New War In Israel / Gaza

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

He downplays the threat posed by Hamas and Hezbollah. He argues there is no existential threat to Israel. That's not true. The existential threat for Israel is that it cannot exist as a state when terrorists whether from Hamas or Hezbollah can do savage incursions from time to time. That's why Israel has to cleanse these groups off its borders.

What people don't get is that it is insanity for Israel to just let Hamas and Hezbollah off the hook and do a ceasefire. Israel has to literally cleanse its borders from such organizations if it wants to continue to exist as a state. You have no right to exist if you cannot defend your people from rape, murder and kidnapping. 

Also, the whole apartheid narrative is bullshit or at the very least intellectually dishonest. Palestinians in Gaza are ruled by Hamas, and Palestinians in the West Bank by the PA with Israeli security control to break up terrorist organizing. And Israeli Arabs have full rights without even the duty to serve. 

   And? That's a different argument related adjacent to the other arguments we've been having. The argument we're focused on is the humanitarian crisis caused by israel onto Palestinians from the West Bank, to Gaza, and even to Israeli Palestinians by the alt right Zionists within Israel, israel expansionism of a greater israel at the cost of some Palestinians dying and suffering, and related is the problems of the israel lobby movement within the USA leveraging thier support of israel. So John Mearsheimer's argument is specifically in regards to the humanitarian crisis and against Zionists wanting to genocide the Palestinians for a greater israel. What John Mearsheimer isn't argueing for or against is HAMAs and Hezbollah specifically, and whether it's justified for isreal to exterminate HAMAs or Hezbollah, John is more focused on the lose of life of civilians by israel's military, so I think this 'downplaying' is merely another argument that he isn't making, that you're assuming he's making.

   What people don't get is how integrated HAMAs is to Gaza and even the West Bank, and Hezbollah is to southern Lebanon, and the military actions of israel radicalizing Muslims who may have been centrist, or slightly right or left leaning, to be polarized into strongly supporting Hezbollah or HAMAs due to fears of israel invading into their areas. By israel ethnic cleansing it's borders, the attempt will create collateral damage to Gaza, to West Bank, and if the situation escalates, to southern Lebanon. Can you imagine the cost of life if israel isn't held down by the USA? Do you know how many lives will get killed and suffer from israel invading? It's almost guaranteed that lose of civilian life will be far greater than estimated.

   How is the whole apartheid BS? What is a better parallel to this situation? Nazi Germany?

   And how would you lead and manage this conflict against HAMAs and Hezbollah, while minimizing cost to civilian lives caught in the crossfires, by sophisticated technological weaponry by israel's weapons versus HAMA's own?  

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

6 hours ago, zazen said:

 

I agree both sides need to change no doubt. But putting them in certain conditions will change them for the worse rather than the better. During this whole time ‘waiting’ for them to change and build themselves under certain conditions they’re seeing what could be their future state being eaten away at rapid pace. And this isn’t just centrist liberal minded settlers but far right orthodox ones who are now armed and will be impossible to re-settle. This segment of the Israeli population will also make up a third of the population (due to higher birth rate) only shifting Israel more right in the years to come whilst the US population (youth) are shifting their support away from Israel at the same time - the two are diverging in opposite direction. 

 Are we expecting them to develop to stage green or something before giving them a state - by then it would be full of settlers nullifying the whole thing. It’s more on the abuser to win the trust of the one he’s abusing - can we expect the person being abused to not resist and ‘develop’ to a point to stop being abused or is it the inalienable right of the abused to stop the abuse first? 

The same logic that says ‘when we are attacked (October 7th) we retaliate in self defense and don’t look to assess the morality or the casualties of it’ can be applied to the Palestinians. October 7th will be etched in the mind of Israelis as a terrifying day, but 7 terrifying and dehumanising decades are etched in the mind of Palestinians - not just a day but the date x decades. And sure, for Jews they have been unjustly prosecuted in the worst of ways for hundreds of years and deserve a safe place and state of their own - just not at the expense of others, especially not the ones who didn’t inflict that suffering on them. Palestinians shouldn’t be paying the blood price for the sins of others who persecuted the Jews.

