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Do enlightened ppl still think about why god created the world? (or about why there is world of appearances of nothingness)

@Monkey-man Enlightened ppl don't ask why because there is nothing to ask about. Everything is the absolute and the absolute doesn't exist. I know that's a total paradox. But that's the truth of it. There is no one to wonder why. There is no duality. There is no non-duality. There is no enlightenment. There is no God. There is no creation. There is no one being born. There is no world. There are no appearances. There is no nothingness. There is no void. Everything is the absolute and the absolute doesn't exist. Drop the logic that asks why and it all makes perfect sense. Nothing is.

@JustinS Re-AliSE That Seeking Is For IlluSion. And For-Getting It Is Interchanging The Vibrations With Truer Ones. True-er Vibrations Never Dis-ease This Being. False carries much Loaded Exaggerations In the Undercurrent Of THOUGHTS. So. HAVE SUPREME SUPERVISION. What does this MEAN you ask? Well, See without seeing, hear without hearing, be without being. Don't feel but feel, Don't think and don't know but Know your thoughts and Let them think. Find The one which brought It to Existence. Find The Whole beyond the Mote. Find Nothingness beyond Your Concept of Yourself. Attain YOU within YOU. And Know It without Knowing without awareness. See Fully = Seeing Seeing And you See What is Seeing? And You Are What??? Attain Yourself And go To Boundaries Beyond Boundaries. Then You Be-Come un-Becoming. WCRTY. TODIFJELSKD.

I think I get it. and it is probably the last layer to take off before absolute nothingness. but that's at a very advanced state. before you get there, you have to replace career, relationship, money, partying and that stuff with spirituality, seeking, meditating, self inquiry, journaling and such things. I don't think I'm at that point yet. and I think that's why Leo keeps saying that this stuff is such hard work. because many people jump off and 'stop seeking' too soon, when they're still stuck in a 'low consciousness' life

This little phrase jumps out at me because it implies something in light of everything else you said. Yes I want to be caring... I am care full, I do care, though I don't get the impression this is the sentiment you were saying it in. It felt like more of a warning, like I should beware of something and yes, I want to be aware, again if that's what you meant ..... although, again it doesn't appear you did mean that sentiment. There is no doom or devastation if our awareness of the absolute is merely conceptual or limited or veiled in perception, it just is. For my own experience living a fulfilled life, at peace and in joy is the point even if it is an illusion, I just want to enjoy my delusion! I don't need "truth" or "infinite absolute nothingness" or "enlightenment" or whatever attainment of some ultimate abstract to be fulfilled. Just being present, appreciating the moment, embracing life in it's simplest expression has way more effect of dissolving the suffering in my inner life and increasing the enjoyment of my whole experience. Whether it's limited and conceptual only matters is if those concepts and limitations are bringing me misery, if not, so what? I don't set up the conceptual belief that those conditions of limitation prevent my joy. Kitty aint go no time fo dat! Meow!

The very fact that you are alive and have a desire to survive, Leo made a topic about this. A banana has a different meaning to us than to a dolphin. The same as if a city was to be hit by a meteorite, depending on which city you live in your would derive a different meaning from the impact, even though the meteorites have not changed, they have just are hitting a different place and not wiping you out. You cannot escape meaning as a person. So if you look through he perspective of a person, or subjectively hierarchy of values exist, wether you like it or not. That is how we communicating right now. These very same things through the objective lens hierarchical values don't exist. They are both one in the same, or is it one and the same? I'm not sure, but they are the same thing. I don't see what you mean when you say humans assign meanings to things though, if we exist and existence is emptiness and you say value comes from existence then??It's kinda still leading to the same thing that we derive meaning from that which has no meaning, which is...a meaning! And if you look at it from the objective viewpoint, where all values are equal (closest thing i can describe to nothingness and it's not wrong is it? I mean the values don't exist but the data in which we interpret things do), no hierachies of value ie no meaning, you derive a meaning of meaninglessness from that which has no meaning. It still very much seems like a paradox to me. But fair, i do see what you mean about fairness and objectivity and a leap that i may be taking (i'm still not sure). It's all a lot to take in and i'm just trying to make sense of it. Appreciate you testing it out.

