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People do physically die from lack of relationship. Think of a baby who isnt given love, or an older person who lost their partner. No, the opinion is that because we are social beings, we need relationships to survive. Survival isn't just about life and death. Even someone who lives alone and never sees anyone ever, at one point they survived because of relationships. Also, you don't know that they experience "absolute bliss" all the time. They had to probably go through a lot of loneliness and still feel that way at times. You've taken extreme examples of humans that CAN survive without other humans and using that as a reason why relationships are not a must. Also, I'm not just talking about romantic or even close friendships...there are many different types and any kind of social interaction with another human is considered a relationship of some sort.

So your opinion is that because we live in a relative world, interpersonal relationships are a must? That would also mean that without them you would physically die or not be satisfied throughout your life. Why are there so many examples of the opposite in this case? And why are there examples of enlightened masters who live in a cave and experience absolute bliss? Do you feel empty and lonely without people around you? Again, my desire is not that I want to live in a cave or whatever alone till I die. It is about the answer of the question.

The topic of mental illness and how it relates to actualized.org has come more to the surface in a couple threads recently, and it was suggested that a thread dedicated to this discussion be created for the discussion to continue as another thread’s initial focus was derailed by this topic. Conditions which would warrant a “Yes” response to the poll include but are not limited to: PTSD, major depressive disorder, anxiety, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, borderline personality disorder, psychosis, eating disorders, serious addiction, etc. If you’re here, you should be familiar with the forum’s guidelines. This is not a place to treat mental illness or seek treatment. Potentially all spiritual practices and techniques with any degree of efficacy in raising consciousness can contribute negatively to the mental health and stability of certain individuals if certain circumstances are in place. Depending on what the poll reveals, I may be coming forward with more information describing the nature of why this happens, why these individuals may be drawn to actualized.org, and safe practices for dealing with at-risk individuals who might come here seeking guidance. If you wish to share details about your own story relating to mental illness & personal development or spirituality in this thread, feel free, but please remember this is not a place for treating such conditions and suggestions relating to treatment should remain minimal if not simply nonexistent entirely. Edit: Here are some interesting findings. Highly intelligent people appear to have a significantly stronger correlation with mental illness. Openness (a value and ultimately more-so a personality trait) tends to be much higher in those with psychotic mental illness than the general population. This value/trait is championed here for being crucial to this work. These are not the only contributing factors, but many people who could be expected to become deeply involved with actualized.org also are likely to have history of mental illness. In many cases, this work and content can have a positive effect on mental health if the right approach is taken. Many come in the attempt to transcend suffering, or their current spiritual attunement might be naturally high due to internal mechanisms related to transitioning from suffering to bliss. Intelligence & mental illness https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bad-news-for-the-highly-intelligent/ Personality traits & mental illness https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/genes-personality-mental-illness_n_58502045e4b0bd9c3dfed94c/amp

@Zeroguy Well that doesn't really answer anything tbh. It doesn't tell me how to change the dream, or how to imagine specific things. Like how do I imagine my crown chakra opened and bliss? Saying I imagine the crown chakra and I am imagining bliss doesn't really do anything

I've had thoughts similar to Sunny. Logically it follows. If this is just a dream and the truth is that reality is all good and we simply creating reality for our own experience then why not just die and create a new dream rather than wait 50 years etc because you will die eventually. Most people will live their entire lives without experiencing love, deep joy bliss etc, but when they die they will get all that and more. From their perspective what is the point of living and not just killing themselves? But at the same time, the guy left his 2 kids to grow up without a father. And if you read his posts there's a sense that he is parroting some spiritual tropes without an understanding of how they fit into reality at large.

@LastThursday thank you for the story, though I feel that you have been trying to get out of that well for a very long time now. And I have to ask myself if you actually know and know how to get enlightened. Though the how to is not easy to explain, once you have entered into it and that way of living once, twice or thrice, you have faith you can again. Actually I have removed so much of any identity that it is difficult not to become "enlightened". It's interesting because a year ago I started to understand within me which way I would have to live to be enlightened, the day sadhguru said enlightenment is the eisiest thing, instant realisation. Though at that time without being aware of it I had a lot of ego/emotions etc that had to be cleansed from my system, so for a moment I thought enlightenment way that endless bliss that I could feel for multiple hours, it was intense meditation and at that tome it was complete freedom aka short period of enlightenment. Then afterwards I understood living outside the well was no longer filled with bliss because that was just piled up emotions/desires that had to go through for me to get to the next phase. Staying in the system of society I gradually lost more and more of my identity and everything became clearer and clearer though I always knew since 12 months ago how to become enlightened. It's just something you have to do and there is no method for it. That's why I called what you are doing playing mind games. Because It actually in a sense won't get you closer to the way of an enlightened. Either you live completely freely or you play mind games with yourself, there is no inbetween. That's why I also wrote that I am doing the same. When the mind games start to get less and less what will be left will be more and more of the truth. When you are only left with the truth of your desires and wants and identity and the rest of it then you will naturally come to the place where I am right now. In almost constant touch with a new way of living, then it is easy, just to fly out of the well you thought you were stuck in, because actually you just didn't know how to fly, you were scared to fly, but now you know that all I have to do is jump with all my might and I'll be flying, so why stop when you have started, then continue to fly forever untill the day you wish for peace and thereby return to the earth.

