One of our forum members (vanish) may have committed suicide in the name of Truth

[Torkys]

Disclaimer: I understand that the following criticisms, objections, and opinions are just projections of my and the collective shadow and that all of this is untenable. Even if @vanish is a troll and didn't actually kill himself, my heavy emotional reaction is real and the lessons learned from this - maybe hypothetical - situation still hold true.

For those of you who are unaware, @vanish posted some radical things on this forum - hopefully so far. He holds/held the view that awakening may only come from physical death, aka suicide. He wrote about living a life-threatening lifestyle - being in the dark, only drinking water for multiple weeks. He went into a bath full of ice almost killing himself which he announced earlier as killing "him"self. On March 26th, he wrote about the two lifestyles - self-development and self-destruction - and two days later he wrote a post saying that after he finished writing this post he is gonna shoot himself. Alot of people - including myself - started following him after this - he hasn't been online ever since.

Now, I hate to say this but from an absolute perspective, every choice is equal. Fundamentally there is no difference between saving 100 lives and torturing yourself and committing suicide. I was shocked that even though I may grasp this on an intellectual level but not an emotional level - and I won't until my psychological death as @vanish would put it.

The wording used by @Leo Gura and other spiritual teachers can be very easily misinterpreted:

Quote

"Death is the greatest thing that could ever happen to a living creature"

"The highest degree of enlightenment is your physical death" - paraphrasing Leo

 

Because Leo didn't react until @vanish mentioned taking his life and almost complimented him for fasting and almost dying in that ice bath, many people accused him of talking @vanish to suicide. I would argue against this on some level; any symbol could be a trigger for any action. In theory, you could train a person to rape anyone if you say the word "peanuts". But Leo - also everybody who encouraged him, everybody who remained passive including me and for that matter everybody -, still, how the fuck didn't you stop him earlier? He was seriously playing with his health; he could have died from that ice bath.

I want to discuss this issue - I think others may be also worried about this. @vanish, if you are reading this, come back and say "it was just a prank, bro!".

What can we do about this? How to prevent or limit such misinterpretations in the future?

[Aimblack]

In my opinion people who willingly walk on this path are either emotionally damaged or insane. I see myself as part of the former group, so if he did indeed kill himself I would say that vanish probably would have taken any model and used that as an excuse to do what he did.

But I still think that people who talk like leo should keep stuff like this in mind. Back in the days when there was a guru-disciple relationship, the guru could verify how far the disciple is and then give them appropriate teaching. The antagonistic way that leo talks about the ego could be very harmful to a lot of people. And I've actually made a thread about this a couple of months ago.

Stuff like this is why love and kindness is very important in our development and the more I practice it, the more I realize how much that is lacking in general society and even here. Nobody here is willing to acknowledge the suffering of their surrounding and their own because after all 'everything is infinity' while that may or may not be true, saying that may not be appropriate in every situation and most people here just don't seem to get this.

[Arman]

To say he did it in the name of Truth is ridiculous. Likely he did it because he was suffering mentally. It became obvious with later threads that he was seriously psychologically disturbed. 

52 minutes ago, Torkys said:

still, how the fuck didn't you stop him earlier? He was seriously playing with his health; he could have died from that ice bath.

His initial thread where he talked about fasting and jumping into the ice water was a little intense, but not worthy of intervention. Within the context of this forum, extended fasting isn't exactly an alarm. He said he did it for 25 days drinking water, yes, but there weren't other details and he seemed fairly lucid. People go on juice fasts for 1 month, and that could have been what he meant. It sounded like he was just a dude who was pushing some physical limits, as is one approach that has been taken by others in the past. Btw, some people, like athletes, do ice baths regularly.

Weird? Yes. Extreme? Maybe, but within context it wasn't cause for any particular alarm. He came across like a hardcore seeker. Not everyone in life does things softly, and we can't always assume the worst. In this case, Leo probably assumed what I assumed: that he's a little foolhardy, but admirable. 

In the first thread where he mentioned killing himself he was being cryptic and making it seem like he was seeking ego death rather than physical death. I left a half joking comment saying he should consider the suicide hotline because something felt really off... if you look at the posts, it's clear that not everyone thought he going to literally kill himself. 

When he implied potential self harm, Leo's statement both times very clear: don't do anything to harm yourself.

Distorting these teachings to make that stuff okay is only something that can be done out of a very low and distorted level of consciousness - at that point it doesn't matter what teaching or teacher you put in front of them... they are going to reap their own distortions.

[lmfao]

Rip. The problem of suffering is a tough one. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by lmfao

[Truth]

Quote

I owe my death to my parents. It's because of their desire to experience sex that they will experience what it's like to see their son dead on the floor and blood leaking through the bedroom's door into the hallway. After this experience they will never have sex again, their lives forever be affected.

Quote from him.

If it's true, he wasn't doing it for Truth, he was doing it out of spite/revenge of his family and used spiritual teachings as an excuse to follow through on that, hence Leo's comment -->  

Quote

Do not bastardize these teachings. You are acting irresponsibly, out of lack of proper and full understanding.

But that's the problem with giving advice to people you really don't know, it's pure, utter conjecture. 

"The minute someone thinks they know what's true about you. they're in fantasy land. " - Matt Khan

This is why it's important to be mindful of the advice or information one gives to other people, everything one says and does will have an effect on someone else (unless they're conscious of what I'm saying here, conscious of their own interpretations and filtering processes). 