As far as I know death in non-duality is very simmilar to what atheists believe. I've seen it compared to deep sleep, when your whole ego is pulled away. So its basically eternal nothingness, pure conciousness. It might be that the conciousness, which is me, will deceive itself again and imagine itself to be a new human with an ego again. All this spiritual work I did is washed away again. I know it only sounds frightening because my ego wants me to survive, but still. As an enlightened being you may get a glimpse of the truth before you die and take on another body. Why? Why would my true self make me undergo a life of suffering again. Why would I deceive myself to be an animal whose life I think is nothing but pure unconcious suffering? Why would I want to experience myself being tortured to death. I thought of non dual death as waking up and thinking to myself "of course, I am god", but I think this is way to simple. If its more like a deep sleep or coma that idea really unsettles me for some reason. Why are spiritual teachers so chill about it, why would they be cool with the idea of being as an enlightened human and then going on to be an antelope who is eaten alive by a lion.

Hi pardon me for my rudeness , i haven't read all the replies ... Just wanted to address the first message by playdoh : Being Enlightened is like being 4 years old and realizing that everything is a playground I can tell you from my personal experience that i too struggled to understand how is it beneficial for me to be empty... Because the glimpses of the true thing i was having were deceiving me: I was walking for hours listening to trance music and having an experience of "no self"... i felt like i am reality itself in this moments. But now , from my direct experience i can tell you this much: Enlightenment is anything but empty. It is complete fullness of experience and it feels like whatever you are doing right now, is the meaning of life... I enjoy having sex as much as i enjoy pouring myself a cup of fresh coffee My process was gradual and that is why i cant relate to this feeling of dread you had but my guess is that if it happens "to fast" it might be a bit shocking . I think you don't have to push it if you don't feel like it... i was on for a month, then off for two and this cycle repeated itself. Nobody "needs" to become enlightened - the way i see it anyways - when you have had enough you have had enough... I strongly believe that every being that wants to . can and will become enlightened and the master can only shorten your struggle. I want to add a paragraph from a great zen book i am reading: Eastern wisdom - the treasure box , by Nissim Amon: "Pay attention and don't think about emptiness when contemplating the mind. Those of you who sit in meditation and fall into absolute emptiness will sink into black nothingness and space. just us outer space is full of real things the sun, the moon, the stars , planet earth, rivers and mountains , so to the mind contains real things. The mind and the world ; all is one and one is all " I agree that the ego is crucial for our survival at first... Because if kids were fully enlightened what is to stop them from putting their hand in the fire and realizing that this feeling is empty? you see the point? It dose protect us - at first but than it becomes a heavy burden. The way i see it: It is necessary to go full circle . Alan watts ones spoke to a buddhist and he tolled him: "When i knew nothing about buddhism , mountains were mountains and waters were waters. When i understood a little buddhism , mountains were no longer mountains and waters were no longer waters. But when i fully understood , mountains were again mountains and waters were waters." It depicts - as i see it - the process that takes place when someone is on the path but not quite there: It can be world shattering and very difficult to take in... but i assure you when (and not if ) you will get there mountains will be themselves and you will not feel "insecure" or vulnerable because thous are fleeting feelings that do not last. The closes i can describe an awake state to someone who is not fully there : The gap between your thoughts. And from what i recall thous were the most peaceful moments i had Good luck, good day and keep it real Daniel. p.s Sorry for my lengthy writing i was so exited to find this community So i wanted to answer my best. Leo we need more people like you !

@soul haha I giggled cute word play! I like the way you have shifted what "I" means. I warn tho, since it is in fact on-topic - i notice people seem to think that all is self means their current state of ego is everything there is. it isn't. transcention is, in a cute way, to extend the ego so that it is more encompassing the kitty doesn't cease to be real because it isn't the ego you are limited by. she sure exists too, and as long as you are trapped in duality, she remains true and not-you. have you ever been the kitty? how about every kitty? only then can you trully say you have been infinite. as long as you only accept that you are part of the infinite, and do not include [the kitty] and [you] and [you being the kitty] and [you remembering being the kitty but no longer being her] and [you not remembering having been the kitty despite having been so or perhaps having yet to been so or really time is just an illusion so both are true and false] and [you before you knew you were the kitty]....... and who knows maybe the kitty can do all these things too so if she can you gotta do those as well! But sure as hell you gotta go be the kitty without ever having been not-her nor having ever again been not-her, just been the kitty and not anything else beyond that. so unless you have done all that, you can never actually truthfully say you have been the kitty. and as such you can never truthfully say you have been the absolute. And so in this way, you are always locked in ego, you will never leave it. you are always locked in duality, and will never leave it. even if you do somehow manage to be the kitty in all those ways and then some, don't stop there, because you gotta then go do that for all the kitties as well, all ants and all humans and all of all individuals, and all atoms and waves and gluons and particles and quantum states, and all concepts too. and especially the ones you never came up with yet, as well as been all of the nothingness to counterbalance all of these, and every false belief as well. And did I mention all of existence (and non-existence and outside-the-box-of-existence-and-non-existence) we can never fathom: AKA all of that what we can fathom can fathom also can never fathom? Without being all of that, and in all the various dimensions of being that that I mentioned about the cat plus some.... without all that you will only have glimpses of something awe-inspiring, some thing that you claim to be the infinite, the absolute, god - but that is just a belief upon its ending, even if it is true in the moment of it. its ending is its death for you and you return to your brittle ego. and unless you're having that "glimpse" right now you can't say you're in it truthfully - just because you are the absolute and the absolute is you don't mean the same thing as you accomplishing that level of consciousness - only that level of belief! And even if you manage to be "in" that existence of the absolute -"in" as in a conclusive "within" and not the limited within that is duality aka ego. Even being that conclusive absolute, but taking the action to state you collapse to be limited ego and not unlimited absolute. By having this conversation we prove to be finite dual ego, and by taking the action to not partake in the conversation we in fact do the same regardless! this is the nature of duality and nonduality to be perfectly frank. so be careful. You can never "be" the absolute in its wholesomeness of it - you can only be in its image.

