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I don't think there is anything right or wrong with it, and I don't think that saying it's wrong as a way to coherce someone to not commit suicide is the best or most loving way to do so. I'd say to a person who wants to do it "Ok, I love such that you're free to do it and I can't necessarily stop you if you wanted to do it." But also that I think it's true that if the person did commit suicide, they'd feel deep regret since they might realize the love they've broken by losing life, reality, others, etc.. So it's almost like those saying to not commit suicide can only simply suggest it, perhaps from empathic knowledge that the person will regret it. And that if a person doesn't want the other to commit suicide from hurt about missing that person, that that could be selfishness on their part, but perhaps also love as well, but that perhaps the most loving way to interact and respect a person who wants to commit suicide is to try to not impose your own desires on them since they may then feel trapped and not free, but that the best way may be to simply suggest in a way indicating you're not trying to manipulate them, but simply trying to help them see if they really want to or not and that they may really regret the decision. I don't know at all about this as I've not really thought about it. But I think for me I see truth in these values of showing love to others by not imposing your will on them, even in these types of situations, and that that may be the better way of helping them in the end since you're showing them unconditional love, which may be a more powerful force in helping them change their decision then trying to manipulate and force them to not commit suicide since you're selfishly not wanting them to die so you can avoid your own suffering from that (which I'm also not condemning, since I think that is also 100% understandable). Seems to be something there with truth.
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Not the final outcome of life. Planning a date is not the same as planning a suicide. You can't simply stop eating and drinking water. Your survival instinct will kick in and you will go back to eating. Some people might have suicided by starvation, though it's just another method of suicide. It's still suicide.
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@Preety_India but aren't people constantly deciding outcomes of their life with their every action? Also, what if I just stopped eating and drinking water and died? Would it still be a suicide?
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@BornToBoil 2 things can potentially be wrong with suicide: That you hurt people who know you. And the possibility that life can get better, but that doesn't apply to everyone. Some souls are obnoxious and aren't loved by anyone. In my opinion people got it backwards. When a birth happens there should be mourning and when death happens there should be joy.
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I would fucking love to be stuck in a social scene. Daygame? No bars or clubs? That would be paradise for me. Except for the masks and the social distancing. But isn't everyone receiving classes online? Dear @coca my advice to you is to give up. Just. Give. Up. In the sense of expecting to get laid anytime soon. Please don't give up on living. Keep living@coca once you give up everything is gonna be easier. I battled with depression from age 31 to 33. I thought about suicide a lot. I am glad I survived. PM me if you wanna talk Arc
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I'm ready for death too, but not because of enlightenment stuff. The problem is that the body insists on surviving, even if you rationally know that suicide is the right thing to do. So life is a prison of suffering, and you don't even know how you got there. Life is so bizarre.
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99.999% people don't understand me beyond a surface level, not even my ex questionable mentor, so.... I'm pretty lost and I'm 'bad' with words in this state. I can't identify what I'm thinking even after a couple deep breaths..need help asap, already called some suicide hotline numbers like 3 times in a span of 2 days. Ye, I am apathy?
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@charlie cho Yeah, just be aware that you love the goal for how it makes you feel now, not as a hope for future salvation dependent upon the success of it. Funny how when we are in a funk and can't see clearly we interpret seeing through the illusion and suffering of self as a desire to kill ourselves. ? I know you mean it as a joke here, but what you said is profound. Who wants to kill who? It's the duality, the split, the self judging the self as if there were TWO selves that you want to dissolve, or heal. Healing is complete dissolution of a problem. The desire to heal ourselves and the desire to get rid of ourselves are the same... BUT feel and are interpreted very differently depending on how off track we are from the actual Love and healing that we really are. There already aren't two, so how can we possible judge ourselves, or worry about ourselves? We can't and when we try it feels awful, because we've completely diverted from the truth of what we are. It's mysterious how a desire to heal beyond the kind of healing our mind recognizes as possible could come out as hypochondria. And a desire to heal the split between one's true self and one's thoughts of oneself can come out as the desire for suicide, sort of like in the example of Eckhart Tolle.
