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  1. This is not true, animal suffering firstly is far more prolonged in say something like factory farms. But in cultures like China, it is not only that they do not care about causing suffering to animals, people who believe in for example chinese medicine, actively seek to inflict as much pain as possible to animals before consuming them, because it is believed to be healthy and benefitial. We are talking about skinning animals alive, letting them suffer like that for days and then cooking them alive. And we are not just talking about a few cases here, we are talking about millions of animals yearly. I am saying that you are biased towards human, and that you are not genuinely looking for suffering. Would you rather experience the suffering of the animals that are being tortured in China, or even in factory farms, or would you rather experience the suffering of the few humans who get tortured in mexico? These things are not proportional, yet your attention very much is on the humans, because of your bias. However, there is an aspect even deeper here. You think the suffering on this planet is all the suffering that exists. But the reality is, even if you remove all suffering from this planet, there will still be infinite suffering, of infinite beings. And you created all of it. And not only did you create it, you said to yourself that you will experience it all, for eternity. That's what it means to be selfless.
  2. If you are God, don't be worried about a few people in Mexico. Right now we are torturing billions of beings every year, in a systematic way that you probably have no issue contributing to, which within a few years causes more suffering than all humans who ever lived experienced combined. And not only that, simply look at nature. Beings get eaten alive all the time, trillions of them. The fact that you are focusing on Mexico is showing that you are still very much human, and very much biased towards your own identity, if your concern is that you will suffer.
  3. It seems like my intuition was correct, Mr Girl hates Dr. K and basically thinks he is doing the opposite of what he is doing:
  4. I think precisely because Mr Girl does not compromise is actually what communicates something really important. I don't think he is convincing the maximum amount of people, though I think he is showing those who are ready a very particular aspect that if he did compromise would maybe not be communicated as effectively. It's precisely that they resist him so much that demonstrates the point of what he is trying to communicate. He didn't go into the conversation trying to convince people of anything, he isn't trying to get a point across. His point is that he is authentically self-expressing. And that is the point. Everyone who is ready to get it, gets it. Everyone else could not possibly get it. If he "convinces" them, he would be doing what he is trying people to show not to do. There has to be the "Aha" moment, and it cannot happen if there is manipulation going on. It's a meta communication so to speak. He could not possibly communicate what is he communicating if he wasn't embodying it. The embodiment is the point. And that means being authentic, without compromise, without an attempt to manipulate for the sake of convincing others. See, the whole idea of "We must communicate effectively to convince as many people as possible!", is a Tier 1 solution. It is not solving the actual problem. It is treating the symptom, and actually making some symptoms worse. The actual solution is a quantum leap, it is not playing games, it's not changing positions. I would have not seen what I see now if he had tried to be "convincing" and "more palatable".
  5. Yes Dr. K is also great at this, although I think it's not quite the same thing. I'd have to think about it some, but in the thread about vaush vs mrgirl you can see my thoughts on why I thought Mr Girl was revealing something really important. I didn't really see it at first either, I even said so in the thread, but then I watched more of him and thought about it more and it really crystalized something in me that has been kind of growing over the past few years. Some dynamics really became very clear to me in myself.
  6. Everyone who can needs to be the bridge between stage orange and green. I think Destiny is doing a good job at this, he is basically pulling people towards the center and bridging a gap that other people are not willing to. The way I see it is that we had a strong pull into green, so much so that there is too big of a disconnect between those people and those who were left behind on the spiral. Social media makes this 10x worse, aswell as leading to people evolving through the spiral without integrating lower stages, therefore creating shadows. We have a thread on Vaush discussing something with Mr Girl. I think we really need to get away from what Vaush is doing, and really start to adopt Mr Girls way of communication, minus the provocateur stuff.
  7. Like I said I just don't think you are actually addressing the symptoms, rather you are throwing more fuel into the fire. And it's not that you are approaching this from a conspiratorial angle, but that is what you will look like to the people whose perspective you are invalidating. I think I made my position clear. I think there is no fascist threat, and if it is implicit, it will be so for both the left and the right, at which point we are really just talking about polarization and radicalization. I think talking about all of this as if there was a fascist uprising is doing more harm to the conversation than if you focused your efforts on other issues. Right now, the doctor is making the symptoms worse, the patient is about to enter cardiac arrest because of the incompentency of the medical personnel.
