.

@Gryner lol yes I had a similar experience, i was having constant spiritual experiences before i found actualized and the stuff on here just caused me psychosis, i didn't;t go to the hospital but i was going to see a therapist if i didn't get better. Except your feeling like god and fearless part, thats how I felt before but it felt amazing not like i was intentionally trying to kill myself for no reason lol, from this site i stated to believe i should commit suicide as soon as possible and that is enlightenment. which was 180 from the profound mystical experience life i was having before where every moment was like this profound dream i was having so idk, maybe he is just difficult to understand and is saying something in a way that we are having troublee understanding. but the way he says it makes it seem to me like he is saying that i should literally commit suicide right now and that is what everyone should do

in fact enlightenment seems anti-spiritual it sucks for me. i only care about spirituality aka my own individual energetic resonance at all costs, not some bullshit suicide.

@Leo Gura interesting. So what happens if you are convicted of murder. Sentenced to jail, life long. It'd be like a "game over" so what then? Do you keep being alive for the game to naturally end? Or do you commit suicide? (What would you do in this situation?) Secondly, I am just one of the characters of your game? Isn't it weird that every enlightened person sees the other person as not real? And you are just as not real as any other person? Hm. Don't think I'm ready for the truth yet.

How much does it shit in the woods? I think its a really good question, one as a 20 year spiritual practitioner have found myself blindly thinking suffering goes on more then it maybe does. I can see how this has formed a perhaps false idea of reality, and served as a reason to feel as though I have a solution to all this suffering (not to say the spiritual life and lessons can uplift or benefit humanity). Its also weighed on my heart in a belief that reality is a lot worse then maybe it actually. I mean if we are to take into account any use of happiness surveys that ask how much a person feels content for what ever reasons that feel they are content, or summarize how they feel during a question of if they are happy, who is to say thats not happy? From what I've read it seems like people stat being relatively happy/content 50-70%. Interesting though that this is across 100 or so countries (a really interesting side fact is all countries when asked what do they think is the average level of happiness of the general population, they answer 30-50% lower then reported). Its really easy to think everyone deep down is really just a mess and suffering, and perhaps it is this way, but the percentage of people that have psychological issues (anxiety, depression of all levels, bi-polar, suicide statistics, etc) It's maybe 20% of the population. Sure maybe people are "self" medicating via drugs, alcohol, and food, and what ever craving we can think of, but perhaps some of this is a projection onto a generalized whole from a spiritual slant. I mean I believe a lot of the people who get into spirituality and the ones that awakened to something greater, had a lot going on, perhaps more then the average joe, their experience of humanity may not be a actual reflection of the human condition. Im no expert, but if I had to guess the general okayness/not suffering/kinda content of the general population is 40-50%, 20-30% pretty happy (even if its not for reasons of self knowing, bliss, god recognition) and then a gradual gradation going down into the into unhappy/suffering levels. Still lots to improve, its just not what I think the people who are really suffering and seeking spirituality generally think. Again I'm talking about general feelings of ones life, not if there isn't impactful emotional moments or tragedies, I think these are more common and most people face stuff that is regarded as hardship, but I'm not sure if that makes "most" people not like their life

In the book truth vs falsehood (on leo's book list also a must read in my opinion) david hawkins talks about using muscle testing to determine truth from falsehood, you can also than pinpoint where on the universal scale of consciousness ( A scale from 1 to 1000 with the highest 10000 being enlightened avatars like the buddah, jesus christ etc, the lowest being around 10 the level of severe depression commonly followed by suicide) a person's energy is. I thought it would be interesting, to test a bunch of spiritual teachers on this scale. Anything below 200 is considered ultimately destructive (means your worse of being exposed to them to varying degrees) anything above 200 is seen as supportive of life and beneficial to all. Using testing around 70-80% of the worlds population is seen to be below 200 so it is uncommon to be over this. - Leo gura: Leo calibrated at 310 this is the level of willingness the life view is hopeful and god view is inspiring. This is a very good level for a teacher to be at it means they have overcome inner resistance and are willing to participate in life. This means actualized.org is a positive force on it's audience and generally beneficial to all who use it. -Byron Katie: calibrates at 565 the level of unconditional love, at this level love and compassion, people at this level feel near constant joy and the world is seen as an expression of love and divinity. This is the level to aspire to in a lifetime. Another interesting thing to note is the amount of people who drop down into pride ( around 180 level feeling of superiority over others) after making spiritual advances it's easy to think of yourself as special given the feedback from the outside world, which is a huge cause of a drop in consciousness for people, back to the level of pride. Below is a list of teachers with a note able drop. -Deepak Chopra - Deepak calibrates at 185 the level of pride. At this level it generally feels good and is socially encouraged, but people at pride are still vulnerable because a change in external conditions can drop them down to fear anger etc. Because of the calibration below 200 they are seen as someone to avoid. - Eckhart tolle- Eckhart calibrates at 265 the level of neutrality. At this level life view is generally neutral, a feeling of whatever happens ill be fine. The interesting thing is eckhart has dropped from 510 at the level of unconditional love, to 265. May possibly be attributed to the constant media presence/fame around him?

