New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are gonna have a field day with the latest CNN news.

God help us all.

Who’s batting first captain? 
 

Might have to sit this one out Zazen style 

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[jimwell]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

A cnn journalist got into Gaza 

 

Gazan kids are experiencing extreme horror and trauma which will result in clinical anxiety and depression, and murderous desires towards oneself and others when these kids become adults. The evil being inflicted by Israel now will have lingering effects for more than a century, becoming very significant and evident in the next 40 years.

Devils have always made Earth more similar to hell than heaven.    

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

A cnn journalist got into Gaza 

 

Devastating. 

[Raze]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/3-hostages-in-gaza-killed-by-friendly-fire-israeli-military-says/
 

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111
 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nearly-15-israeli-soldiers-killed-gaza-died-due-friendly-fire-accident-rcna129285

 

Israel has admitted it shot its own civilians on Oct 7, accidentally killed hostages, and accidentally killed many of their own soldiers from friendly fire. This may make the population more angry at their government. So for polls find Israeli’s actually want the IDF to use more force on Gaza so they probably don’t care about Palestinian lives, but learning their government may have taken their own peoples lives will make them react.

[Raze]

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze Yes the helicopters helped to kill hamas people near the border at the beginning before IDF entered the kibbutses, and often it was harder for them to be accurate in the identifications so there were few mistakes.

But nothing will change the facts:

~1200 murdered (~360 in Nova)

240 kidnapped

By hamas.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

21 minutes ago, Raze said:

 

   That's just even worse, that cat didn't deserve to get it's leg injured by an Israeli bomb. Sickos. This whole Israel/Palestine conflict sucks.

[zazen]

16 hours ago, hundreth said:

I'm not going to respond to your entire self righteous and sanctimonious essay. This is how you frame the entire conflict, and that's unfortunate. I don't frame it the same way.

Jews migrated to Palestine, population shifts happen. Jews are no more occupiers in Palestine than Mexicans migrating to the United States. They purchased land legally. You can point to isolated quotes from Zionist leaders with nefarious purposes out of context, but it doesn't change the fact that Jews never forcibly removed Palestinians from their lands before the UN resolution, and the arabs declaring war against the Jews. This isn't the minority report, you can't convict Jews based on the thoughts or isolated quotes from certain Zionists.

Once war breaks out, things happen. I know it makes you upset, but the Palestinians LOST the war. THEY LOST. Now you want to behave as though Israelis are "arrogant" because they hold all the cards. F that. 

Mexicans aren't trying to displace Americans and establish their own state with biased laws. That's stretching the definition of the word. Here’s a linked index of discriminatory laws from the democracy known as Israel  - https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

Partial truths are a dangerous thing. Sure, not all the Palestinians in the Nakba (a term legislatively banned in Israel) were massacred or directly terrorised by the Haganah (main paramilitary organization which became the core of the IDF) but a great enough proportion were that rumours spread and Palestinians warned their communities leading them to leave - it was the catalyst.

Why else would people who had been there generations get up and leave - you think they voluntarily just left and had a change of heart deciding their more beach people preferring Gaza rather than mountainous people in land. Forcibly removed doesn't mean gunpoint evacuation it can be coerced by atrocities and terrorising.

The Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine was less than a third of which most  arrived between 1924-1939 - meaning that majority of those advocating for partition had been living there for at most 20 years. Yet, the UN partition plan allocated approximately 56% of the land of Mandatory Palestine to the Jewish state.

Why were Palestinians expected to agree to cede the majority of their land to a minority of recently arrived settlers? The rejection of such an unfair proposal is often portrayed as irrational or hateful, but why should it be seen as such?

Israel thinks it holds all the blood stained cards, but the world has voted and sided with the truth except a few. What were once deemed terrorists such as Mat Turner of the slave revolt or Mandela of South Africa are now lauded as heroes of emancipation. 

Resistance movements are built on the blood of martyrs which Israel ensures a continual supply of. Their called grassroots movements for a reason - you can't get rid of them unless you poison the soil ie genocide, expulsion or brutal subjugation. Resistance will never stop unless the soil is destroyed because its the soil (people) that keeps the grass (resistance) growing. 

If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. Everything Israel obtains through oppression is inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by zazen

[_Archangel_]

@jaylimix i've been reading your latest comments i think i should make the subsequent objections:
1- you claim the word Genocide is not fitting  situation in Palestine - i invite you to take at look at my post page 241. 
    The term can be applied and there is consensus on it, but western mainstream media is reclutant to talk about it for obvious reasons.
2- the fact that the population of palestinians is rising doesn't tell much about the quality of their existence.
3- You should't blame it on Islam about the suicide bombers. Pretty much every religion had their terrorist throughout history.
    The problem is their level of development and situation, not religion.