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The word desire means something different to each person, just like the word love. While I don’t per se disagree, I don’t find it precise to say desire arises post awakening. There is ultimately nothing to desire, as the fuel of desire is actually holon activity of an a part unknowingly pursuing it’s own wholeness, which it believes is not already the actuality. In that specific regard, desire is delusional. Desire in a way is no more than a misinterpretation of self, love, creation, and role in it. How could some thing be desired in a dream when the “thing” is me, the dream? It ‘dies’ with the limiting misidentification as human and the paradigm of separate physical things. It was never ‘wrong’, it was natural, because, infinite being is absolutely innocent. I could not in good conscience ‘blame’ a thirty year old for desire anymore than I could a two month old. It’s natural, yet not justifiable, hence the discord, and shaming individuals is never the way, and is always the expression of one’s own internalizing & holding of shame. Law of attraction could be said to be the turning point. From desire of ‘things’ without, to the recognition of the wholeness, and the source of all ‘things’, within. Reactionary behaviors & choices, as well as victim mindsets, etc, which could be rationalized via desire are scrutinized when one is said to be attracting one’s own experience. This inevitably brings one to inspect one’s own intentions & desires. It could be said that the awakened one is fueled with desire in spreading the message, which I’d be fine with. But I think upon more scrutiny that experience is simply sharing this love, and one in doing so is truly empowered, with inspiration, passion and joy. When the lens of loa really is worn, when it is seen I create my suffering, and without it joy is the default, this is seen to be true for all others. Very eye opening in regard to world views, religions, wars, politics, etc. The entire landscape lens changes. How creating our dream reality works... (goes & gets pedestal). The “answer” at the end of the day, is God, which is to say the question too, is God. The ‘catch’ is of course, we’re God, and not-two. The word perhaps ain’t nobody tryin ta hear, is responsibility. The experience of reality prioritizes itself. Care for the body mind and then outward. One aligns, one get’s one head on straight, one abides by the heart, one get’s one’s immediate environment aligned, and one then does or doesn’t, continue creating one’s reality in the realization one is nondual, everyone, the whole show. This natural unfolding of experience for an individuation, is the exact same unfolding for the multiplicity, the whole, or collective, co-creating. My ‘radical idea’ to contribute here is most simple. A community such as this creates a website which has a democratically created outline of acceptable parameters for a company. Could be ceo makes X$ in comparison to the entry level $. Could be x% of environmental impact. Could entail timelines to reach these parameters. Could have a ‘on probation’ warning facet. Otherwise, it’d have simply two columns, companies which meet these parameters and we buy from them, and companies which don’t and we don’t. I believe companies would be interested to be in the ‘we do’ column. Competition is to fierce and too fast to sleep on it. People might like this, because people work for companies, and are in large part getting fucked over every which way they turn. But the majority has the power, always. We’re all creating this, always. It’s an idea that arose from your question, it’s not perfect, like any idea, it’s a contribution. For the record, I would never, ever, commit suicide, and there is no logical reason to utilize the middle name of someone in media, should I be murdered by them. Feelin the love, thanks. Soon. If you’re interested you can get notified when it’s done.
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I just watched the Social Dillemna, a powerful documentary that discloses the manipulation and persuasion within the algorithms of Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, etc. The advice was to delete all social media so that we don't contribute to the real issues arising from such manipulation, such as; conspiracy theories, fake news, political divisiveness being at an all time high, distraction, wasting time, depression, suicide, and close mindedness. This may existential. But as a musician, I understand most bands and artists almost have to post and market on Instagram to get exposed enough. How else could we make a living online? Are there alternatives? What's your advice
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Stop thinking so much. People think their way to suicide.