@playdoh Is it helpful to you to consider that your brain is made of atoms, which are empty nothingness appearing as something?

@playdoh brains don’t exist... A “brain” is a concept. “Thoughts” is a concept. “Concept” is a concept. He’s trying to show you the importance of direct experience. See you’ve fallen into the trap of believing in a concept, rather than seeing through your direct experience. We all have don’t worry, you’re not alone. You can’t really put into words what he’s trying to tell you because every word is just another concept. If you look for yourself, right now, in this moment, try to see where your thoughts come from and watch them appear out of thin air and disappear back into nothingness.

@Outer As long as it is is not exclusive, dichotomous identification as something, and it's just an individual expression for the sake of this relational experience, it doesn't seem problematic. The so-called Self is another name for the nameless nothingness (notwithstanding that too is another name), and as such it is neither self nor no-self. Just an individual expression of All that is.

Solipsism is pointing towards truth, but is in itself false. I understand that when you have a non-dual experience than yes, you could say solipsism is true, but then there is nobody to say that in the first place. And when you want to argue about solipsism from your everyday ego awareness, there is no point to it. There is only that which you experience. And if your experience tells you that other people exist, than there are, and if you stop believing it than they stop to exist. It is all different degrees of self-deception. How else could you experience anything other than nothingness? I found Rupert Spiras video to be pretty good. You have basically just identified with one line on a picture, looking at other lines and not seeing the whole picture. You create the world you want to believe in. The magic trick is that you forgot you did it and how you did it.

Alright, so basically my question is - what is the point of attaining it? And this is a naive question I'm very aware, but let me elaborate a bit before I get the holier than thou flood. As I'm not opposing Enlightenment, rather inquiring about the end-game. And I don't mean this as 'I am now enlightened, therefore the work is done' I simply mean the ultimate end-game. Sure, I can get behind the idea of extensive free will, the understanding of truth/mysticism/reality with clarity, and then some(Sure I'm giving shallow examples to relay my point). However, is it then simply the goal to spread Enlightenment as far as possible after that point? To help others come closer with the truth as well? and I fully understand I'm essentially asking to explain this to me in a 'materialist' paradigm, but bear with me here. Sure, let's say 200+ years down the line we don't eradicate ourselves, the planet doesn't meet a catastrophic end and we even advance quite a bit in our technological advances by then. But suddenly - everyone has attained Enlightenment! What then? - And granted this may be very naive to assume that will happen within that time, or even at all - or more so to even ask this next: But then what? Where do our goals shift at that point? It almost appears as if we need that division, just as non-duality needs duality in a twisted sense. And don't take this the wrong way either, when I look around and see nature - it certainly is magical, and seeing such systems even as minuscule as ant-hills, schools of fish and other large-systems work in unison to the point of all reality working in unison- it's absolutely astounding and inspiring and even leaves me in awe wondering where we would be with that type of unification. But.. Do we simply disappear into the nothingness from whence we came? Do we set then our sights even higher with less destructive standards? Do we just simply exist at that point? I feel that maybe Enlightenment may not be the goal here, and sure I've got money on this being the ego really twisting my perception around on this one. But won't we reach the absolute truth after we're dead anyways - therefore to put everything else aside for the absolute truth seems redundant, no? Or is reality SO cyclic that the only path is a form of 'reincarnation' - meaning that we are simply attempting to hand down these methods of teachings to the next 'us' to reach some form of higher evolutionary state of consciousness and potentially transcend this 'dimension' altogether? I really don't expect a correct answer, nor do I think 99% if not 100% of respondents will even get close - as this is simply just inquiry on the topic, I'm curious as to some of you might perceive it as.