I'm wondering how you all use psychedelics for spirituality. In my case I've tried 10 tabs of lsd (first time using psychedelics) combined with psilocybin music therapy playlists with an eye mask, mdma with the music playlist and eye mask, insufflating 45mg 5 meo freebase (went with 45mg instead of 30mg because I thought there may be a tolerance because immediately before i tried vaping 15mg but I didn't get a breakthrough dose because of technical problems, but my body did start moving on its own and I had this whiteness and rainbow in my vision), and also vaping 15mg 5 meo and achieved breakthrough. The vaping was just a very short version of my insufflation experience, and while it had the same general trip guidelines as the insuflation, it felt less impactful because it was so short. After it was over I only had an afterglow for an hour or so while the insufflation lasted days and some mild reactivations. In each case except the mdma i experienced what felt like eternity and the infinite rounds of death and rebirth then reaching the ego death state where I thought I was the creator and everyone was just part of my imaginings. That there was no one but me all along. I felt how silly and small all my problems and worrys were when it was just a spec in the vast length of time within infinity. After comming out of these experiences I always had an afterglow for a day or two where I was super compassionate and understanding towards others and I felt I could forgive people for their flaws because I could understand it came from deep fears and insecurities that all people have hidden within them. I felt like I understood that everyone is just alone in this universe and that they aquire ways of coping with this deep sense of dissatisfaction and insecurity towards life either through lust, greed, hatred, or pride. But after a week I'm usually back to normal and I wonder to myself what use was all that if it doesn't last? People here talk about how they see the oneness of the universe or that they know they are God or a part of God, but what exactly does that do for your life? I'm wondering how you guys use psychedelics besides just for the experience of oneness or bliss or whatever. Personally I'm just not attracted to those temporary states and am wondering if there's any reason to continue psychedelics for spirituality.

@Salvijus Yeah I understand you but it still has to come full circle into the realization that life is as well as much truth as anything else since there is no distinction made in actuality only mind might do it. But I somehow i do feel that if full 100% cessation forever would be possible then there would not be this here. If GOD could cease itself it would strangeloop into that it is full aware again if you get me ? Sounds a bit like theravadin(spelling?) Buddhism that stresses more or less "spiritual suicide " but it was not really the Buddhas teachings, anatta for example was more a statement meant : This is not my soul that is not my soul etc. Not that Self is unreal. The yellow robes theravadins teaches " this is all there ism" IE the psycho physical is all that there is. It comes as no suprise that thousands of years old teachings gets corrupted. Buddha was asked what to call his path or teaching and he said it would be called : Brahma jama or something like that, which means path to Brahman or Path to the Absolute. He taught liberation but not really spiritual suicide. He was more in line with Advaita Vedanta then not. But who cares right ?‍♂️ And on the psychedelics part even science says it shutdowns the default mode network more or less, IE ego process. But for that to happend you need a pretty high dose usually but some people can get it on 150 mcg lsd but not in my case. Ego death can be a tough nut to stomach when it happens as well but afterwards it is bliss more or less. It shows alot i feel for how the death process will unfold or atleast the beginning part of it. So it is more to learn to stomach to die. But 10 trips etc is not enough either to get a grasp on it. But psychedelics is not the end all be all either, contemplation/meditation/self inquiry is necessary imo. Cheers mate ?