  8. I completely disagree with this. I don't think fascism is a threat whatsoever, the only way it will become a threat, on both the left and the right, will be due to division. There is alot of "fascism" implicit in popular left wing thought to, just give a listen to Vaush and people like him. This has nothing to do with people being secretly manipulated by some small group of genius fascist, this is a result of the social dynamics playing out at this current moment. No "calling out" fascism, or identifying it, or whatever you want to do about it, will do anything. Most of it is a complete waste of ressources and time, and much of it just makes the problem worse because you just sound like a conspiracy nut job from the point of view of a right wing individual. I think the issue here is our larger cultural context, and I think it is delusional to think that any of this has to do with fascism whatsoever. Fascism is a symptom, not a cause, and even if you remove and forbid all of fascistic thought, there will be some other dysfunctional narrative and ideology that will take root.
  9. The issue isn't political scientists having trouble identifying fascism, but the public identifying fascism. The reason why calling out fascism has become unproductive, and completely irrelevant, is because people have misused this dynamic. Why do we feel it is so important to identify fascism? Because fascism is extremely harmful. Most people don't use it that way, most progressives identify things as fascistic because they want to condemn it, rather than the other way around. By having normalized calling everything fascist, the word has been rendered meaningless colloquially. It holds no "force", you cannot enforce social norms this way anymore because the only people who will take you seriously are progressives, who are not the people you seek to change, Most people just roll their eyes if you use that word, and it's only going to get worse. I know people who are stage orange trump supporters, and all of them don't give two shits about whether you tell them they are fascist, because they think you are completely insane. Because sadly the progressives are just going completely overboard with this. It creates the opposite reaction, where people start to think that the fascists might be right because of the, from their POV, insane progressives who will call anything fascism. You are making an enemy out of half the nation, and you are literally uniting them. You are just feeding the monster. People are not fascists, they have been lied to. If it was the case that the election was stolen, it is actually the current government that is fascistic, and it would be completely justified from a point of view of upholding democracy to use violence to protect your constitutions from corruption. That is literally anti-fascist. It makes no sense to call these people fascists. They are delusional, but just because they are willing to use force to protect democracy, from their point of view, does not mean they are fascists. Fascists don't care about elections. So either way you are misusing the term. The amount of actual fascists is negligable and a complete non-issue. You have a social responsibility to contribute to social harmony, which you are not. None of your Spiel is working. You can't use shaming on half of american. Using shame on stage orange individuals is just silly, they don't give a shit about your shaming tactics. They are spitting in your face, and infact they will hate you even more for wanting to shame them for what they belief. There is no fascist threat, that's just delusional. Isn't it funny how both sides call each other fascists? You both live in the same delusional paranoia, and you are literally just making it worse and worse. The real threat here is division between groups of people with opposing viewpoints. You lost the ability to communicate, you lost the ability to listen to each other. Your mind is clouded by fear and paranoia, and the only tool you have is say "THIS IS BAD, REMOVE IT FROM SOCIETY!". Good luck with that.
  10. No, that's not the benefit. That's what you think the benefit is. I don't believe that benefit is real whatsoever. You are not calling out fascism when you are calling half of america fascists. And that's how trump supports feel like. They are being demonized, people say they are evil. If you get called a fascist, who do you think will come knocking on the door and invite you to join their club? I don't think you are doing this without dehumanizing anything. I don't think there was a need to call out fascism, I think you created all of this by calling out fascism where there was not fascism. You have manifested your own fears into reality. And you continue playing the same game, seeing no results whatsoever, and making it worse. I just have no faith in the solution you are proposing, and I do not think that focusing on that will solve any of these issues whatsoever. You are playing whac-a-mole. Instead of calling out fascism, and achieving literally nothing because nobody even knows what fascism means anymore, and nobody really takes you seriously when you call them a fascist, you could work on this from a higher tier perspective, and see how you can stop contributing to division, and instead work on resolving it. Your shame and fear tactics do not work in my opinion.
  11. It's a social dynamic. People don't really believe anything anymore, they are just conforming to whatever their social group wants them to conform to. Because conspiracy theorists are in an opposing social group, you really, really don't want to be identified as a conspiracy theorist. If you believe in a conspiracy theory, you will be one of them, and your social group will ostracize you. The same dynamics play out with the conspiracy theorists. If you believe anything the media tells you, you are a soyboy cuck sheep who is a slave liberal pedophile supporter.
