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I was a mutant before, now I realised I'm not that! Neti neti hellsyeah

@Charlotte It's neti, neti, until not even that ... Not good with words? Not to worry. Talk to the wind ... It does not care .

@StephenK Mouse and I don't really disagree on much. It's mostly just a difference in emphasis and style. He wants you to take a very narrow approach, pure neti neti -- because that's the approach that apparently worked well for him. There is value in that if your only concern is the direct pursuit of the Absolute and nothing else matters to you and you are 100% motivated to get to the Absolute. For a few people that will work. But for most people it will not simply because they have a lot of psychological obstacles to deal with first and they won't resonate with neti neti. Each path has its pros and cons. And then there are issues outside of the domain of strict nonduality, like epistemology or philosophy of science or mastering your emotions or how to be a good human being or what you should do with your life... none of which will be adequately addressed by neti neti or any other one method or teaching. The fuel of all these spiritual debates is that one person tries to push his spiritual path onto everyone else because he feels his path is the best, assuming it will work for everyone else. This assumption is totally false. But that doesn't stop the person from trying because he's a firm believer in his one path. Because most people haven't seriously walked multiple paths and they have been radicalize by one teacher or another and turned into zealots. There's nothing new about this. It's been happening since the dawn of time. Everyone believes their path is the best and should be adopted by everyone else. You have to appreciate that reaching enlightenment is a totally separate matter from effectively teaching and spreading enlightenment. The greatest spiritual achievers are not necessarily the greatest spreaders and teachers. The teacher has to meet the student where the student is at. And many enlightened people don't know how to do that. In the same way that the best physicists are rarely the best physics teachers. To whittle all of life down to neti neti is extremely short-sighted in my opinion. And as a teacher, it doesn't make sense to me. As a teacher, I have to be open to a variety of tools and methods. There are SO many amazing tools for raising consciousness and personal development that I would never want to abandon them all for neti neti. Some spiritual paths are very narrow, emphasizing only the Absolute. Other spiritual paths are very broad, emphasizing diet, right conduct, compassion, psychological development, paranormal abilities, right relationships, etc. Neither one is best. There are tradeoffs to each and you have to choose for yourself which is right for you at which time in your life. Personally, I employ both types of teachings, narrow and broad. I find both incredibly worthwhile.

I'm a bit confused by your response, it's a bit cryptic. I was just saying I'm not sure the real effectiveness of neti neti, or self-inquiry and I feel a Vipassana style works better, but ultimately I could absolutely be wrong. Which is why I made sure to add that he, or she, should do what feels right for them. My only point is that when you concentrate on 'what is' you in effect are doing self-inquiry and neti neti. If you can focus on a sensation in the present moment, the moments with no mind you are experiencing reality without the mind taking ownership. I feel that neti neti in particular could be a bit neurotic because it seems like instead of trying to quiet the mind you're having the thought, "this sensation is NOT me" rather than just seeing the sensation as it is. I believe the goal should be see sensations as they are rather than "this sensation is me," or "this sensation is NOT me." It should look more like "this sensation is this sensation." In my humble opinion. Like I said, I could be wrong. Smarter more experienced people than me would disagree so I'm open to being completely wrong about this.

My opinion is not going to agree with a lot of people on this forum, but I think that self-inquiry and neti neti aren't necessarily the best ways of meditating. If you focus on a sensation and attempt to quiet the mind, you are seeing reality as it is and as a result you are doing same thing as neti neti and self-inquiry in a way. The thing I've always noticed with self-inquiry is that I'd inquire about the self and then my mind would try to find an answer. Any answer it finds is false because that is just the nature of the mind, so I'd often simply go to the present moment with a sensation. I don't know, just take this for what it is and do what you feel is right.

You've asked a lot of questions, many which one wouldn't need to ask or worry about if they were serious. They are just more ego distractions to save itself and keep the mind active on the wrong places. Good questions don't look like them. A lot of it can be summed as just going alone, starting again as you've never read anything and finding out for yourself. Use the foundation of an approach (who am I, neti neti, is this true) and discover for yourself. Maybe if you uncover what it might (not) be, go back and check what they are saying matches the same recognition. You'll then maybe see how they themselves are unknowingly supporting the illusion by talking and describing it as much as they do to their followers. Regarding the bold, yes, they are all distraction. Fun ones. But distractions. They are what some call, spiritual materialism. It was a playground I was familiar so i'm not saying they are not real per se, but one important discovery made me abandon them all. They all pre-suppose and promote 'separation' and the big one pre-suppose and promote a personal and others identity. I had to throw them out, and yes, you kinda do have to be ruthless with this as ego is attached to a lot and maya is a trickster. It will very hard if one has as spent years in a place that supports a false self.