Ego creates an identity from our experience, this identity can be as separate or unified as we allow it to be and we intend it to be. If we cease to believe in the identity the ego has created previously and instead identify with another that may be altogether different than what was identified with before it is through our 'belief' that this agreement with the identity happens. Even identifying with an infinite absolute nothingness saying we don't exist and calling everything else in life an illusion, a deception and false is done through belief. The ego will eventually identify with whatever we believe in no matter the idea or concept by calling it 'truth' and call everything it's doesn't as 'false' to justify the identification. In experience we can transcend it all through awareness but as long as we have a body that possesses a brain which produces mind the ego collects that experience into identity....even if it is one of awareness transcending it all.

@blazed Your body also hates Truth The weed made you go deep precisely because you came into it with a totally open mind, free of preconceptions. That's the ideal state to be in: Beginner's Mind! Unfortunately you balked at Nothingness. God is a frightening thing to behold, especially to a 12 year old

You responded because I posted I have built this theory simply by reacting to all of you as you all react to all the stimuli around you. You could not have responded if I never began the topic. I am controlling you more than you are controlling me and vice versa. It's the chicken and the egg problem again only concerning free will. The nothingness idea of many seekers is the same thing. You need the facts of science to prove the nothingness theory, but then nothing exists so how could the verifiable facts exists in the first place. There always has to be something first and the whole "don't think about it" is meant to be ironic? the topic is flat out saying we cannot chose what to think. If there is no free will then I have no possibility of choosing to care or not.

@DocHoliday ??? These words absolute nothingness words are used a lot on this forum huh. Anyway, thought is the root of fragmentation. Thought is a movement and so time is a movement. What I have been in the past, how I am now in the present, and what I want to be in the future. Thought, the me, and fragmentation are the same movement, which is part of time. This is a movement of psychological time. This movement of time serves as a function. But psychologically this movement has no place, and in fact is the root of conflict.

@Faceless Fragmentation of what? The ego, or the self? This would have to mean that when full integration, contrary to fragmentation, has taken place time would no longer be a manifestation?! I mean sure, when you completely re-integrate into absolute nothingness after death, then time most certainly isn't an issue any longer (seems like there's a pun), but as long as we aren't dead "physically", time does remain relevant and "important" to some degree.

"God" is all that always is, and that which is not, is duality and non duality itself, it is everythig and nothing. It's all that I mentioned until now but at the same time not, because it is indescribable, you can only be it, if you really want to "know" it. You are merely nothingness, but yet, you can take a form, you can manifest yourself. It is mindblowing. It is all a miracle, that's how I feel whenever I approach "God". "What does it do to be instantly defined as god?" People define it as "god", because this is the word which expresses omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience.

Any thoughts on this? I usually hate celebrities coming into politics, but if she decides to go for it she could be maybe the first president to know about enligthenment, and maybe the first president who meditates. I wonder what plans God/mr. nothingness has for us in the next decade

Many people visit psychotherapist complaining about emptiness, nothingness and etc. Is it the same? Were they facing the Truth but did not know it and were terrified? When I was 14 years old, I got a big emptiness, meaninglessness, nothingness inside. I was terrified. I was a watcher. Years passed like this. Then I made my brain busy with school and etc. Do we understand reality by mind? Do we get enlightened by means of mind? When I meditate how do I decide to focus on breath - by mind? No? Can a schizophrenic person get enlightened? What about dumb people? What about people who were born deaf and blind? What can they focus on to be aware of reality? Sounds frightening.

