New War In Israel / Gaza

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

25 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

John Mearsheimer: Israel is choosing 'apartheid' or 'ethnic cleansing' | The Bottom Line - YouTube

If you want to see an objective take on this conflict.

 

   Speaking of him:

 

[hundreth]

4 hours ago, zazen said:

The thinking seems to be that Palestinians, in particular Gazans can only be offered a state once they show they are 'developed' enough or 'behave' good enough like Pavlovs dog to be given one.  So what did the Palestinians in the West Bank who 'behaved' better and 'developed' relatively more than their Gazan counterparts get? Were they rewarded even the most fundamental rights or the beginnings of any sovereignty for their good behaviour?

Israel had its chance to show them they mean peace and good faith - but they failed. Instead they got settlement expansion and settler violence increasing to such degrees that any sovereignty becomes almost impossible. So why would Gazan's think they would get something by behaving and developing if on the contrary when they look over to the West Bank they see a clear indication that 'behaving and developing' leads to nothing except the opposite.

In fact, Bibi's view was that the existence of Hamas works in their favour by creating a divide among Palestinians and de-legitimising the Palestinian cause by them being more extreme - and that's exactly how its been used. The conditions Palestinians are put under is extreme which causes them to radicalise, then when they radicalise the excuse is used that they are too radical to be given a state. 

 

I don't believe anyone actually feels the way you're framing it. There are some Israelis for whom there are no conditions which warrant the Palestinians gaining sovereignty. I'm not one of them.

There are others who want to see the Palestinians doing well. When they're doing well, the focus on retribution, hate, anger and violence greatly lessens. Trust is built over time. 

Of course the Israelis have their own side in this to play in terms of a culture and leadership shift on their ends. It feels like you're only able to hold one viewpoint at once. Either all of the responsibility must be placed on the Palestinians, or all of it must be placed on the Israelis. Why are they mutually exclusive?

It's perfectly fine to want to see internal change from both sides. 

[Raze]

 

[lina]

IDF bulldozed displaced wounded civilians... it's becoming more horrifying and gruesome day by day in front of the whole world eyes. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by lina

[jaylimix]

@lina How Pales reacted to incoming bulldozers. 

 

[Nivsch]

On 9.11.2023 at 10:07 PM, DawnC said:

I think that these points are routed in two misconceptions.

Essentially, I think that you believe that the root cause of Palestinian aggression is the situation with Israel, and you think Israel has the power to solve it due to their position of strength. I don't think that's true at all. First of all, you have to consider the possibility that Palestinian society and leadership don't want peace and they don't want anything that will maintain the state of Israel. Westerners have difficulty grasping this, but the reality is that some cultures actually embrace violence and some societies actually value war and even the killing of the innocent. Westerners tend to think that 'everybody just wants to have peace' or 'everybody is like us because we are all human.' This is a fundamental misconception. Yes, we are all human. So was Stalin, and so was Saddam Hussein. The Mongols and Nazis were also human. That doesn't mean that they didn't value genocide or brutal raiding and territorial expansion.

The second thing is, that I know it makes sense to claim that Israel's control radicalizes them, and if Israel didn't control them, this wouldn't happen. I just don't think that's entirely true. And I think there is nothing worse for Palestinian society than self-governing. The situation will deteriorate into something like what happened in Syria or Yemen. Take a look for example at Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. The Palestinian society is no different (in fact, it's worse). Consider also the internal conflict between Hamas and the PLO in 2006. The events of the past 100 years suggest that this is a deeply ingrained aspect of Palestinian society. They exhibit violent behavior, not just towards Israel but towards themselves. And this pattern persists no matter what happens with Israel. Regardless of whether Israel had a state or not, regardless if in was during the occupation or not, before and after Israel left Gaza. This violent mentality has persisted. I think there is nothing that Israel can do, within the realm of reason that will not result in their own existential serious risk, which would change this fundamental issue. I'm not saying it can't change, but there is no indication from the past century that this change is foreseeable. Israel can make wise or unwise policy choices, but the power to fundamentally resolve this issue is beyond their reach. 