Neti neti not this ?

Welp seems like you're open minded enough to consider the possibility that you dont exist so watch Neti Neti method by leo. You dont have to believe shit he says but he'll guide you through a empirical investigation

Hey Guys, so I´ve been doing Self Inquiry for over a week now daily for at least 30 minutes. (to be honest I´ve lost track for how long exactly but anyways...) I´ve gotten some insights, which you can partially read in my previous posts, but for the last 2 days I felt like hitting my head against a solid 3 kilometers thick brick wall of ancieties, preconceptions, fears, beliefs and so on. And by brick I mean like mo**f***ng BRICK. Like the real kind. The kind that you need like wagons full of dynmite to get through. You get my point it seems insurmountable. Basically my mind is unwilling to open to there even being a possibility of the state of no self which we refer to as enlightenment, awakening and all sorts of other labels. So today I thought I´d switch it up a knotch and why not do the Guided Visualization by Leo in his Neti Neti Method Video. So I did and now the "problem is even clearer. In his video he´s saying something like: Until you´ve opened your mind up to the possibility of not being a Self your not ready to do the Inquiry. The inquiry starts after you´ve opened your mind. And this is what happened... "No I can´t", rebells my mind in utter panic. "Why not I ask", a little bit annoyed. "Because this is all we have. We only have ourselves. Without this you´ll be unsafed, you´ll be alone, you´ll be damned !" I get more and more frustrated and pissed at my self. How could I be so stupid ? After reading all the books and watching all the videos about Enlightenment, how the Ego keeps you enslaved and so forth this protector part had such an utter faith in the fact that the old me, the mind, the EGO would be the only way to feel secure. I´m hitting my head against this wall. Again and again. And like a snake the mind wispers: "No don´t try. It´s pointless. It´s obvious. We know how we are." I take note of the comment. Try to not give it to much energy and focus again on my inquiry. And there´s the wall again. This doesn´t make any sense. My mind distracts me with totally random thoughts of this or that. My relashionship, eating food, porn and what not. It´s so annoying. In fact it´s painfull. Not to mention my other inner emotional conflicts which constantly interfer. My heart and throat chakra tensed in anxiety. It all feels hopeless and pointless. I´m stuck forever stuck in this rotten misery. So known. So ugly. But yet it somehow feels safe. I can´t get out. I have to get out. I´m in resistance. I´m stuck. Gosh this is annoying. But sometimes. This slight hint of an awareness that there´s something there to discover which I´m simply unaware of for now. The insight of how lacking the connection to this conciousness, this awareness, is the root of all my "problems" in life. But I can find it. Somehow. Some way. There´s hope. Not only that. There´s perspective. Perspective for all the love and passion to pour right to the wounds inflicted in the past and light to crack into the concrete block of equmiliated falsehood and deception of the mind. It keeps me driving to the truth all day everyday. With every step and every breath. So my question is how do i make this part of me feel safe enough to start doing the Inquiry and no longer resisting it ? And how do I deal with my mind and Ego resisting this work ? Much Love, Moritz

@Serotoninluv “you” = self = ego = symbol within the scope of the dual = the sum of experiences and memories and beliefs and actions that behaves as a separate entity from that which it perceives. Nondual or or not we do in fact perceive existences through a veil of duality. It is a part of the experience. That is not separate from that which is inseparable. Yet we manage to do it anyway hah - but that there is the real purpose of “ego death” - to find some level of oneness, elevate consciousness to be less limited by the illusions of duality. the contradictions are really hard to avoid ... @tool/use it. I am unsure if I follow that. I cannot use a mouth to eat itself. I am missing the point... why woul the ego be a tool used to transcend ego? I suppose there is neti neti, or even to look at the yin and notice how it outlines the yang. Is this what is meant by ego as a tool? Or perhaps you are stating how meditation can feel novel and yet remain ego.... the same illusion as before but on a new level of it.. in a way that that is all we can do to try to embrace the absolute.... hm.... thought provoking actually.