Dealing with My Spiritual Ego: The Dangers of the Spiritual Ego and Why People Should Be Careful Some. of. yall. bout. to. be. real. mad. at. me. but. it. must. be. said. While I do get a lot of value out of spirituality and Actualized.org, there are things that I'm very hesitant and even skeptical about. This might look like me turning on this community or not aligning with the main values of this place but I honestly don't care. The two main things that I'm really hesitant about involve the dating advice here, especially for guys who can't get laid, and the enlightenment related things there. I'm not going to talk about the first one because I already wrote about that but I am going to focus on the second one. I suppose that I'm far from having any concerns about enlightenment and transcendence. I think I'm at a place where integration and building a solid foundation to build my life on in order to ground me is much more important. I think getting on the path to enlightenment prematurely can be incredibly dangerous without proper integration. Maybe I'll get to a point where I'll care more about existential and absolute truths years down the road or maybe I won't I don't know. But I know that if I ever get on that path, I want to be able to have some type of framework and some solid foundation because diving in head first without preparation is irresponsible for me and the people around me. There are some methods of getting there that I don't particularly agree with (if you do agree with it idc, no judgement I don't know what's best for everyone) and those include things like psychedelics, fasting, and isolating yourself from your loved ones and abandoning your hobbies and interests because all of your attention should be towards enlightenment. I feel that those things are rather extreme and are things that are definitely not for the vast majority of people. Also, I'm hesitant with drugs in general. I don't care if other people uses them granted they are doing so safely, responsibly, and legally but it's not for me especially when that advice is coming from a talking head on the internet. Upon recent events, this video by Adeptus Psychonautica came out. Some people are triggered because they think it makes actualized.org look bad but I think it's incredibly beneficial for people from the outside critiquing actualized.org because being super insular usually doesn't end well for a variety of reasons whether it be because of self bias all the way to cult like tendencies. I guess I'm not particularly attached to actualized.org and spirituality in general so when people critique these things, I don't feel particularly triggered because to me it's simply a source. I think it can be easy for people to get attached to some sources and some teachers because of the benefits that one gets from their content because it does have to do with those people's survival emotionally and psychologically. Especially if you get help in a vulnerable place and even if you get out of that vulnerable place, there is an attachment that forms, almost like a baby blanket after you grow up imo. I've had something like this come up for me once personally and even though I've never got to the point of needing to defend that source I got value from, it does sting because part of you identifies with the source and teachings therefore when someone critiques that source or teaching, it's like they're critiquing you. I went ahead and watched Adeptus's livestream and I feel like most of it was valid despite what other people may think on here. At no point did I feel that there was slander or that Actualized.org was being dragged through the mud. There are also points where Adeptus talks about the positives of the way Leo is handling different issues such as the phone call he had with Connor Murphey and one of the posts he made on the thread discussing recent events( Around 1:08:00-1:17:00). They talked about how Leo or any of the mods are trying to do anything malicious or create a cult but sometimes it seems like there is one forming around Leo anyway (basically collective ego). Overall, @AdeptusPsychonautica, I loved this video and I think It's important to contemplate on the darker aspects of spirituality and self improvement rather than idealizing it. Here are somethings that I found were really valuable that I want to include in my journal.: Around the 15 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about how these teachings aren't things that were made up by the community rather they are things that were taught by ancient teachers and how back then there were teachers who had communities but since it was in person, the teacher can gage were the students are at and how much they can handle. However, this aspect gets lost when its all on YouTube and on a forum when anyone regardless of how stable they are can access it. There aren't checks and balances. I think this is a very valid critique. It's not so much a direct attack on actualized.org but it's talking about how systemically there are problems and shortcomings. At the 20-24 minute mark, I can see why some people in this community can get triggered. They are critiquing how a lot of the followers think that they are a finished product and they are so enlightened and they egg each other on in order to keep up with the master and meanwhile the master is here talking about "i've gone deeper, I've become more awakened, I encountered a new level of awakening, you can't understand where I've been." And this challenges people to do more and more and more to where it can become compulsive especially because Leo talks in these absolute terms. Adeptus talks about how this might be Leo's personal truth and how he isn't saying Leo is lying or anything like that but it's the way he goes about it. This is honestly part of the reason why I avoid parts of this forum. I personally found that this type of thing doesn't help me and how this type of thing can become very compulsive, especially when it comes to Leo's fanboys. Around the 31 minute mark: If truth realization is not your Moby Dick to where you want to sacrifice everything, go for human adulthood meaning the integration of your spiritual, emotional, relational, physical self to be your most mature self. If you don't want to sacrifice everything, point your hunger toward integration and self actualization. Then in the 37 minute mark, Mackenzie talks about her experiences with nonduality how she felt all the love and light in the moment but then she came back down to just being human again and still having all of her problems that she had before the experience and how that can be discouraging and therefore cause people to go on these endless seeking journeys. I feel like this is where I'm at with my views on spirituality and self realization. I do care more about integration and building a fulfilling life than simply transcending everything and joining the void. Because based on some of the interactions I've had on this forum, teachers that I have learned about in history, and interacting with Leo himself is that even if they get an enlightenment experience, there is still plenty of human shit and blind spots you'll still have. And I think to go towards actualization is to deal with that in a slow consistent way rather than dealing with nonduality and transcendence. Around the 40 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about cleaning up her nihilism she encountered from spirituality and how she started building meaning in the form of close relationships, books, etc. to slowly start rebuilding her ego to care about existing. And then she realized that that was the process that she wanted all along and because she grew up in the shadow of new age culture where ego death, nonduality, mysticism, love and light are more a part of the conversation than anything, she thought that was the way to fix herself. But for her it was more along the lines of deep psychological work, embodiment, and healing that she realized she wanted more of a complete human experience instead of transcending the human experience because that was the thing sold to her as a way to deal with being here. In order to deal with being here, you don't have to leave. You just have to be present and accept the present moment instead of constantly feeling like you have to do more and more to reach a higher and higher state of consciousness in order to be at peace with the present moment. In spiritual communities its like there is always some place else to get to. It goes back to the 27 minute mark where Mackenzie talks about how there are two levels. There is truth realization and done. Once you reach done, that's it there is no more self discovery of lets go see what else I can find. Once you're enlightened, the seeker disappears so if you're seeking more experiences, you're still seeking which can get compulsive. I love this section. While I never became nihilistic, I've had a point where I got really attached to detaching. I journaled about this before and how it relates to my relationship to actualized.org. Basically it wasn't cute. I had a friend who was like "I don't think you even know who you are anymore" because I got caught in this cycle of even detaching from the healthier forms of my ego like my personality, my hobbies and interests etc. It wasn't this enlightenment thing that people often talk about here. And from then on I took a step back from spirituality and self help in order to be more gentle with myself so I can build myself back up again. This was the post I was talking about and here is the part that I think is most applicable to this post: Around the 47 minute mark: I also like how they discuss how people turn spiral dynamics is another dick measuring contest lol. Also Adeptus talks about how it's not about the model itself rather it's about how people use it to judge others and turn it into a dogma. Then Mackenzie talks about how it's important ot just see it as a model rather than THE TRUTH that explains and solves everything because that can be the indication that this is probably a defensive ego mechanism. Reminds me of something I wrote elsewhere in this journal: Around the 1 hour 3 minute mark: Mackenzie talks about how some teachings are vague or are gatekept because the highest teachings can be dangerous. Vague teachings will only make sense when people ponder it for a while and then when the reach a certain place in their journey it will make sense. And that bread crumbing your way to truth is part of a gradual process of direct experience where you figure it out on your own, therefore if something goes wrong, you can still back track. However with psychedelics, you're kind of thrown into the truth and then you may or may not be able or ready to deal with it which can be dangerous if someone doesn't have proper integration. Granted I've never experimented with psychedelics and I don't plan to any time soon, but I do 100% agree with the need for proper integration and the importance of pacing yourself in the journey to find truth. It reminds me of Leo's video on ego backlash where if there is a sudden change, even if it's for the better it can lead to a huge backlash because individually and collectively we want to aim towards homeostasis rather than growth because homeostasis feels safe while growth is a leap into the unknown. And these backlashes, even though they may look like a step back after taking a step forward, are important so that you don't do too much too soon and throw everything off and cause chaos while aiming for growth. The bigger the growth, the bigger the backlash. To me that's important to take into consideration because to me that means taking on too much too soon can yield to a huge backlash which can be pretty detrimental. And to me, it means that it's important to take your time on the journey and pace yourself so that you don't have a backlash that is so devastating that it takes away all of your progress. It simply isn't sustainable. That's something I also learned this year as I've been trying to take a more gentle, slow approach to discipline rather than a rigorous strict way to discipline. It goes back to that feeling of always wanting to get somewhere rather than appreciating where you are now. The spiritual ego wants to be enlightened as soon as possible and if it means taking a shit ton of LSD or 5meo, it will take that route over a slower and more sustainable way like through meditation, self-inquiry, and working on yourself in general. I don't think there is anything wrong with those substances and that there is a time and place for them but when you have a spiritual ego that wants to get more and more enlightenment experiences that last longer and longer and go deeper and deeper, I can see how that can turn very dysfunctional to where someone might contemplate on ending their life so that they are in that state of bliss forever. 1:21:00: "What are things about yourself that you are trying to avoid by transcending that? That's where to start. What are you trying to transcend, why are you so fucking eager to transcend it." I just really like this part. I think a lot of people need to contemplate this tbh and I think this is a good quote to end this post at.