The second misconception is the belief that understanding someone's perspective implies the need to appease them. I can understand why Germany descended into Nazism after WWI. The Treaty of Versailles humiliated them, there were dire economic conditions, and some other factors. But that doesn't mean their regime wasn't utterly barbaric and didn't need to be dealt with using force. You see, when someone is at your door with a rifle, intent on brutally killing you and your family, you kill them. Afterwards you can investigate if he had a difficult childhood. That is what any reasonable, life-cherishing actor would do.

Some more specific points:

1.I understand what you're saying. But historically, it wasn't always the case. Jews endured a Holocaust and did not commit such atrocities systematically. 

2. + 3. Israelis have endured ongoing terror attacks since the establishment of their state, including many suicide bombings and tens of thousands of rockets targeted at the civilian population over the years (imagine growing up with the constant sound of rocket alarms). Terrorism has a profound effect on a society (consider 9/11 as an extreme example). For many years, their state also faced a genuine survival challenge. This is not a walk in the park, and it profoundly impacts a society. In any case, in reality, they are actually much less ruthless (much much less) and much more inclined towards seeking peace (much much more). This is not solely a consequence of the power imbalance btw. These differing moral standards were present before 1948.

4. I don't see it that way because I believe that historical decisions made by the Palestinians have led to the current situation, making it nearly unavoidable. In my view, a society that initiated war and subsequently lost it is not in a position to dictate the terms. And when they continue with violence, they shouldn't be viewed as the victims (and thus I don't view the Israelis as the aggressors). 

Anyway, of course I hold Israel to a higher standard because it is a liberal democracy. But I understand the very difficult military situation they are facing, and I recognize Hamas's manipulation of numbers and civilian statistics, as well as militant tactics that deliberately endanger civilians. I also acknowledge that in any conflict, atrocities unfortunately occur. In relative terms, I believe Israel is acting reasonably. They are not intentionally targeting civilians. They are allowing them to evacuate. And yes, they are determined to neutralize Hamas's militant capabilities and secure the release of their hostages. This is war, and it's not a pleasant situation.

+1 ❤

I know this is from a month ago but this must be jumped to the top again and get more credit.

By DawnC 🌅 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

 

[StarStruck]

If any other country would have done this, there would be a massive outrage

Edited December 17, 2023 by StarStruck

[Lila9]

 

[Nivsch]

31 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

 

Exactly. They don't want to ask what most Gazans think because they feel uncomfortable to face the answer.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

26 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

If any other country would have done this, there would be a massive outrage

But without this army attendance in the west bank, 7.10 would be considered a tiny event.

And why the tree behind him so early? He can't wait couple of more days? This is not fair I also want to celebrate this holiday.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

17 hours ago, hundreth said:

I don't believe anyone actually feels the way you're framing it. There are some Israelis for whom there are no conditions which warrant the Palestinians gaining sovereignty. I'm not one of them.

There are others who want to see the Palestinians doing well. When they're doing well, the focus on retribution, hate, anger and violence greatly lessens. Trust is built over time. 

Of course the Israelis have their own side in this to play in terms of a culture and leadership shift on their ends. It feels like you're only able to hold one viewpoint at once. Either all of the responsibility must be placed on the Palestinians, or all of it must be placed on the Israelis. Why are they mutually exclusive?

It's perfectly fine to want to see internal change from both sides. 

 

I agree both sides need to change no doubt. But putting them in certain conditions will change them for the worse rather than the better. During this whole time ‘waiting’ for them to change and build themselves under certain conditions they’re seeing what could be their future state being eaten away at rapid pace. And this isn’t just centrist liberal minded settlers but far right orthodox ones who are now armed and will be impossible to re-settle. This segment of the Israeli population will also make up a third of the population (due to higher birth rate) only shifting Israel more right in the years to come whilst the US population (youth) are shifting their support away from Israel at the same time - the two are diverging in opposite direction. 