@Jamie Universe It's just a word pointing nowhere to someone who has never had glimpse of one's true nature. If you are completely "new" I recommend you to start with neti neti method:

1.) Q: What is the Intent for spirituality? A: To realize God. E: There is no greater thing to realize and invest “time” into. This is top priority. One cannot become enlightened, but only the realization of it can come about. Thus, the objective is to increase the percentages of this by putting time into the work which can serve as a catalyst. 2.) Q: Analysis and Gathering of intelligence? A: There are three stages to realization 1.) Neti-Neti: Process of elimination to break the false identification of the ego. 2.) Self Abidance: once the process of phenomenal elimination is finished, remain as what is left which itself is not an experience. It cannot be found, it can only be. 3.) Yeti-Yeti: This is the process of the realization of oneness with the entire phenomenal spectrum. There are no boundaries between awareness (God) and the entire spectrum of phenomenal experience. E: https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/7587-list-of-enlightenment-exercises/ -Rupert Spira, Mooji, Adyashanti, Shinzen Young. 3.) Q: preparation of resources? A: time and intensity in solitude are the only resources needed. 4.) Q: Concentration of force? A: execute when the schedule says so. This is also the utmost priority. It is better if most of the free time is put into this. Friday and saturday after 5 can be used to hang with friends. After that, sundays are used to go to the gym and do enlightenment work in solitude. Furthermore, every night before going to sleep, taking time for enlightenment work. 5.) Q: execution? A: execute when the schedule says so. 6.) Q: Adaptability? A: just get it done. There maybe be short bursts of time when there is an emergency in the xy, but for the most part, most of the free time is invested in this. 7.) Q: Study of Principals? A: Refer to notes about these: actualized, Rupert Spira, books, adyashanti, neti neti, meditation, being. Books: - The Science of Enlightenment by Shinzen Young. - The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace. - The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. -The book of not knowing. - Stillness Speaks by Eckhart Tolle. Summary: Live a minimalist lifestyle and declutter mental and physical things in order to focus time and attention into what is most important. Have the breakthrough and use the insight to purify life and get rid of old mental and physical patterns/habits.

@Joseph Maynor the more you “study” these stuff the more infinitely confused you will get. All you need to know is three stages of realization. The first the neti neti method. This is for beginners to disidentify with the body, fellings and thoughts and see on direct experience that you are none of those. Then the highest form of meditation that you become aware that you are aware. You are awareness, observer, consciousness. And finally after enough practice you merge with entirety of “your” observed experience and you become the God’s knowing of this finite human experience. Forget that word Enlightenment exists. The only thing that you know exist is you. This is the finding of yourself. The source of your being. That is all you need to know really. After your liberation you decide what is more relevant to you.

imo it's important to notice the illusory nature of thought, and practicing no-thought is one good way to meditate for sure, to search for mindfulness. but it's a little ironic to think that thought can ever go away it ain't really gone and it isn't really bad. it's just something which grabs your attention and can distract you. lots of things can distract you. it's easy to say "before enlightenment, carry wood chop water. after enlightenment, carry wood chop water" her but I think the more important message is how absorbed some people can get in carrying wood and chopping water that they fail to milk the cows and chat with the spouse during the lazy afternoon break. idk what you really mean by trying to achieve fake growth, I think you take a different message from the video than I did. what I found important in the message was to not get caught up in the thrill of accomplishment, when thrill is something which ain't really reliable or consistent is. the growth we seek is something which is stable and reliable. learning chess can have stable and reliable results too. if you feel thinking, processing strategy, planning, these things help you play chess. why stop it? it isn't fake growth to become a better thinker. it's fake growth to think that being a better thinker makes you a better mindful person. mindfulness is not thinking, and is more fundamental - mindfulness can exist in thought, in fact, awareness is necessary for thought to develop... awareness is really fundamental to all. thinking, just as chopping wood, or sex, or thrill, these things can distract us from finding mindfulness. overall leo tends to push us towards consiousness work and especially enlightenment and experiencing infinty/god/nothingness/noself/etc. whatever you wanna call it. but you can have fake growth as you move towards those goals, just as you can have "true growth" when moving towards chess mastery. the difference is just another illusion, in the end. these concepts - fake growth v. true growth. thought v awareness. they are only useful for finding more duality - more illusion - more belief - more lower self. but even the yogi returns to concept. it's just different. this is the meaning of enlightenment really - change, to take what you saw before and see it in a more full light. before and after, chop wood carry water. but, after - there's something more to it. it's different. after enlightenment, chopping wood carrying water - even thinking - don't need to be thrilling to be fulfilling. but thrill isn't bad. it just distracts us from what is True. we find ways to strip away thrill, strip away thought, to come to understand better what existence is like without those things. neti neti! and yet, we return to the illusions. it'd be unhealthy not to. but it's also unhealthy to get so absorbed in illusion, we lose sight of what's really there.