The mental self is an idea/ thought which arises within the field of consciousness (your true self). Killing the mental self (stilling the thoughts in mind) would result in simply being conscious of whatever remains. You create an experience of physicality from yourself (you are consciousness). Thought experience is also created from consciousness. Physical and mental experiences all arise from consciousness, they are made of the same stuff. You do not die physically because there was no physical you to begin with, it was just an idea. 'A suicide' would be the experience of the action of suicide taking place within consciousness. So yes, when you die mentally you realise there was no physical you to begin with so you simultaneously die 'physically'.

But leo (pun not intended), that cant be right. You are saying then that if I commit suicide physically then there is enlightenment. But you also say its the same as the mental aspect- so killing the mental self would result in physical death?

Sorry for this wall of text but it would mean alot to me if you read it. I cannot convey my situation in a simpler way than this. In short: Meditation have such a small effect on me im not sure there even is an effect, my spiritual life is so uneventful! - why is this and what should i do? My history with spiritual practice: Ive meditated a little/experimented the past 5 - 10 years The past year ive meditated 5 days a week, 20-50 min First i practiced chakra meditation (feeling energy flow through chakras), then moved onto som "tibetian buddhism" (watching the mind) and now went on a Vipassana retreat and done that the last year. Ive done a few psychedelic trips for spiritual growth. Ive read a few books and listened to lectures. Eat healthy and exercise regulty I´ve never had a small awakening experience or strong glimpse of non duality except on psychedelics. I hear people on this forum and elsewhere talk about experienceing the dark night or directly experienceing non duality, blizz or hearing voices etc. I´ve had nothing like that. "Just" small vibrations or warmth and some feeling of energy. For a long time i´ve tried maintaining a equanimous mind. Not seeking or rejecting any experience. My path is mine and i should not compare it to others. But to be honest I am doubting if im doing it right or if there is anything to meditation at all. It´s not like the worlds most contributing humans (writers, inventors, musicians or simply great people, great parents) are enlightened or even have a meditation practice. The mind/ego is great at justifying ones action in retroperspective. I know I do, I tell myself meditation is great because it´s now grown to be a part of my identity...which im trying to see is seperate from "me" and me doesnt exist. And im very open to this possebility...i just havenet had any experience that points to it. Even at my Vipassana retreat where I followed the schedule 90% meditating 10 hours for 10 days straight I didn´t get any noteworthy experience. Sure i became alot more aware of my body. Like when i drank coffe one day it felt like taking speed. But nothing non dual, nothing to hint that I don´t exist, that reality is infinite etc But it did make me more concsious. It did enable me to take life more "lightly" and at the same time make more out of it. It changed so many things in me but in such a subtle way that im not able to pinpoint one of them. And that´s mostly why I keep meditating, because it feels like it has an overall posetive impact on my life. And it does still hint at something beyond logic thinking, but its just a vauge hint. Also after a good meditation I feel great and it can be exciting. And sometimes boring and pointless. Overall in my life I have ups and downs. I have energy sometimes and tired sometimes....could this be an effect of meditation? I am what psychologist would label slightly bipolar and have a light ADD (i function ok in society). I tell myself meditation helps but im not sure to be honest. Again the effect of meditation on me is so subtle if it even existst. I have lived a very "happy" life here in secure Sweden with loving family and great friends. Many say meditation makes you deal with your shit on a uncounscious level. Maybe I simply don´t have alot of shit to deal with? I mean i have some shitty experiences....Like when my friend commited suicide or most women treats me badly and left me. But i´ve always had loving people around me to ease the pain. And if it would be the case that I don´t have alot of shit then would´t that make me progress faster? Maybe i have alot of shit im just in such a denial about it even unconsously, maybe its even deeper and more sublte than most other people because i really do think I have had a nice life. Im not sure what to do at this point Or maybe this frustration with lack of "progress" is the proof of progress? i just dont know. Maybe I should quit all practice for some months and see what happens. Or do the opposite. Maybe a heroic dose of pshycedelics. Maybe i am blessed with so little bad stuff happening to me? Maybe I should try another practice. But part of me believes it´s more important to pick one and stick with it, get deeper experience with one rather then a shallow experiences with lots of different practices. If you read this far or even partly, bless you Im open to hear any ideas!