@BipolarGrowth You know, I used to feel like that a few months ago when learning about all this spiritual stuff. I used to think that if I have way more understanding than 99.99% of the people, then it's as though I've "lost" the journey for discovering those things on my own at a slower pace. I had notions that it's like forcing myself to become "old" and skip on life and just reach to the end. After looking into it deeper and "upping" my awareness levels I see that this is EXACTLY what I need to pursue, and that there is no "too early" or "rushing it". Rather than skipping on life it feels more like going deeper in life. It feels more like slowing the time rather than accelerating it. And above all I can experience vastly what's happening in the moment. I also used to think that enlightenment and spiritual work meant that at one point all the feelings I'll feel are joy, bliss and calmness, which sounded ok, but not really rich so there was some cognitive dissonance. I tried suppressing "negative" emotions. But in general I feel like everyone goes through similar phases of understanding spirituality in more depth. In my current state my understanding is that spirituality means the pursuit of real freedom. Freedom from attachment, freedom to feel all emotions (even the "negative"), freedom to think without suppressing. But also freedom to move between my lower and higher self, consciousness and unconsciousness.

It’s an RPG man. We can’t tell you how to build your character. And yes, a non-character is still a type of role ? But more seriously, there are gifts in this life worth attaching to. There is not one perfect state, occurrence, or achievement. If you want to have no attachments, do so. Become fully enlightened. Transcend suffering. But just remember, once you leave the realm of suffering, you might find that you acted like a kid who wanted to grow up so, so badly and then later wishes he could return to the innocence, ignorance, and bliss of the “limited.”

It's only after my 4th what I call a 'interactive hallucination' that I've finally considered that this may have something to do with higher levels of consciousness, but I'm not sure, and that's why I'm writing this post. Hallucination may not be the correct term but bear with me. Background: 26 now, been doing the whole personal development stuff since 17 and overall live a peaceful life, apart from one main thing that's been knocking on my door which is the call to intimacy. Hallucination 1 I experienced my first one about 1.5 years ago after waking up a little hungover and drowsy. I lost my notes on it but from what I recall, it was lucid-dream-like but not a lucid dream. It had a dreamy feel to it. I was in a room, without my body, a point of consciousness, and I got sucked into a point across the side of the room that I recognized as DMT dust. There was a profound message that my Dad was hyper-committed to my Mum because of love, in spite of the hardships of caring for someone with heavy mental illness. This has always scared me, but I understood why Dad stuck around after that experience. I woke up in a shock which I can describe as neither good or bad. I had 2-3 more between then and now, spaced about 6 months apart. Hallucination 2 Another one during my 6-months of my stint of unconditional love outpouring and absolute joy! I was drowsy in the afternoon, and in minutes I entered this sleep-paralysis-like state and I started seeing clear psychedelic geometry, and my body was merging with everything other than my body! Buzzing sounds... This is why I describe these experiences as interactive. They involve more than just seeing something. It typically involves the body merging with the outside, and I'm completely awake, yet kind of in a dream space and my body is immobile. It also has a spiritual presence to the experience, unlike previous sleep-paralysis experiences I've had when I was a young teenager, they had nightmarish themes. Hallucination 3 (today) Context: Around 2pm, in bed on a work break Journal entry: Was feeling tired, wasn't sure why but biggest suspect was the amounts of fat I'm eating on a non-keto diet. The 2 giant strips of bacon, 4 eggs, and butter I had this morning. Anyway... Shit got interesting... I was listening to Leo from Actualized.org talk about Jordan Peterson. Just 5-minutes-ish in and suddenly I found myself with my body paralyzed, fixed in place. The voice of Leo in the background. Conscious. Aware. I heard a continuous stream in the background, something that was similar to the 'bye woody' scene in toy story, that echooey 'byyyyeeeeeeeee wooooooooooooddyyy' with a bit of chime, ring and spin. Subtle. I saw blackness. I felt my body on it's side, slowly beginning to automatically penetrate. There was a feeling that this is all my body wanted to do. It was begging for it. Maybe my minds projection, but nonetheless that was what was happening. Automatic penetration. The dick wants to penetrate a woman. ***I was not using my will to do this, it was automatically happening, it was as if I was an observer of it yet feeling it at the same time Maybe the mind speaking again, but whilst and upon awakening from this experience, it's clear to me that penetration into a woman where I'm truly aware and loving, is what needs to happen to break through. ***note - this has been a recurring theme for a long time now, including on psychedelic experiences, to get intimate with a woman - it's been a long time and I often avoid it because I find it more comfortable to do things on my own It feels like there is something to break through. I felt my body merging with everything outside of me. At one point I saw visuals. Like a blurry painting right in the centre of my vision, taking up 15% of the composition. The rest black. It's a divine space. Common themes: Happens when I'm drowsy in the afternoon Lasts no more than 5 minutes Pretty clear visions Peripheral is always black Feel completely conscious Body immobile Ringing, buzzing, or feint spiritual ambient music A slight 'holiness' feel to the experience Merging of the body with the environment outside of it This is probably the biggest reason I feel this isn't an ordinary dream, lucid dream, sleep-paralysis, or hypnagogic experience - it's so potent and lines up with many accounts of experienced meditators - I can best describe it as 'merging with the universe' I feel like if this merging were to get any stronger, I would become everything and completely engulfed in euphoric bliss, it feels amazing, although I don't feel there would be 'me' anymore in my body, just one giant all encompassing infinity - I don't really have the words Thoughts on what I'm experiencing?