Hey folks! This is a question I've been asking myself for a while now. As I understand there is no best method, but still I am trying to figure out how to combine meditation with self-inquiry in a way that both fit together smoothly towards having the realisation of enlightenment. I meditate with contemplation twice a day. Here is what I currently tend to do. - I set a timer for 30+ minutes (I am working on having longer sessions) and I sit down closing my eyes. I like to meditate in complete silence even though I suspect having tinnitus, so I am not even near complete silence at all since there is a ringing noise which seems to be quite noticeable once I am having a meditation session. - Once started, I take four deep breaths, in through the nose and out through my mouth. At times I hold the breath for 5 seconds and exhale for 7 or 8 seconds. I might do this during the meditation too at times. - After this I tell myself, "Become fully aware right now. Become aware of the present moment." Here I scan the body and I become more aware of feelings, sensations & thoughts. I sit with this a few seconds before telling myself, "We're trying to find formlessness. It's not hidden, in fact you're so close to "it" that you need to soften your focus. We're searching for something that is always there regardless of what you perceive and feel. - Then, I am using the Neti Neti method mixed with mindfulness. Basically I go in my mind, "iiiiIIIIIIIIIIIIIII..." what is this "iiIIIII?" Here the voice comes in and says things like, "You're (I am) the body. You're the brain. You're awareness. You're a perceiver - and so on...", but then I try to "logically" disprove this by taking the components apart. Such as... "Wait... this voice is it me? No, it can't be because it always changes. Wait a minute... there is this feeling and the thought that there is an entity sitting here meditating, but am I a feeling and thought? Hmm... those always change. The body dies eventually and we're looking for something that can't die. So I can't be that." I have to admit that I am at times "half-assing" this process. During this I might say things in my mind like... Become present. The now, is all there is. Let go of trying to figure out things with the mind. Let go of trying to control things. Let go of thoughts, feelings, emotions, just let everything go. Just be here, observe, let awareness wander wherever it wants to go. There is nothing else to do. There is nowhere else to be than here, in the now. Surrender yourself completely, to what is. Just let go, surrender to reality, just be aware. Relax. There is nothing to figure out, just be aware. Soften your attention. Let go of ideas and concepts, let go of "you". Everything that is perceived is not you. It's content arising and "you" focusing on it. This tends to ground me in some ways, but I also then tend to label perceptions. For example, I hear a bird, then in my mind I go, "Sound." I perceive that my leg hurts, I go "Bodily sensation." A thought is arising? I go, "Thought" in my mind. This right here might be conflicting, because on one hand you're supposed to surrender and leave the mind be, but simultaneously my focus at times is on labeling. In the beginning of the meditation/self-inquiry that's when I usually do this labeling thing, but after maybe 1/3rd into the session I just stop it to some degree and I go with just observing - yet also saying phrases like those above so I don't drift off in monkey mind. This at times leads me to "states" where the heart startes beating rapidly and where the perceptions seem more sharp and me more sensitive to perceiving. It then feels at times like the mind just can't really support the "I" concept, since it's rather a belief, thought and a feeling, so it kinda seems to be more open to other possiblities. But those again are just feelings, thoughts and perceptions. - The alarm goes off. I open my eyes and continue with my day/night. This is roughly what a session looks like for me. I've been looking for meditation regarding enlightement, but I mostly got guided visualisations which require focusing with the mind, maybe even more focusing than just repeating phrases now and then to ground yourself. People say that you should leave the mind alone, be present and just observe. Sure, the neti neti method isn't exactly "leaving the mind alone", yet it helps to break down the belief-structure of "I". Many guided meditations for enlightenment can be bought and are expensive, yet I don't really trust them so I thought I'd rather hear what you guys have to say . What do you think is "the best" method regarding meditation when working towards enlightenment? What are your experiences with combining meditation & self-inquiry? What method do you find useful? If the method/process that I use is alright, is there something I could do better to improve it? Do you have any tips and pointers on how to meditate and do self-inquiry. Also... the picture isn't related to the topic. I wanted to check out the upload feature.