 Are we expecting them to develop to stage green or something before giving them a state - by then it would be full of settlers nullifying the whole thing. It’s more on the abuser to win the trust of the one he’s abusing - can we expect the person being abused to not resist and ‘develop’ to a point to stop being abused or is it the inalienable right of the abused to stop the abuse first? 

The same logic that says ‘when we are attacked (October 7th) we retaliate in self defense and don’t look to assess the morality or the casualties of it’ can be applied to the Palestinians. October 7th will be etched in the mind of Israelis as a terrifying day, but 7 terrifying and dehumanising decades are etched in the mind of Palestinians - not just a day but the date x decades. And sure, for Jews they have been unjustly prosecuted in the worst of ways for hundreds of years and deserve a safe place and state of their own - just not at the expense of others, especially not the ones who didn’t inflict that suffering on them. Palestinians shouldn’t be paying the blood price for the sins of others who persecuted the Jews.

Israel has adopted a strategy of defense which commits atrocities to those that offered to protect them from atrocities. They mine their past traumatic history and in doing so and living amongst that dark past through victimhood re-traumatise others in the present day. Israel is obsessed with its right to self defence but doesn’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress.

You may not frame the situation as Israel being the abuser but all relevant bodies and states of the world refer to it as such - human rights groups and even states that are allies with Israel acknowledge occupation and apartheid - abuses to the spirit and dignity of man.

Edited December 17, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

And why the tree behind him so early? He can't wait couple of more days? This is not fair I also want to celebrate this holiday.

😂

That's totally unfair.

[zazen]

14 hours ago, lina said:

IDF bulldozed displaced wounded civilians... it's becoming more horrifying and gruesome day by day in front of the whole world eyes. 

 

@Danioover9000 Good John Mearshimer share - seems to be a very reasonable objective voice.

To add to Nabds video of Bibi invoking Almalek again - the same time three hostages were sadly killed waiving white flags and shirtless just shows how the IDF operates. What of Palestinian civilians they come across wearing clothes (can’t see if their armed) and not waiving a flag..bad optics.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

😂

That's totally unfair.

Praise jesus, saturnalia and get a tree

it‘s soooo cozy

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, Nabd said:

Netanyahu: You must remember what Amalek has done to you.

Damn I keep getting surprised by how deep in shit Israeli government is. I can't imagine MBS or Sisi or any other president/monarch in the middle east to talk like that today. The only ones invoking ancient retarded holy books and taking them seriously are Hamas, Israel and Iran.

We are living in strange times where Saudi Arabia is more progressive than Israel.

It's kind of petty to cling to these words given they were spoken after such a brutal, unspeakable attack. Off course you will invoke the bible to gather yourself together and project strength.
If Saudi Arabia was to be attacked the same way they would unleash a medieval hell on their attackers. There is nothing really special about Israeli self bias. Historically, Practically and culturally speaking Israelis are an exceptional people in many respects. 

Man.. there is nothing surprising about everything that is happening. It was clear from the get go that the response on Gaza would be brutal. Maybe don't attack a highly patriotic, self biased, well armed neighbour. There was a ceasefire before 7/10, the next one will be on the day after Hamas. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Vrubel

[YeahIam]

@Leo Gura 

What do you think of Arnold's stance on the war, if you were in his shoes what would you do differently? 

 

Starting at 21:04

I think he tried to speak his truth while sustaining good relations with the Israelis.

But I can't help but feel saddened by how he strongly expresses how he stands with Israel while walking on egg-shells half-assing his expressed little to no opposition to what is happening to the Palestinians. 