That was very good.. I actually missed this post yesterday.. But I wrote a similar one in Quora regarding Sadhguru, just yesterday It was an answer to the question Is Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev trying to convert Shiva Purana to science? Why does he insist that the fantasy stories in Shiva Purana and other mythological stories are based on science? This question was asked regarding a particular post in Isha blog: http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/yoga-meditation/history-of-yoga/the-bhrigu-samhita-predicting-humanitys-future/ Here is what I wrote: Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev is very clever and extremely creative. Since I have already written a lot about him before in Quora, I will write this answer in a humorous way. Let alone Shiva Purana, he can link the story of Genesis from Bible to yogic culture and interpret it in yogic way if he wants to do that. So the following narration that you will be reading is just imaginary. (By the way, the story of Genesis indeed has a metaphoric interpretation to show how a human being is born with pure innocence, how he is fallen in the process of growth and how he restores the lost innocence and nature. That is a totally different interpretation) Let us assume for a moment that someone asks him a question ‘Is there a scientific and esoteric meaning to the story of Genesis in Bible? Is it in anyway related to yogic culture?”. And let us also assume that he has decided to give it a yogic meaning for some reason. Here is how Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev will probably answer that question: “ See… When they say God created the world in 7 days, it doesn’t mean that there was an old man with beard sitting up there and decided to create the world one day. The story has a huge science behind it. It is a simple story that has tremendous wisdom of yogic science embedded in it and preserved in certain way. Only if you enhance your perception in certain way, you can get the story. Otherwise you will just dismiss it as simple myth. First of all, you must understand that any new blossoming or an activity of creation always happens in 7 installments. Yogic culture has always known this. For example, we talk about 7 chakras. Reaching the Sahasrar, the 7th chakra involves a step by step process which happens in 7 stages. You behave in certain way when your energy is at mooladhara. You behave and experience the world in different way when your energy moves to Svadhistana. So in a sense, these 7 stages of evolution in the spiritual path is like a miniature version of the process of creation itself. When it is said that God created the world in 7 days, you must understand that the process of creation happened in 7 discrete stages, starting from absolute nothingness to the complete physical manifestation of the external world. Today, even modern science says that human evolution happened in 7 stages. Do you people know this? no? ok…(laughs)..Our human race evolved from Homo Habilis and it took exactly seven stages before we could become Homo Sapiens that we are today. If you understand this simple concept, you can understand the whole creation, simply by enhancing your perception. Our yogic culture has always known this but only now modern science is getting it. Now we have a huge statue of Adiyogi here. Do you know why there were saptarishis? Why not 8 or 9? It is because he initiated these 7 sages in 7 different ways, so that they can spread the science of Yoga in 7 different dimensions. Also, the process of creation itself began on a full moon day. Now don’t ask me ‘Sadhguru, how was there a moon before the process of creation itself’… (laughs).. The significance of full moon day does not come from the moon. It is actually the opposite. Because of the tremendous possibilities and high frequency vibrations that is present in a certain day, the moon appears as full moon for us. This happens once in every 15 earth days. It is just a coincidence that a moon is revolving around us, and because of the influence of high vibrations present on that certain period of time, the moon appears as full moon. That is why we have the dome of Dhyanalinga open until midnight during full moon days, because I want everyone to make use of this possibility. The story of Genesis says God rested on the seventh day. This is also symbolic but with a totally different meaning. Generally the 7th and 8th day in a lunar cycle is not good for doing any work, especially when you start something new. The energies are in certain way that it is not conducive for any new work. That is why even today in India people say you must not start anything new on Ashtami, the 8th day. It is better that if you give everything a rest on the 7th and the 8th day and it is better to avoid starting anything new. But these days everything has changed. In the West they think that 7th day means Sunday. No, it is not so. Generally, I don’t talk about these things because If I go on talking about things which are not in your experience, you cannot understand it. Isn’t it? Isn’t it so? Yes or no? Can you understand anything that is not in your experience? But don’t believe in all these things just because I say it. But don’t disbelieve me either.. Because, then you are closing all the doorways to know. “ Not just Shiva Purana, if you want any mythological story to make sense, all he has to tell you is that the characters of mythological stories were all yogis who could manipulate their energies in a ‘certain way’ (it is always a ‘certain’ way) for ‘certain’ things to happen. You just need to enhance your perception to understand it!

Enlightenment has no end. One thinking they have reached it is just another realisation along an infinite plumbline. Our separate identities are very strong. So strong that I think only a few people are 100% free of self, to the point that they could be hung drawn and quartered alive and feel no pain. So, some identification will remain. I find it's a mixture of both of those things you mentioned in the OP. There will be cliff-like falls where identity is torn away from you. You look around and suddenly realise there is no self, nothing outside of self, your true nature is God but you've disguised this, etc. There will be gradual sliding and falling away. You'll realise that the identity has fallen away, but not dramatically. Slowly it has slipped away, like ice melting overnight, invisibly while you sleep. But this is along a never ending downward, outward, inward plummet to God, nothingness, empty source. Imagine a never ending ski slope. You never reach the end because the end doesn't exist. You are on the never ending ski slope.

No, not after true liberation. A man is born into the ego, it is only when he self-inquire and meditate that a doorway is opened, the doorway to his own spirit. The journey is long and full of supernatural phenoma, he literally dies and is reborn, then finally is he liberated (Moksha, enlightenment). He becomes emptiness and nothingness, all identification dies. That's the hero's journey for all saints and prophets.