I'm currently reading Neti-Neti Meditation by Andre Doshim Halaw and he already confused me haha, which is good. I am clinging too much to concept of me being awareness. Somewhere in the beginning stated "We are not our senses, perceptions, awareness, consciousness, emotions, bodies, thoughts." Which really made me wonder. What can I be if I am not even awareness? Of course, this is something I have to find out for myself but I was wondering how you guys comprehend this. Is awareness a quality of the Absolute?

It can no be measured and it can not be converted into an object. It can't be known. Whatever you know is not you. The only thing you don't know is your essence, because everything that is an object is not you... neti neti... (not this not this) To find the Brahman or your essence you have to do like an sculptor, that removes the rock that is not the piece of art until the sculpture appears. By removing what is not, you find what is... but if you have the experience of knowing your self, after the experience you won't find words to describe it accurately, because there aren't. It's not possible. :-)

I think there is something you have not experienced yet. Imagine telling someone to look towards the window. They look and see trees, grass, etc but what you were referring to was the actual glass. Its a matter of paradigm. I would recommend that you watch Leo's no-self guided meditation and guided visualization on the Neti Neti method and mediate on those. Once you have a real experience of no-self while doing self-inquiry, I think your meditation will be much different because you will now have something to shoot for.

@David S It might be different but the idea stays the same. Believing that you won't exist is nothing like experiencing that you don't exist. If something has not been a direct experience for you it is belief. For me doing Neti-Neti meditation helped me expose the way I belief in the self. Maybe this could help you as well. Video that might help you understand:

I experienced thoughtless awareness and some physical sensations which are slightly different than the norm. I could have gotten a bit of a glimpse of "nothingness" through Leo's neti neti video. What you describe seems quite beyond my experiences.

Just coming by asking for a good self-inquiry method. Anybody got some experience with neti-neti?

Self enquiry (Neti Neti): I am not my state of consciousness

@Nahm Hey, my last inquiry was hard...there were many distracting thoughts and I was only able to focus for maybe 10-15 minutes... During that time I discovered that my present identification is that I am the body and the thoughts and that reality is outside of me...It is interesting to see that there is still identification with the body and the mind even though I have undermined that possibility many times in a Neti-Neti style of inquiry. Even though I have no proof that suggests my identification to be correct, I still believe it like a SUCKER! Lol. Going to continue practicing! thank you for me helping me!

Very cool @Joseph Maynor , I agree totally for what is there to know? Everything you hold up to That doesn't hold true at all, Absolutely everything, inludng Leo's concepts, including my concepts, including your concepts, basically All concepts. It is that simple. Do you really think that God doesn't give to us all equally though? We are all That after all aren't we. Every thing we experience is That breaking us down and pointing to its existence, leading us home. How could it be any other way? That is completely without condition, it loves and gives to ALL in equal measure. Truth reveals itself in everything when it is revealed which isn't seen until it is seen. And like it or not The ego is actually as much a part of That as anything. God loves the Devil that is why God is God. The Devil is the one that tells us to love only that which it tells you is true, and to reject what it tells you is false. As soon as you start to cut up and say this is good and that is not you are getting into a space of dogma and belief, the devil is steering the ship in other words. Sure you have to let it ALL go to realise That but you are still here, not even Sri Ramana Maharishi (who was touched by God without practise) could think himself out of existence, so what does that tell you? Have you ever heard of the Hindu practise Neti, neti, or not this, not this. It rings true without being Truthful as it only points. Yes I do not know, no one does, yet I am That, as are we all. Namaste

Regarding identity you don't have to have one. Once you understand that not relating to people and being alone is fine then you will be able to still connect with people and talk to them normally even if you can't relate to them. Relating to others isn't necessary, but know your basis similar to them even if you've figured something new out. Right now you have a perspective of needing an identity. It's sort of your identity, a person who needs an identity. You don't need any roles, letting go of them and having your natural inspiring self is enough. You can just follow the values of spiritual teachers or what Leo recommends for now. You won't go too wrong with them. You also don't have to think to yourself how different you are from others. It's totally fine to be different and it's only another distraction to worry about it. If you feel like you're socially awkward you could try to not force conversations too much and instead just see how other people converse. Not so much the words but the feeling and rhythm. After a while you start to get a hang of the basics and you'll develop your own style. I wouldn't stop meditating. Instead I would actually encourage you to watch leo's self-inquiry video, neti neti method and do some exercises that are in this forum in meditation area. This will give you more understand of what you are. Also his videos on enlightenment and nature of reality probably help. You might feel overwhelmed right now but that feeling will pass. Just push through and figure stuff out with patience and you'll be all good.