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Flyboy replied to Digi Pal's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
I think this post a little deliberately inflammatory, but my understanding at this point is that there is a sensate aspect of enlightenment that is reached through extreme meditative investigation. I don't fully understand this path as of yet, but it seems like it relates to eliminating the "separation" or "delay" between sensation and perceiver, until ultimately when the two become identical for all sensations experienced, the "rug is pulled from under" the separate inside self, as there is nowhere left for an identity to hide. This is so-called "permanent" enlightenment. (Also, do not underestimate the amount of work Frank Yang put into his achievement--some 7,000 hours of obsessive meditation. Daniel Ingram relates a similar effort. This method is HARD.) However, virtually all enlightenments have to do with a temporary or permanent falling away of the conceptual self, so it is conceivable that this sensate method is not the ONLY method which achieves this. For example, Ralston essentially advocates a kind of self deconstruction, while Spira is more about gradual dissolution through recognition of awareness, while Eckhart Tolle dropped his ego in place of suicide. 5-MeO eliminates the ego chemically (though usually temporarily), as do many other psychedelics. Glimpses seem to result from momentary "cessations" of ego. A glimpse is not discredited by being momentary, though it does unfortunately get relegated to "concept" as soon as it is in the past, technically putting it in belief territory. Still, a memory/belief of direct experience is probably the next best thing to an on-going direct experience. That being said, as Leo and others have indicated, I think the depth to which one can "awaken" can only be an infinity beyond all concept of infinity, if reality is in fact Absolutely Infinite. -
@Dunnel I would love to talk to you, if you're open to it. It's wild what you're explaining here, I feel like you're in my head. I have been experiencing the same desperate need just to have no more experiences. No more desires. To be relieved from the need to maintain survival. I've been thinking really hard about why and what I can do, and just anything to stop me from thinking about suicide, which has gotten exhausting and repetitive. I am afraid that I don't have what it takes, and that I just can never develop into it. My ego is pissed off at not getting what it wants but also doesn't want to do any work to get any of it. But really its because I want to have all the love. I want to love and be loved. And I am afraid I never really will, and my life will be wasted. But what would it be like to look back from the death bed and not have any regrets?
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So you ARE looking for solution!? Which is it. What do you mean, embracing life and not looking for solution, it doesn't add up. Nothing wrong with venting out when you are looking for how to create a situation, especially internally, to not need to vent even. Why do you think you are helpless? If you are not looking for a solution, how do you know there is not a solution? If you don't seek solutions, the only and only thing that will happen is depression, desperation, hatred towards everything and suicide. You are really worth more than that.
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Well, fact is that other people would suffer very much if someone committs suicide, there's no way to get around it, even if you think that morally people have the right to kill themselves. I think they do morally have the right to kill themselves. But that it causes others to suffer immensely is a simple fact, so anyone who has even a bit empathy should put that in the calculation. One of the most common suicide methods is safe and painless when done properly. But since you aren't allowed to mention safe methods in forums.. people choose bad methods. NDE accounts can't be trusted as evidence. And when people like Neale Donald Walsch and other "gurus" claim something without any evidence.. It's not worth anything at all. His book could be used as toilet paper though.
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I've always railed against the argument about causing suffering to others. It implies living purely for the feelings of others. Should somebody stay in an abusive relationship to avoid hurting the feelings of the partner? The 'it can get better' argument is very applicable to young people. Not so applicable to 80-year-olds. People in between need to decide where to draw the line. One thing to keep in mind is that many suicide attempts fail and can lead to permanent injury or being treated horribly by government institutions. Other methods may be barbaric or unethical. The only peaceful and effective methods require much forethought, which is good in a way as it prevents people from making rash decisions. Another consideration is the research of suicide-NDE studies. Even a quick search of NDERF will enable unbiased research into the topic. Often people find themselves in the 'void' for long periods, denied the great light that normally applies to people whose lives conclude conventionally. According to Neale Donald Walsch's Home with God book, individuals who complete suicide will be reborn, back in time, into the same lifetime to try again. While the story of the 'unhappy me' is of course very familiar and very strongly identified with, my advice is to find out if it is true before trying to kill the body as a solution. I am not speaking of meditation as a pain-management band-aid, but the way of Eckhart Tolle, the way of Nisargadatta Maharaj, the way of Ramana Maharshi. Die before you die.