Israel has adopted a strategy of defense which commits atrocities to those that offered to protect them from atrocities. They mine their past traumatic history and in doing so and living amongst that dark past through victimhood re-traumatise others in the present day. Israel is obsessed with its right to self defence but doesn’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress.

You may not frame the situation as Israel being the abuser but all relevant bodies and states of the world refer to it as such - human rights groups and even states that are allies with Israel acknowledge occupation and apartheid - abuses to the spirit and dignity of man.

   Nice post as always.

[Danioover9000]

   This is the AIPAC:

   And John Mearsheimer's take:

 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

He downplays the threat posed by Hamas and Hezbollah. He argues there is no existential threat to Israel. That's not true. The existential threat for Israel is that it cannot exist as a state when terrorists whether from Hamas or Hezbollah can do savage incursions from time to time. That's why Israel has to cleanse these groups off its borders.

What people don't get is that it is insanity for Israel to just let Hamas and Hezbollah off the hook and do a ceasefire. Israel has to literally cleanse its borders from such organizations if it wants to continue to exist as a state. You have no right to exist if you cannot defend your people from rape, murder and kidnapping. 

Also, the whole apartheid narrative is bullshit or at the very least intellectually dishonest. Palestinians in Gaza are ruled by Hamas, and Palestinians in the West Bank by the PA with Israeli security control to break up terrorist organizing. And Israeli Arabs have full rights without even the duty to serve. 

👍🔥

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

👍🔥

🙊🙉🙈🤷‍♀️

[Vrubel]

20 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

, so I think this 'downplaying' is merely another argument that he isn't making, that you're assuming he's making.

He literally said there is no existential threat to Israel. 

Being vulnerable to such horrific attacks is an existential threat. Only a complete imbecile Dodo bird will be fine with it and not remove the threats. 

 

22 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

By israel ethnic cleansing it's borders, the attempt will create collateral damage to Gaza, to West Bank, and if the situation escalates, to southern Lebanon. Can you imagine the cost of life if israel isn't held down by the USA? Do you know how many lives will get killed and suffer from israel invading? It's almost guaranteed that lose of civilian life will be far greater than estimated.

With cleansing, I meant the terrorist organizations, not the population. 

In a certain sense Hamas has thrown Hezbollah under the bus because Israel now starkly realizes they cannot live with such savages directly at the border. 

Ideally, some diplomatic solution will be found. I think war can be avoided if Hezbollah moves away from the Israel border and some DMZ into Lebanon is established. 
 

26 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

How is the whole apartheid BS? What is a better parallel to this situation? Nazi Germany?

It's not apartheid, it's its own thing. Israel scores a lot of own goals with its policies, which Palestinians can leverage to fight for their rights in peaceful ways. The whole world is reporting on it and condemning Israel. All that Palestinians have to do for hearts and minds (including mine) is not to support terror. Yet that's what they overwhelmingly do and turns many people definitively off (including myself). They A: present themselves as a great(er) evil and B: people just don't click with such backward dysfunctional worldviews. Most people care about Palestinian rights but not about the extermination or doing terror against Israelis. 
 

31 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

 And how would you lead and manage this conflict against HAMAs and Hezbollah, while minimizing cost to civilian lives caught in the crossfires, by sophisticated technological weaponry by israel's weapons versus HAMA's own?  