Yes, that's actually one type of "meditation" I enjoy doing. Like sitting, or laying on my back and not caring about anything, once I reach that state of being, I actually feel what you could call contentment, without reaching profound meditative states. @Tim Ho The heaven awakening I had is not really a metaphysical truth, but more like a change in perspective + no-ego state. Not as incredible as Kundalini bliss or nothingness. Let's hope My head will show itself to me I also stopped torturing myself with SDS meditation, cold water showers etc, because I have a notion, that spirituality is a path made out of suffering, for it to be transcended, which is a very unhealthy perspective on life. I am aware, that once I let go of strong physical pain, I enter a state of equanimity, but that's harder for sneaky stuff, and I often don't see the point of that. @Gianna I don't only watch Leo's videos, I'm also in shinzen young's fb community, but I just love this forum too much. I am sorry you feel that way. It's really hard to remember the highs, when we are low.

What happened here speaks to the depth of these teachings. I believe this is why someone like Peter Ralston considers himself a "facilitator" (specifically not a teacher) and is incredibly cheeky, and at times, totally ambiguous with his communications about the deepest truths. This is why someone like Shinzen Young is so strict about teaching about mindfulness and not the philosophical implications of what the practice reveals. I believe this is why Gurus, Zen masters, etc., have a reputation of intentionally holding back how much they're willing to share with their students. If the student is not ready the results of repeatedly hearing these types of teachings can be disastrous. Yet on the other hand, even if someone where not psychologically ready to hear, "life is a dream, you are God, you were never born, you'll never die, your entire self and life is imagination, etc." I do not think the results would be suicide or self harm. At worst, someone may be plunged into an existential depression and at best, it could be the shell shock they needed to hear to begin their spiritual journey. For those with genuine mental illness, it doesn't really matter what the trigger is. It could be radical non-dual teachings, or it could be utterly self-derived delusional thinking. I do think there is inherent risk with the way Actualized.org has so successfully marketed itself across the internet, and the unintentional consequences that could result from these utterly radical ideas becoming so mainstream. However, I think there is a deeper risk with these teachings not becoming mainstream. Humanity is at an inflection point with our level of technological power; we are so severely lacking in a mature, compassionate, wise level of self-understanding. While these teachings may be utterly radical, and anti-thetical to the modern world's way of thinking, and therefore poses a certain level of risk, they are honest and authentic to one's direct experience of who and what they are. This type of radical self honesty is what the world is going to need if we are going to effectively face the growing number of existential threats on the horizon (increases in extreme weather events, rising sea levels, pollution of the oceans, world wide mass extinction, destruction of the rain forests, artificial intelligence, job loss as a result of artificial intelligence, gene editing, 3d printing, surveillance capitalism, virtual reality...) In essence, it seems that what Actualized.org has done with advanced spiritual teachings may not be ideal for the individual in every case, but given the need of these models and ideas for the collective development of the world, it seems the collective impact of Leo's work outweigh's the inherent risk for any given individual. That's my view. As is explicitly specified in the forum guidelines, this work is not for those with mental illness. Sometimes mental illness does not present itself as depression, but can at times present itself as delusional thoughts and feelings of connection and bliss. There are many flavors and forms of mental illness. It would be unreasonable to expect that moderators or Leo to have the capacity to monitor for this type of stuff. We are a community that exchanges ideas and communications, not a professional mental health service. Of course if the signs present themselves it is paramount that we take the necessary steps to help the individual. I think this applies for all of us, not simply mods. But again, mental health services is not the function, nor was ever the intention, of this forum. It was truly a tragedy with what happened with SoonHie. It's affected me more deeply than I thought it would. I have no words for his family and loved ones other than I'm sorry for what has happened, and I'm sorry you have to continue without him. There are no words that can fill that void. May his soul rest easy and may you all feel and heal deeply. With love.