[Raze]

interesting: this documentary from 2012 interviews former heads of Israel’s domestic security agency on what sets Israel’s security policy 

 

[zazen]

Unreasonable 

 

[Raze]

15 minutes ago, Raze said:

interesting: this documentary from 2012 interviews former heads of Israel’s domestic security agency on what sets Israel’s security policy 

 

You can watch it free here

https://www.documentaryarea.com/video/The Gatekeepers/

@Leo Gura

Watch this, it explains a lot of Israel’s perspective but also their hidden motives 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Bahahahahaha....

If it does not then why is democracy considered a more evolved and better system than autocracy? What benefits does it have if not everyone is treated equal? 

[Raze]

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

If it does not then why is democracy considered a more evolved and better system than autocracy? What benefits does it have if not everyone is treated equal? 

1) There are MANY degrees of democracy, like a scale from 0 to 1000. And no country is anywhere close to 1000. Being closer towards 1000 is better than being closer to 0.

2) Democracy as it is practiced today is too weak to assure equality. But it at least prevents tyranny and insane injustice. The closer you get to 1000 the more equal and just things get.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There are MANY degrees of democracy, like a scale from 0 to 1000. And no country is anywhere close to 1000. Being closer towards 1000 is better than being closer to 0.

Where would you put Israel?

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Democracy as it is practiced today is too weak to assure equality. But it at least prevents tyranny and insane injustice. The closer you get to 1000 the more equal and just things get.

The way Palestinians are treated by Israelis is insanely injust. Putting hundreds of kids into cages seems just to you? Or shooting unarmed kids for throwing rocks at you? How is this any better than the way Putin's Russia treats Russians? I would argue they are treated more humanely than Palestinians under Israeli. I would invite you to do some research and see how they have been treated through the decades. There is NOTHING democratic about it. Pure tyranny. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The way Palestinians are treated by Israelis is insanely injust. Putting hundreds of kids into cages seems just to you?

Palestine is not part of the Israel government, so why would it fall under its democracy? Israel treats Palestine as a foreign terrorist state. Democracy does not apply outside one's boarder. At least not in today's world. Maybe in 500 years.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Where would you put Israel?

It's hard to quantify it. I don't know all the ins and outs of the Israeli government. You'd need to create some kind of objective metrics to quantify it.

Here's a starting point:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

Edited December 16, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi There are also women being sometimes murdered by their husbands in Tel Aviv and in Toronto.

This doesn't make Israel or Canada a murderous tyrrani. I can also play the game of extreme edge cases. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi There are also women being sometimes murdered by their husbands in Tel Aviv and in Toronto.

This doesn't make Israel or Canada a murderous tyrrani. I can also play the game of extreme edge cases. 

At what point do the extreme edge cases become the normalised viewpoint reflecting the politics and society of a country? 

From John Mearsheimers latest substack article:

''Israeli leaders talk about Palestinians and what they would like to do in Gaza in shocking terms, especially when you consider that some of these leaders also talk incessantly about the horrors of the Holocaust. Indeed, their rhetoric has led Omar Bartov, a prominent Israeli-born scholar of the Holocaust, to conclude that Israel has “genocidal intent.” Other scholars in Holocaust and genocide studies have offered a similar warning.

To be more specific, it is commonplace for Israeli leaders to refer to Palestinians as “human animals, ”human beasts,” and “horrible inhuman animals.” And as Israeli President Isaac Herzog makes clear, those leaders are referring to all Palestinians, not just Hamas: In his words, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible.” Unsurprisingly, as the New York Times reports, it is part of normal Israeli discourse to call for Gaza to be “flattened,” “erased,” or “destroyed.” One retired IDF general, who proclaimed that “Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist,” also makes the case that “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer.” Going even further, a minister in the Israeli government suggested dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza. These statements are not being made by isolated extremists, but by senior members of Israel’s government.

Of course, there is also much talk of ethnically cleansing Gaza (and the West Bank), in effect, producing another Nakba. To quote Israel’s Agriculture Minister, “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba.” Perhaps the most shocking evidence of the depths to which Israeli society has sunk is a video of very young children singing a blood-curdling song celebrating Israel’s destruction of Gaza: “Within a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow our fields.”

Edited December 16, 2023 by zazen