I am not a military commander so I have no idea but it's clear that Hamas exploits its own population to the fullest. Despite everything it's Israel that cares more for the civilians of Gaza. Even Hamas literally said that the burden of caring for the civilian population is on the UN and "the occupation". Hamas' greatest strength is that it just doesn't give a fuck about anything and isn't responsible for anything or anyone. They just fight and hide in their tunnels hoping for Israel to just stop because of the international pressure and then they will emerge from the tunnels giving peace signs and being cheered as heroes by the population. That's what winning looks like for Hamas. But Israel of course cannot allow for Hamas to rebuild itself and again risk another 7/10. The scope of Israel's seriousness is enormous, it's not fucking around anymore. 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

He literally said there is no existential threat to Israel. 

Being vulnerable to such horrific attacks is an existential threat. Only a complete imbecile Dodo bird will be fine with it and not remove the threats. 

 

With cleansing, I meant the terrorist organizations, not the population. 

In a certain sense Hamas has thrown Hezbollah under the bus because Israel now starkly realizes they cannot live with such savages directly at the border. 

Ideally, some diplomatic solution will be found. I think war can be avoided if Hezbollah moves away from the Israel border and some DMZ into Lebanon is established. 
 

It's not apartheid, it's its own thing. Israel scores a lot of own goals with its policies, which Palestinians can leverage to fight for their rights in peaceful ways. The whole world is reporting on it and condemning Israel. All that Palestinians have to do for hearts and minds (including mine) is not to support terror. Yet that's what they overwhelmingly do and turns many people definitively off (including myself). They A: present themselves as a great(er) evil and B: people just don't click with such backward dysfunctional worldviews. Most people care about Palestinian rights but not about the extermination or doing terror against Israelis. 
 

I am not a military commander so I have no idea but it's clear that Hamas exploits its own population to the fullest. Despite everything it's Israel that cares more for the civilians of Gaza. Even Hamas literally said that the burden of caring for the civilian population is on the UN and "the occupation". Hamas' greatest strength is that it just doesn't give a fuck about anything and isn't responsible for anything or anyone. They just fight and hide in their tunnels hoping for Israel to just stop because of the international pressure and then they will emerge from the tunnels giving peace signs and being cheered as heroes by the population. That's what winning looks like for Hamas. But Israel of course cannot allow for Hamas to rebuild itself and again risk another 7/10. The scope of Israel's seriousness is enormous, it's not fucking around anymore. 

   Why would John Mearsheimer say there's literally no existential threat to Israel? Also that's anoterh argument I'm and others here are not making, he is. Stop assuming I'm arguing the same as him.

   Cleansing and ethnic cleansing while they're at it, and some genocide because after all HAM,As, similar to Hezbollah, is integrated into Gaza and West Bank, so again how would you avoid unnecessary lose of life while taking out HAMAs terrorists? Also, Isreal's military equipment is so precise they know exactly who's HAMAs and who's a Palestinian civilian, so wouldn't this fall under the definition of genocide by the UN?

   So it's clear when HAMAs or Hezbollah take advantage of it's population, but not so clear when Israel does?

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   And? That's a different argument related adjacent to the other arguments we've been having. The argument we're focused on is the humanitarian crisis caused by israel onto Palestinians from the West Bank, to Gaza, and even to Israeli Palestinians by the alt right Zionists within Israel, israel expansionism of a greater israel at the cost of some Palestinians dying and suffering, and related is the problems of the israel lobby movement within the USA leveraging thier support of israel. So John Mearsheimer's argument is specifically in regards to the humanitarian crisis and against Zionists wanting to genocide the Palestinians for a greater israel. What John Mearsheimer isn't argueing for or against is HAMAs and Hezbollah specifically, and whether it's justified for isreal to exterminate HAMAs or Hezbollah, John is more focused on the lose of life of civilians by israel's military, so I think this 'downplaying' is merely another argument that he isn't making, that you're assuming he's making.

   What people don't get is how integrated HAMAs is to Gaza and even the West Bank, and Hezbollah is to southern Lebanon, and the military actions of israel radicalizing Muslims who may have been centrist, or slightly right or left leaning, to be polarized into strongly supporting Hezbollah or HAMAs due to fears of israel invading into their areas. By israel ethnic cleansing it's borders, the attempt will create collateral damage to Gaza, to West Bank, and if the situation escalates, to southern Lebanon. Can you imagine the cost of life if israel isn't held down by the USA? Do you know how many lives will get killed and suffer from israel invading? It's almost guaranteed that lose of civilian life will be far greater than estimated.