@Holygrail I think there are things that are objectively wholesome and unwholesome. Wholesome things produce wholesome mindstates like joy, bliss, compassion and contentment, while unwholesome things produce unwholesome mindstates like greed, hatred, and lust. While we should develop compassion towards all things, even those that cause revulsion, I think its important to know the difference and not just accept everything as good. If something is ugly and repulsive we should know it as such, but not let it affect our own wholesome mindstates.

@RMQualtrough well without ego you cannot identify with suffering. This is the ultimate state in Buddhism. I want to make an end of suffering. Since I have access to some psychedelics atm I was curious as to if it would help the process or is it just a temporary state it invokes. Because I don't use them in a recreational sense, I just wonder how useful they are on the path. From what it seems like, the most effective way is to make sure to integrate new routines after the trip while you still have that "reset" of the nervous system that psychedelics give you. So whatever you take away from the trip, you need to integrate it into your life or you just fall back to old patterns and the trip will just be a "memory." For me, I don't feel too intimidated by any fearful experience that can arise, I mainly worry if there's any physiological damage that can be done, like I balancing neurochemicals or creating some kind of disturbance in energy flow of the body. Some psychics say it creates energetic blockages some say it frees blockages so who knows. My 5 meo trip was suffering, but the key is to surrender and just accept what will happen, with the knowledge that no real harm will come to you. I think if you have this mindset the bad part of the trip will not last long and you'll be sucked into that bliss oneness state. Some people jump straight into that bliss state without touching the fear part. But even if you do experience the fear part, if you understand it wasnt "real" then you recover pretty fast. It's all about acceptance of the experience that determines a good or bad trip I think. If you try to resist wherever it's taking you, it will create more and more bad feelings. If you can just flow with the experience and just accept it as an experience, it'll take you to good states. I recently read the psychedelic experience by Tim leary and the way he explains his method for using lsd is pretty good. Basically if you try to resist where it's taking you, you will encounter more hardships, but if you just surrender to the experience, it will generally guide you into those bliss states.

Yes our awakenings sound similar and the key here and maybe I didn't point this out earlier but there is a shift in identity. As it is realized there is no self there is a shift in consciousness to identifying with Consciousness itself. You become aware that you are awareness itself. Which is God. Now the realization that as Consciousness I was completely Infinite came later. But in this awakening there was Divinity/Bliss it was Pure Consciousness. So for me Infinity was a different awakening as was Nothingness. The body can't contain Infinity so that awakening was something else. Abiding in non-dual awareness later to me is something that continues to deepen over time but yes there is the ability to shift Consciousness now to a meta level although I do not always abide in this 24/7. But this isn't the same as abiding in an Infinite state of Consciousness have to agree with Leo there. It does not take away from someone being awake. It could be here we are also just getting caught up in language. But as I am typing this to you I am imagining you are a real being or ie imagining you into existence as imagination is reality - and therefore my Consciousness is shifted into dual gear. About that- the final awakening for me here was what i call Oneness (the collapse of self/other) - it came about a month after all the rest. This too was a mystical expanded state of consciousness in which I became directly conscious that I was completely alone as God and all of this was being held within my Consciousness not out there somewhere but within my Mind as God. All beings were me. All creatures were me, etc. This was probably the single most ultimate mindfuck and the most difficult to accept. But you cannot run from it. You cannot hide from it. All other are no different than the the thought of a unicorn you may have. And it is laid bare before your eyes because your mind has expanded so much. This...this one especially is an extremely profound awakening you can have.

My pleasure! I don't think I contribute anything tbh I never claim to be teaching anything I just like sharing for the sake of it. the only concern with going to that Vipassana retreat was because I was still going through unfoldment after the Big Bang breakthrough, and during that time I would shift into psychedelic-like states or having crazy out of body experiences before I fall asleep, and I read that during retreats one can easily enter realms and either temporarily or permanently "stuck" with entities lol. And I'm just not too into magical realms lol. There was no fear of self annihilation. I do enjoy every moment to the fullest. You pretty much go back to being a child playing in a sand box while doing every day tasks. It's kind of like being on acid 24 7 but in a way it's even deeper because it isn't exactly a mind blowing experience per se, since both the mind and the experiencer are transcend hehehhe. Remind you that all experiences or mood shifts that come with awakening are mostly just the by product of Realization, not everyone who's awakened experience cosmic bliss 24 7 lol don't let that fool you. Equanimity is transcends both bliss and none-bliszzzz sure there can be thoughts, they're just in equal footing with all other sensations arising in the field like birds chirping or winds blowing. Way way less self voice in the head. But even this isn't an indicator of awakening. Some people have more thoughts after no self, you're simply dis-identified from them is all.