  12. You call all of them fascists already, so what's the difference? If you demonize normal people and call them nazi's, who do you think benefits most from that? You are literally having the opposite effect of what you seek to achieve through the demonization.
  13. The reason why you call him a incorrigible monster is the same reason he supports Trump and is an idiot. You two actually have a lot in common. Maybe you should be friends.
  14. I will tie this in with societal dynamics, and why yellow recognizes the true importance of freedom of expression. We all carry selfishness and evil in us, we all have unjustifiable biases, we all have hatred, fear and bigotry within us. The issue when you limit the free expression of individuals is that you give individuals only few options to handle these aspects within themselves. A progressive person who is hateful, and is told that hatred is unjustifable, has basically three options to deal with it: The progressive can repress their hatred, internalize it and ignore that it exists. The progressive can pretend that they are not hateful, that what they are doing is just a natural extention of ethics: "I don't hate nazi's, I just punch them because that's what we need to do!" The progressive can justify his hatred. "Yes I hate nazi's, and here is why you should hate them too, and if you don't hate them like I do, you are evil!" The fundamental issue here is that the progressive wants to tell themselves they are fundamentally different from the people they criticize. They could not possibly be racist. So when they do feel hatred towards White People, they will tell themselves that actually, that hatred is no hatred at all, or that that hatred is actually good. Because the progressive cannot allow himself to be flawed, he cannot admit to himself that he is just a racist. So of course he has to explain to you why it's okay, why it's good to be racist towards white people. Why it's a virtue, not a flaw, because there is no way he is flawed. If he was flawed, he would be a bigot. And because he knows how much he hates bigots, he could not possibly admit to himself that he himself is one too. Because we are so sensitive to evil, every evil in every person must be justified, and turned into good. That actually, hatred towards men is good. That actually hatred towards immigrants is good. That it's not even hatred, that it's just virtue. Because if it wasn't good, then I should be the one who should be cancelled, because I think bigots should be canceld. I should be ostracized, because I think people like that should be ostracized. This is a regression to stage blue. We are not allowed, we should be ashamed. And our evil, our selfishness, could not possibly be anything put the Will of the Ideology, the Will of God. A lot of people who once were stage blue and progress up the spiral, they know how much they can be flawed. They know how evil they can be. But today, if you grow up without stage blue, you never went through that. You don't even know you can be racist. You don't know that when you hate white people, that's racism, and that you are a racist like any other racist. And because you cannot admit this to even yourself, you cannot ever resolve it. The fundamental issue is not that people are racist towards White People. That's not really an issue. The issue is that people are lying to themselves, and they lie so much that to get out of the lie, to put off the mask, means they have to face the very hatred they have towards the world. They have to look in the mirror and see the racist, the trump supported, the bigot, the cancelworthy, punchable nazi. That's what they are, they just express their hatred in different ways. This means if we do not allow society to self-express, to be authentic, then we cannot ever address any authentic hatred. And because society will be under such survival pressure, because everyone who is flawed is basically an outcast, individuals will have to repress and recontextualized their hatred. Everyone still feels the hatred, they have it growing inside of them. And because society as such demonizes that hatred, all it takes for someone to convince that person to come to the dark side is to tell them. "Here, join us. Here you are allowed to hate, here you can hate as much as you want. Here, hatred is Good. Join us to fight the Nazi's, join us to fight the Marxists, join us and let your hatred flow through you. You can hate White People, you can hate Black people. Whatever you will hate, here I have a group of people who will let you express yourself, finally, for the first time, you can be yourself." This is the consequence of repression. You cannot hide from the little Hitler inside you, he will hate, unless you face him and admit to yourself that you are him. If nobody is allowed to be flawed, there is no other choice but to turn the flaws into virtues. If we punish the selfish, because we all are selfish, we will start to call the selfish the Good. And that's when true evil can take place. We have to remember that we are all humans. And humans are terribly flawed and selfish. You and me, we are flawed and selfish. And we need to accept that, because the alternative means that we will be stuck with our flaws and selfishness. The difference between me and Hitler is marginal, and circumstantial.