   How is the whole apartheid BS? What is a better parallel to this situation? Nazi Germany?

   And how would you lead and manage this conflict against HAMAs and Hezbollah, while minimizing cost to civilian lives caught in the crossfires, by sophisticated technological weaponry by israel's weapons versus HAMA's own?  

1. What humanitarian crisis there is in the west bank? Beside the water quality problem. In gaza there is I agree.

2. "Israel expansionism to the greater Israel in the cost of palesitnians dying"?

Who said the goal is to reach "greater Israel"? This is at most a projection of the podcaster.

How does the settlememts expansion cause palestinians dying? This is only true when an extremist settler do its own deal but not a regular scenario. 

3. Zionists want to genocide? This is also a projection in the mind of the podcaster.

4. The military action radicalize muslims - I agree with you. But what is the alternative? To get out of the west bank?

5. Israel's "ethnic cleansing in the borders"? How so? The threat near the border is by Radwan force which is 100% a terorrist group.

6. "appartheid"?

Can you give an exmple?

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Raze  @zazen Great video on the conflict:

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

@Lila9 @Vrubel  and @@Nivsch , you are blocked and in my ignore list. I will never post or communicate to you 3 EVER AGAIN! So deranged and delusional it's insane dealing with harassment mail from you 3. Don't ever talk to me or communicate to me in this forum or I will report you 3 to the moderators and @Leo Gura to enforce this boundary right now. That's it, am not ever coming to this thread again, maybe the political sub forum, it's now too toxic to deal with dogmatic users hate messaging me, unbelievable. Don't talk to me ever.

[Nivsch]

@Danioover9000 Me sent you a mail? I didn't send you anything.

 

 

[Lila9]

@Danioover9000 

Could you share the messages that have been sent to you by the three users you tagged?

I am certain that I have never sent any messages to you.

[Vrubel]

@Danioover9000 I never made anything personal with you. What harassment? what hate? 

[StarStruck]

27 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Lila9 @Vrubel  and @@Nivsch , you are blocked and in my ignore list. I will never post or communicate to you 3 EVER AGAIN! So deranged and delusional it's insane dealing with harassment mail from you 3. Don't ever talk to me or communicate to me in this forum or I will report you 3 to the moderators and @Leo Gura to enforce this boundary right now. That's it, am not ever coming to this thread again, maybe the political sub forum, it's now too toxic to deal with dogmatic users hate messaging me, unbelievable. Don't talk to me ever.

👍🏽

[Merkabah Star]

12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Lila9 @Vrubel  and @@Nivsch , you are blocked and in my ignore list. I will never post or communicate to you 3 EVER AGAIN! So deranged and delusional it's insane dealing with harassment mail from you 3. Don't ever talk to me or communicate to me in this forum or I will report you 3 to the moderators and @Leo Gura to enforce this boundary right now. That's it, am not ever coming to this thread again, maybe the political sub forum, it's now too toxic to deal with dogmatic users hate messaging me, unbelievable. Don't talk to me ever.

It’s a heated topic for everyone. Just have a break. 

they live there so it’s really personal for them. 
 

 

[PurpleTree]

 

[Karmadhi]

@Danioover9000  I know its none of my business but @Nivsch is relatively fairly moderate pro Israeli, not a radical. He is of course in my opinion biased but quite open to criticism of Israel and also agrees on some important points. So I think it is a bit unfair to hate on him like this. 
I am assuming he did not private message you hateful stuff , if he did then fine.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

 

Both seem very down to earth and objective, good share.

[hundreth]

9 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

 

Yeah, this is a well done and well informed conversation.