If the whole of your spiritual work is using psychedelics, then yes they are temporary states and nothing more. However, if you have a grounded, rigorous spiritual practice such as contemplation/meditation 1+ hours per day, these experiences slowly start to soak in at extremely subtle levels of your mind and even body. Sometimes not so subtle. For example, I've done enormous amounts of healing work using psilocybin mushrooms. If I had the position that all of those mushroom trips were just useless temporary states, I would be missing the fact that those experiences helped open my mind up to many, MANY, hidden layers of trauma, attachment, and other unconscious aspects of my mind and further, helped facilitate a space wherein I was able to integrate and heal from these different unconscious wounds. So while it's true those states are long gone, their effects are actually what is generating my present moment experience. The healing work is undeniable. More generally speaking, repeatedly accessing these higher states on psychedelics can be thought of as planting seeds. For sure the state will come and go, but as we meditate, we can start to become sensitive to the fact that these experiences do leave energetic traces deep within our being. These traces, or "seeds", can then later be accessed in their own way through the process of manual practice. We can think of manual practices as providing the nutrients, the sunlight, and the water for the blossoming of these powerful experiences into our every day, lived experience. This is not to say that we will be tripping balls 24/7 in our grounded, sober state of consciousness. Yet we will begin to see how these 'higher frequency' feelings of bliss, love, peace, joy, gratitude, kindness, expansiveness are increasingly available while sober. Merely by accessing them at deep levels allows us to more easily access them while sober, yet this takes genuine work (i.e. meditation practice) to access. On the other hand, we will also begin to find the underlying unity between profound mystical states, and the mundane sober state such that we no longer need to be tripping balls to feel a deep oneness, a deep unity with all things. We realize this moment is none other than a complete, perfect expression in and of itself, needing nothing else. That perfection we find with all things while blasted off on a trip begins to ground itself across any and all states through the systematic training provided by manual practices like meditation. The trap of never using psychedelics is that we may very easily start to form blind spots within our own minds, with our spiritual practices, self-deception can run more rampant and we may begin to bullshit ourselves with how "spiritually developed" we think we are. The trap of misusing psychedelics is that we get caught on a hamster wheel of always feeling like we need to introduce an exogenic substance to the body in order to deeply understand and experience the unity of all things, accessing higher frequency states/God. The most holistic approach would be to keep using these substances with deep reverence, appreciation, curiosity, and humility while also grounding their use through manual practices like meditation. Eventually one comes to see the distinction between tripping and not tripping is imaginary, and therefore all one needs to do is see clearly into experience to see the truth across any and all states. As one deepens their meditation practice, the psychedelic experience begins to deepen as well. As one deepens in their psychedelic experiences, one's meditation practice will deepen as well. They are absurdly synergistic when both are practiced with diligence and intelligence.

More opposite direction. Awakening is profound but subject object, with awakening as the object or experience of the one which awakens, wether referring to self, no self, God, Being, etc. God consciousness is an awakening experience for example, and isn’t as purified so to speak re subject object, or, is a right of passage if you will back to not knowing. Analogously imagine someone experiencing thought attachment and negative psychology being told they are state free or state less no mind bliss. The gap makes it sound like a full circle back to regular old nonsense. A thought (something known) about won’t do, and direct experience won’t do. Aka Mu. The terms ‘not knowing’, or ‘mu’ even, are like the term sun, compared to being the sun, and not knowing what a sun is.

I do not disagree with this. If all you do is Vipassana without any other practices this can indeed be a trap. This is why I look at Vipassana as only one of many methods, but the same could be true if you only apply the "Unified Mind" methods without seeing the nature of sensations. The reason why I dissect the thing from the Vipassana/sensation is because most of the people on this board are already very familiar with the other side of the coin. During my big bang Realization/Kundalini Awakenings etc, there is WAY more similarity to my psychedelic trips than the insights and experiences i got from just dissecting sensations, which is the result of the combination of self inquiry, vipassana, psychedelics over the last 7 years. If you were to put a neutral frank yang inside my 5meo breakthroughs vs the Big Bang event, he would think he was tripping on 5meo DMT or a heroic dose of acid instead of gotten to that space through Vipassana alone. The Realization of Infinity does seem to be missing in many Vipasanna practitioners, who rarely speak about the holistic and Cosmic experiences and Realizations of "Strange Loops/Universe Eating Itself/Cosmic Bliss", etc and are heavily more on the dry, "No-Mind/Emptiness" side of things. Most Realized beings are lean towards one side of the equation, very few are totally unified in Infinity and Nothingness. My argument here is that if you take just one side to the extreme you'll loop back on the other side. So the most effective approach is to slice the cat from all angles.

Devotion is a very powerful path westerners usually can’t relate to. That said... STAY AWAY FROM HARE KRISHNAS. IT IS A CULT. All because you can have powerful experiences under a certain group or organization doesn’t mean it isn’t a cult. Members of organizations like Isis have genuine powerful spiritual and even satori like experiences and are in rapturous bliss states when they do what they do. Hare Krishnas are a cult and as far as I can tell, a deluded one by and large. The founder was clearly enlightened and clearly nuts. Some of those guys seemed to have something going on but there’s plenty of documentation regarding the abuses that have gone on in that organization. I highly recommend you stay away from them. When an asshole gets enlightened all you get is an enlightened asshole. Some guys with cults, and they are a cult.