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There's 2 rational justifications I can think of: The suffering your suicide would cause people who know you. And the possibility that it can get better later in life. But it's of course not certain that it will get better. The chance of it getting better varies between cases. Finally some truth and honesty. Nice post ? I like it.
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@Dunnel Suicide is not a solution. Be proactive about your situation. Reclaim your life. If you have OCD, talk to a doctor. Don't think about your OCD. It can reduce significantly if you accept it.. Suicide is easy. Be a hope for others. Live hard. You might think that nobody misses you. But millions of people miss you even if they don't know you Deep down we're all connected. I hope you take positive action. I've been suicidal all my life. It's not easy. I know it's not easy.. But I'm changing gradually one day at a time.
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@Preety_Indiayeah so I have been suffering from OCD for most of my life. Way more uncouncious than you can imagine a normal person can be. Spent a huge chunk of my time just thinking as a matter of getting control. This would to an extent distract myself from the fact that I was depressed which is something that got more clearer when I started meditating. Ive tried for many years, but only recently has I been able to a lot more. And I have never been this miserable. This is a whole new level of terror. I can barely pay attention to what im consuming in terms of television, reading unless it actually matters to me. And now that all my activities is meaningless to me, its pretty hard to look forward to anything besides enlightnement which is inconceivable right now. I have a hard time actually feeling my emotions. It feels like im rather repressing them. Feels like im being controlled by a puppeteer. I dont really know what you can help me with. Im basically just bitching online so that people can feel sorry for me. I know that I should fix my diet, but I have huge gag problems. There are times when I can confront it and get more used to eating stuff that im dissgusted by, but other times I just get ego backlashes and go back to normal. Same goes for exersise. Been going back and forth like this for years. All I want now is peace and quiet. I dont give a shit about life purpose anymore. I basically just wanna go full eckhart and commit mental suicide. But If I cant do it mentally, might as well do it physically. I need some fire lit inside me that makes me wanna go and explore the world despite the meaninglesness of it all. Huge reason why havent yet done it is becasue I cant stand the fact that my family would have to go through my suicide. But that dosent really matter either when im dead. Im not that selfless.
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Moksha replied to JayFueel's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
Exactly. None of the great spiritual masters teaches suicide of the form, only suicide of the ego. Rather than disparaging life as meaningless, they emphasize the hero's journey. If life has no purpose, why bother teaching love, and the end of suffering? Is it helpful to say that ultimately, there is no soul, there is no journey, and there is no purpose? Or is there wisdom in recognizing that God creates this cosmos for a reason? The realization of ultimate reality is correct, yet it has no power to liberate us from this transient form. It only provides perspective. There is not only ultimate reality, there is also relative reality. God is all of it. This understanding allows lucidity, enhancing the quality of our experience, however transient it may be. -
Tuesday 19/09/2020 , 20:30 I don't know why I exist or why things are the way they are. I've asked myself now to wonder why I'm addicted and how addiction is, but I also open my mind to my judgements being wrong. And so it is I say, Maybe "addiction" and "wasting my life" isn't so wrong. Maybe suicide isn't such an irrational idea. Maybe I won't "wake up". Maybe there's no need and no point to me studying for these exams. Maybe it's fine if I'm never happy. Maybe it's fine if I never regain my emotion or regain my past. Maybe it's fine if my Dp & Dr lasts forever. Maybe it's completely fine for me to be depressed and sapped of energy. So where does that leave this sad kid? Who is he and can he be, or have, anything? Maybe it's fine if he lives the most unremarkable and dull life there is
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@Rayster This one? https://www.hindustantimes.com/hollywood/thor-actor-isaac-kappy-commits-suicide-leaves-behind-note-on-instagram/story-HSc0aro0XsFi970B9jXUFK.html That conspiracy is not true IMO https://www.mediamatters.org/google/qanon-linked-conspiracy-theory-about-tom-hanks-reached-twitters-and-googles-search