Cant I make this facing less painful? I have read news about people committing suicide or becoming mentally crippled after meditation retreats, so I avoid extreme in meditation and facing fears. Sometimes I stop.

But during this phase some people commit suicide. This is depressive

so i've been thinking about suicide lately for the past couple of days and i believe on of the reasons is that i have the belief "i believe i will be happy when i die" so i did some work by byron katie and changed it to "i wont be happy when i die" now idk if its the belief its self but i got this feeling on my chest and its a weird sensation like a worry tightening sensation. not sure if its because its a change of believe that caused it. to change a belief you also need to change the emotion you attach it to. my question is it okay to have the belief "i wont be happy when i die" if it means you wont commit suicide or get a more neutral belief. also what happens when you change a belief? like do you get a sensation in the body or anything like that?

Absolutely, it is just mind tricks to escape the truth. Truth that you are the ego and the ego is necessary to survive in this world. So the ego creates this glse model of non duality and escapes the reality (feelings, emotions, thoughts) to cut itself from the society both physically and mentally. Then the ego comes back, followed by isolating again after few days and the circle keeps repeating until you are dead. Check the "serious mental pissues" thread where this guy committed suicide after seeing for 40 years, the guy realized that he wasted all this time and committed suicide.

@Thanatos13 You are correct to say that life is meaningless and everything that anyone does doesn't matter. As humans we like to feel the emotion of happy. We even live as wage slaves to do this. The most logical thing to do in life is to commit suicide since it virtually solves all of your problems now and in the future and you won't regret it since you won't be able to. But our emotions prevent us from doing this. I personally choose to live as happy as possible until I die. Yes, my happiness doesn't matter but it's what I prefer out of the options I was born with. Even me posting comments on this forum doesn't matter. The forum doesn't need me. The world doesn't need the forum. The universe doesn't need the world. etc

For me, the only true philosophers are the ones who start with the premise that there is no 'meaning'. This subject is explored by countless writers, however I think that it is worth reading 'Every cradle is a grave: rethinking the ethics of birth and suicide' by Sarah Perry. She discusses how meaning operates and its various illusions and mechanisms. The task of constructing personal meaning, knowing it is an illusion, is an interesting path.

I agree with @ajasatya and @RichardY You don't necessarily have to talk about suicide, but just your presence is enough.

Let's spice things up! * Death ≠ suicide in the context of this thread , by Death I mean Enlightenment AKA EGO DEATH Where would you like to die? Most people die randomly on a random day or they kill themselves at home without any depth to it. They end up in an overcrowded hospital and die with a number tag attached to their toe and then they are buried. No Depth whatsoever. Well here i suggest that we make our deaths more deep and that we actually enjoy the dying process & dying and our location and that we actually plan our deaths. This is what true masters do, they plan their deaths in advance and die in a chosen location and actually die in full bliss & peace. This can't be done in groups, this has to be something very personal, this is very intimate. One way to consciously die is to go deep into nature and die with 5-MeO-DMT. Let the image below inspire you. Can you feel the vibration of the entire forest go through you? Your last moments will be so magical that you will be crying at the depth of the beauty, you will physically merge with the entire fabric of reality and become the forest. The cold wind will blow at you as you are sitting in a deep meditative state, and at that moment you will fully surrender your ego and you will transcend reality and become God. There will no more seeking as you will be IT. Peace & Love will be eternal. The trees will become magical , the leaves falling, the wet muddy ground full of life, the sky covered with clouds forming a greenish tint, it is at that moment that you will realize that Reality was truly magical and that you toke it for granted by doing mundane tasks everyday just to survive. At that moment you will truly become alive and enlightenment will be realized. Here below is an illustration / stock photo of how the average person in a civilized country gets to experience death. Full of regrets, regulations & rules , doctor and nurses running around and overall fear, negativity. Your family, if you have one will all come and they will all be sad seeing you in such a state. Everyone will be crying out of fear, the love will not vibrate at the same level and you will die without experiencing God.