The Day of the Dragon by Greg Margolis Part I If The Initiate had to classify a moment as the most challenging he ever experienced, it would be the morning The Dragon appeared in The Forbidden City. The evening before, the initiate completed the last in a series of three initiations that were conducted by his master. The initiate practiced meditation throughout the night. By the time the first rays of sunshine crept up the eastern horizon, his master came to the main training field. Master: How are you feeling? Initiate: I’m scared, master. Master: I’d consider you a fool if you weren’t. If you had answered any differently I would have kicked you out of the initiation and had you deported from China. Initiate: Will he come? The master pondered this. Meanwhile, The initiate felt his heartbeat stabilizing and his breathing regulated. Master: One never knows. Stillness. Initiate: Today? Master: Yes. Initiate: 10 O’clock? Master: Yes. Initiate: AM? Master: 10:03. Initiate: Thank you, master. Master: How good is your Kung Fu? The Initiate remains silent. Master: Ah! He who speaks, does not know. He who knows, does not speak. I’m sure you’re masterful. The Dragon won’t manifest himself unless one is ready for him. Initiate: Am I ready? Master: Not yet. If you were, he’d be here with us right now. Initiate: It’s the fourth initiation, isn’t it? The master smiled. Master: Yes. Initiate: You never told me there were more than three. Master: True. Initiate: Why not? Master: I didn’t know there were more. Initiate: How can you not know? You’re the master. Master: Right, I’m a master. Not a prophet. Initiate: Are there prophets? Master: Oh, but of course! The initiate's Chi flows through his meridians. Initiate: Where are they? Master: They’re amongst us. Undercover. Initiate: Why undercover? Master: The spiritual level of most humans on earth is not sufficient for them to understand the truth. Not yet, anyway. Initiate: The Dragon… is he one of them? Master: No. He is something else. Initiate: What is he, master? Master: He’s not a WHAT, Chang. He’s a WHO. Initiate: Who is he, then? Master: An Over Soul. Initiate: What is that mean? Master: He is one of 72 Over Souls. A divine spirit that enters the universe and envelops all human souls. Initiate: Enters from WHERE? Master: The Realm of the Absolute. Initiate: He’s immortal, isn’t he? Master: He’ll live as long as he desires. Initiate: Have YOU ever met him, master? Master: Yes. A long time ago. I wonder. Initiate: You told me there IS no time. Master: I did. Initiate: And now you say “Long time AGO”. Since there is no PAST, you just contradicted yourself. Master: Contradiction is impossible. Initiate: Explain. Master: Let's leave the specifics of your doubts aside for a moment and look rather at what is going on behind the scenes. Do you know the future? Initiate: No. Master: Do you have any idea at ALL about what will happen in the future? nitiate: No idea at all. Master: Do you feel like you have any CONTROL over the future? Initiate: No control whatsoever. Master: Uncertainty is bliss. It stimulates The Chi. You just felt it, didn’t you? Their eyes met. The Initiate smiled. Initiate: Yes! Master: You just completed the fourth Initiation. Initiate: So what do we do now? Master: We don’t DO anything. We BE. Initiate: Right. Stillness. Initiate: How many initiations are there? Master: An infinite number. Chi. Initiate: It’s never ENDS? Master: Never. Initiate: So does this mean then that you are, still, an initiate yourself? Master: Correct. Shi Zen. Initiate: How many initiations have YOU completed? Master: Sixteen. Initiate: After which one you were ordained with the title “Master”? Master: After my eighth. Initiate: So I have four more to go. Master: That is a fair observation. Initiate: But not perfect? Master: Every master who ever lived became a master at different stages in their training. Let’s revisit. Come with me. The initiate exited his mediation and followed his master. *** Master: Kung Fu Initiation One: Basic Movements and Body Alignments Beginning students study until they are competent in the basic movements and body alignments. The overwhelming majority of China’s active Kung Fu instructors belong in this category. Kung Fu Initiation Two: Intensive Study Junior students study regularly for at least five years with a master and actively practice for at least ten years. Their advancement to the next initiation depends on natural talent, hard work and other factors. Kung Fu Initiation Three: Study Directly with a Master Senior students take classes with a master several days a week—if not daily—for at least a decade. You, my friend, completed that one yesterday. Kung Fu Initiation Four: Disciples of the Sacred Oath Masters are the formal disciples of The Lineage Holders. They receive the deepest and most secretive levels of specialized knowledge available in Kung Fu. Masters can be truly exceptional at some but not necessarily at all aspects of Kung Fu. Kung Fu Initiation Five: Lineage Holder Lineage Holders are Masters who over time are chosen and profoundly trained in the entire tradition by the previous Lineage Holder. To hold ALL - not only selected parts - of the tradition. Although some masters are issuing teaching credentials to students who passed instructor trainings, the vast majority of Kung Fu teachers lack such credentials, much less the authority to contrive them. Initiate: Are you a lineage holder? Master: Yes. I have been a lineage holder for 25 years. Initiate: How old are you, master? Master: Ninety-three. End of Part I

It's when Leo says- Once you realize you are God, and are able to construct anything, even a billion dollars, you'd get bored with it, and would want to set limitations and make it a challenge, which is the life I'm living right now. So, what I grasped was, there is nothing to pursue. I am where I decided to be. So, if I pursue god realization, I'd be back again here living life, and then wanting to pursue god realization again, ad infinitum. I feel like knowing this, is a curse, and ignorance might be bliss. Then again. I don't know what to do anymore. What I lack, is that there is no inner compass active in me, which would give me hints, about what to do next. I am stuck with reasoning, and it doesn't go very far.

This is the dilemma with teaching advanced insights. On the one hand, they can make it a lot more likely that the seeker will get that awakening too, in that way they are very useful for seekers. But the problem is, almost every enlightenment insight/awakening is depressive for the ego. It's not the insight itself but the ego's misinterpretation and self bias. If someone has an awakening which is accompanied with ego death, and thus sees the awakening without biased lenses, it will be blissful and perfect. But if someone thinks about that same insight without having gone through the surrender and ego death ,which would be necessary to have that actual insight/awakening yourself, this insight is bound to be misinterpreted and depressive for the ego. Look at it this way: If any enlightenment insight makes you depressed, then that is a sign that you understand something wrongly. The depression is not because Reality is inherently depressive, but because you don't understand Reality yet, and believe it to be different than it is. If you were to have a complete awakening and reallly understood the full picture, you would be in bliss and not depression. Reality is Infinite Love. If an enlightenment insight makes you depressed, dismiss the insight and remind yourself of Ininite Love.