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Edit: I should’ve made it clear in the initial post that I’m talking about solipsism from the point of consciousness being the self in the definition of “self alone/alone self” rather than the ego being the self instead of waiting until later posts to clarify this. This ultimately caused a lot of confusion in the responses. It was entirely my fault as I was using an altered definition of the word without clarifying, which I often get frustrated when others do this. About a month ago, I had some very solipsistic insights. This made me question every spiritual belief or even everyday non-spiritual belief I’ve had previous to that, and I’m still in a seemingly unshakable state of skepticism. Before these solipsistic insights and newly found skepticism for spirituality, I used to believe in a universe existing outside of what I directly experience in the moment. I used to believe all living beings had consciousness under the framework of Brahman. I even started to believe that all points in the universe could be conscious. Here’s an example of one thing Leo said that seems to support solipsism: Forum user - “I have determined mahasamadhi is impossible because causing emotional harm to your family members through suicide under the premise that something good will happen to you. It is selfish.” Leo responding - “Lol That's just an excuse you imagined so that you remain inside the dream. Realize deeper that your family and their suffering is just a dream you are hallucinating to keep yourself away from Infinite Love. What that is, is just fear of Infinite Love and formlessness. Once you are dead, your family will no longer exist.” The last sentence suggests that the world no longer exists when you die. This seems to be a very solipsistic view. Leo also regularly has talked about the universe as being some meta-being compared to the individual. This seems to go against solipsism, but all of Leo’s mentions of this that I’ve seen have come before that forum response and his latest video. Leo’s last Youtube video is seemingly even more solipsistic than the response above. He talks about there being no other perceptual bubbles than your own. Was this only said in order to guide people toward recognizing themselves as God and ultimately false information given for that purpose, or was it one of Leo’s insights?
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Hmmm, first time I've seen the name of this drug. Cymbalta. [I don't know the names of many drugs]. Looking it up it seems like a strong drug, and the half life is very short. And you've been on it for a while. Good luck on your journey as well! To update my situation from my posts 2 months ago in November. About 5 weeks ago I stopped SSRIs completely. Had serious withdrawal for about 1-2 weeks. Now I'm in the process of learning how to heal and deal with depression generally, in addition to lingering withdrawal of SSRI and living life without it. Do whatever you need or have to do, whether that means slow or fast. The only universal I've seen for depression is being proactive. But life's hard, progress doesn't come easy, and it only ever feels like the beginning. It is what it is, I knew for myself what I had to do. I felt incredibly degraded in settling for a passive mentality where I wasn't proactive. Especially when the SSRI had especially negative side effects for me. And obviously those repressed emotions of shame are still here, I just don't open to it much. I went to the funeral recently of one my best friends who commit suicide, so I'm still very stressed out and perturbed. But thankfully I'm still relatively fine.
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Polarity isn't something that can be put on from the outside by making yourself fit into stereotypes of masculinity and femininity. In fact, you can't make yourself more masculine or more feminine. They are fixed qualities. Everyone has an inborn masculine/feminine signature. Therefore, you can choose to be conscious of your natural signature and to express it authentically. Or you can repress it and try (unsuccessfully) to write something else over it. So, a man who is 80% masculine and 20% feminine will be most polarized to a woman who is 80% feminine and 20% masculine. A man who is 60% masculine and 40% feminine will be most polarized to a woman who is 60% feminine and 40% masculine. This is also true for polarization in same-sex couples. So, while it is true that opposites attract... you are thinking in incorrect ways about polarization. The only way to find your polar matches are to express what's actually there. If you try to cram yourself into some masculine stereotype, all you're going to do is reduce your own potency and ability to attract who you're most polarized to. It will dim your light and few moths will be drawn to it in an authentic way. Also, divorce rates were lower in the mid 1900s because it was a huge social stigma back then. It doesn't mean that people were happier. Once "no fault" divorce was allowed, the suicide rates for women dropped quite a bit. You can't determine the quality of a relationship based on longevity. And the divorce rate has NOTHING to do with how good relationships were back then. It's all about social expectations. And respect has little to do with what a person does for a living. Respect is derived from noticing someone who has virtues. Throw off the shackles of these stereotypes or forever feel alone having to perform a caricature of masculinity to be lovable.
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