  15. So, what I have learned myself from watching all these discussion is that being really mindful of my goal within a conversation is essential. I have noticed that a lot of stage green people seem to be seeking consensus. They have difficulty accepting conflict, disagreement, which I sometimes have issues with too so it is important to watch out for. To approach is a conversation from the perspective of just clarifying why one beliefs what one does, without having the need to convince the other, or change his mind, is really useful. Often we only ask why someone beliefs what they do so we can debunk them better, or so we can politely tell them why they are wrong. Instead, we can focus on simply reacting to it by stating our opinion on it. So, in that sense the conversation is very focused on oneself. I get a sense that for green this can be infuriating especially with topics they feel strongly about. For green, it's "This is JUST your opinion", for yellow it's "Aha, this is my opinion, interesting." Yellow is focused on authentic self-understanding. Not to belief something because one ought to belief it, but really figuring out what one actually does belief and why. Green will say "I should not belief this", and when it does belief something it will post-hoc rationalize why it believes what it does. Yellow is more focused on what is actually believed and the authentic reasons why ones believes it. When Yellow says "I don't like this, because that's just how I feel about it", Green will say "But that's invalid, you can't just not like this because you feel like it, you are being evil!", which implies that green will lie to itself to uphold a certain self-image. "I am not this, I am not that!", independent of whether or not they are this and that. That is the essence of bias and self-deception, and the reason why green cannot fix certain issues. It requires to be authentic to oneself, about oneself, to actually be even able to identify that which one is repressing for the sake of self-image. So yellow is authentic not because they just want to be authentic, they are authentic because they can see this dynamic clearly within themselves. In the past year or two I have actually been experiencing something similar. Where I will act unconsciously, being kind of conscious of it, instead of repressing myself, so I can see what I am truly like. Previously I was all about "But a conscious person doesn't do that, a stage yellow person doesn't do that!", and now I am more like "Well, I don't care what a stage yellow person would or wouldn't do, I am what I am, everything else is a lie.". So I can sometimes see how I am causing harm, and I will still do it because otherwise I would have to lie to myself, very similar to what Mr Girl is often referring to when he says he won't call a trans person a certain pronoun. The recognition of ones own bias. To not be controlled and blinded by it, but to see it clearly for what it is. And to see it, sometimes we must live it out, so we can truly see what we are like. An example in myself is that I know I might kill someone if they tortured an animal. Previously I would say to myself "Well but I should be the more conscious person and not kill them because that's unconscious and unloving", now I am more like "Ye I might kill that person because I know myself well enough that I would, and I will not pretend that I wouldn't, because THAT would actually be more unconscious than the alternative". To be conscious means to recognize that if I saw someone torture an animal, I would want to rip them apart and to torture them too. That's what I am, and if I want to change that, it won't be enough to just say "I am too unconscious to do that!". I could do that, I could stop myself for this reason, but that is not truly solving the deeper issue here. Mr Girls point is that peopel are stopping themselves from being mean to trans people for fear, not because that's who they are. And we all need to watch out for what we truly are, to come to terms with it. Because only then can we begin to change. Stage Yellow is shedding your Self Image, and allow your authentic self to shine through. To be yourself, with all your ugliness, for everyone to see. Because that's what you are, and that's what everyone is. You are the only one who is willing to show it, which of course will get you in trouble in a society in which everyone wears the mask and forgot what their faces even look like. Everyone pretends they are not selfish, yet everyone is selfish. You are selfish, I am selfish. The danger here is of course that yellow might be too easy to accept it's own selfishness, and to not change it. Another example is, I might argue that I care about animals because they are suffering more and whatever. And sure, that is true, they suffer more and there are much more of them who suffer. But that's not the actual reason why I care about this issue more than human issues. I care about it because that's how I feel about animals. I look at them and I feel pure innocence, and whether or not they are innocent is irrelevant. That's how I feel, and that's all the reason I need. Everything else is a lie. This is a new type of freedom. Because usually, you restrict yourself from being authentic because you want to uphold a self image, to yourself and others. You don't want others to know how selfish you are, you don't even want to know yourself how selfish you are! But you are you little seflish bastard. And that's just the truth. You can pretend to yourself and others that you aren't, but that will not change the truth. This is also why yellow is not interested in convincing others. Because that is just another lie. I want people to actually care about animals. Not because I convinced them that they should, but because they can see the same innocence in them that I can. And that I cannot do with arguments, I cannot do it by debunking them. The only thing I can do is show them my authentic self, and maybe, but most likely not, they will be touched by my authentic self in an authentic way that authentically changes them.