 

 

[Vrubel]

21 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Karmadhi

   Speaking of him:

 

He downplays the threat posed by Hamas and Hezbollah. He argues there is no existential threat to Israel. That's not true. The existential threat for Israel is that it cannot exist as a state when terrorists whether from Hamas or Hezbollah can do savage incursions from time to time. That's why Israel has to cleanse these groups off its borders.

What people don't get is that it is insanity for Israel to just let Hamas and Hezbollah off the hook and do a ceasefire. Israel has to literally cleanse its borders from such organizations if it wants to continue to exist as a state. You have no right to exist if you cannot defend your people from rape, murder and kidnapping. 

Also, the whole apartheid narrative is bullshit or at the very least intellectually dishonest. Palestinians in Gaza are ruled by Hamas, and Palestinians in the West Bank by the PA with Israeli security control to break up terrorist organizing. And Israeli Arabs have full rights without even the duty to serve. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Vrubel

[Raze]

 

[hundreth]

5 hours ago, zazen said:

 

I agree both sides need to change no doubt. But putting them in certain conditions will change them for the worse rather than the better. During this whole time ‘waiting’ for them to change and build themselves under certain conditions they’re seeing what could be their future state being eaten away at rapid pace. And this isn’t just centrist liberal minded settlers but far right orthodox ones who are now armed and will be impossible to re-settle. This segment of the Israeli population will also make up a third of the population (due to higher birth rate) only shifting Israel more right in the years to come whilst the US population (youth) are shifting their support away from Israel at the same time - the two are diverging in opposite direction. 

 Are we expecting them to develop to stage green or something before giving them a state - by then it would be full of settlers nullifying the whole thing. It’s more on the abuser to win the trust of the one he’s abusing - can we expect the person being abused to not resist and ‘develop’ to a point to stop being abused or is it the inalienable right of the abused to stop the abuse first? 

The same logic that says ‘when we are attacked (October 7th) we retaliate in self defense and don’t look to assess the morality or the casualties of it’ can be applied to the Palestinians. October 7th will be etched in the mind of Israelis as a terrifying day, but 7 terrifying and dehumanising decades are etched in the mind of Palestinians - not just a day but the date x decades. And sure, for Jews they have been unjustly prosecuted in the worst of ways for hundreds of years and deserve a safe place and state of their own - just not at the expense of others, especially not the ones who didn’t inflict that suffering on them. Palestinians shouldn’t be paying the blood price for the sins of others who persecuted the Jews.

Israel has adopted a strategy of defense which commits atrocities to those that offered to protect them from atrocities. They mine their past traumatic history and in doing so and living amongst that dark past through victimhood re-traumatise others in the present day. Israel is obsessed with its right to self defence but doesn’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress.

You may not frame the situation as Israel being the abuser but all relevant bodies and states of the world refer to it as such - human rights groups and even states that are allies with Israel acknowledge occupation and apartheid - abuses to the spirit and dignity of man.

I never think of it in terms of societal development and Spiral dynamics stages. I don't expect the Palestinians to have a culture shift overnight and I understand your concerns. I also don't think it falls squarely on them.

What I do feel is that the international community needs to shift it's focus from victimization to empowerment. The international community will need to step up and directly invest peacekeeping forces and business initiatives to kick start the process.

Also, I have no disillusions about Israel being oppressive and abusive. I know they are. But just as you've mentioned a 7 decade long process for Palestinians to have their viewpoints, Israelis have also endured 7 decades of wars of annihilation, terrorist attacks, and bad faith negotiations where peace was never truly the agenda of the Palestinians. The destruction of Israel is the goal. From the river to the sea as they say. Today this phrase has been rebranded, but Jews don't forget. It's telling that pro Palestinian voices insist on using a loaded phrase with genocidal undertones. Even if you use it with a different meaning, you're aware that many use the same phrase for nefarious purposes. You would never do such a thing in any other context.

I believe Israelis from previous generations were way more invested in peaceful outcomes than today. What you see today is a product of decades of frustration and zero progress.