 

[Sukhpaal]

I feel that, another factor is doing too much too soon. Like the 25 day fast he did with water and all that stuff might have been too dramatic for his psyche to handle. Then homeostasis goes into overdrive and he falls into massive depression and harms himself. Just a theory though, hopefully he is okay.

[Max_V]

I hope he is okay. So sad to see such a lost soul.

[Crystalous]

That's really sad.But you know...at this point you feel nobody understands you.Suicide is a part in human nature.I believe he tried it.I also believe parents are responsible for that, in every circumstance a young individual commits suicide the parents are responsible.I believe parents are responsible for your 'normal' suffering too.Fuck people that become parents without real self development.In the forum there is so much pain...this is what forces us to change, if we were 'happy' we would not try.The only thing that matters is to stay alive.Its ok to feel pain to become sick but everything can be reversed if you are alive.If you trully believe you can change the situation everything is possible.I wish nobody feel the destructive pain of suicide.Pain can be destructive for the body or for the ego(which is the opossite)

Edited April 2, 2018 by Crystalous
mistake

[Monkey-man]

Once you transcend your consciousness into nirvana but not enlightened yet (not in kingdom of god state) your consciousness lose your body's protection and you are target for all kinds of vital forces that can make you to commit suicide. Buddha had many attacks of such kind just before his awakening under Bodhi tree. Second thing is the way he reached transcendental consciousness or witness state - ice bath and month in darkness and starvation - what the fak? Such techniques will drive anyone to insanity, people try to get fast results and eventually do wrong things, spiritual path has to do with energy and energetic mechanisms should be understood but he used brute force- God knows what happened to him but if it ended up badly then well he will probably reincarnate and start everything again, God is all forgiving. 

[Joseph Maynor]

3 hours ago, Aimblack said:

In my opinion people who willingly walk on this path are either emotionally damaged or insane. I see myself as part of the former group

 Wow.  That’s a statement.  

Edited April 2, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Crystalous]

7 minutes ago, Monkey-man said:

Once you transcend your consciousness into nirvana but not enlightened yet (not in kingdom of god state) your consciousness lose your body's protection and you are target for all kinds of vital forces that can make you to commit suicide. Buddha had many attacks of such kind just before his awakening under Bodhi tree. Second thing is the way he reached transcendental consciousness or witness state - ice bath and month in darkness and starvation - what the fak? Such techniques will drive anyone to insanity, people try to get fast results and eventually do wrong things, spiritual path has to do with energy and energetic mechanisms should be understood but he used brute force- God knows what happened to him but if it ended up badly then well he will probably reincarnate and start everything again, God is all forgiving. 

thats interesting.I had a forced nirvana enlightenment experience.I was in paradise...i saw the truth the love the freedom.But after two years i was fucked i was ready to suicide.So much pain in my heart.Is it attacks or is it just the + and -  in life?

[Aimblack]

12 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

 Wow.  That’s a statement.  

Okay I might have been exaggerating a bit  But what I mean is that you need to put away most of the things you have ever learned and although everything in your body and mind screams for you to stop, you like keep going just on the hunch that there might be something else out there. At least for me, the first two weeks of meditation were torture..I was itchy, bored, and felt like jumping out of my skin. A small hint that I was on the right way only came like 4 months into doing this. Every normal person just like moves on and finds other things to fix what they perceive to be wrong, leaving only the ones behind who can't or won't do that.

[Joseph Maynor]

Wow that was on the March 25th.  That seemed longer ago.  Yeah, that post shocked me too.  I couldn’t tell if it was a prank or real.  But, yeah, it shocked me.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Monkey-man]

@Crystalous that's common issue people reach nirvana and think that it's the main enlightenment - nope, the main thing is what comes after that. Nirvanic impersonal paradise is transcendental or witness state, it can feel good in the beginning but eventually your body loses descending energy because of your ascension into nirvana and body becomes vulnerable and will panic. So in order to proceed one must go back into body and continue mindfulness, observing thoughts and emotions and all the egoic reactions and typical spiritual work in order to 1)prevent attacks from astral/vital planes, emotional rollercoaster is natural consequences in the witness state, you need to stay mindful and not get triggered by emotions 2) let the energy to descend through your head and purify chakra canals until enlightenment. The whole process between witness state and enlightenment can take like two weeks because you just need allow the energy to flow into you and stay mindful, conscious, observing thoughts and emotions, and also surrender. But vanish got caught up by destabilized emotions

by main enlightenment I don't mean final one but the most remarkable, crucial step on the path

Edited April 2, 2018 by Monkey-man

[pluto]

All is well. Focus on self.

[aurum]

@Torkys

From the quotes I'm reading from him, he sounds very similar to the mindset of many school shooters.

My armchair theory is that he was in a lot of pain and wanted other people to understand him. This is very common in school shooters: they want to inflict pain because it's the only way they see that they can feel connected.

In retrospect, all of us should have had more empathy and saw these posts for what they actually were. Cries for help.

Let's send some love to his family.

[sarapr]

I had messaged him a while ago but it wasn't even read.

I think he might've actually done it. so sad 

Edited April 3, 2018 by sarapr

[pluto]

What if i told you that Physical Death and Enlightenment are one and the absolute same. Ultimately. I know it may be hard for most to grasp but when you have the direct plug into source even for a nanosecond you will understand ALL IS WELL. Everything that happens is chosen to happen whether the being is aware or not it unfolds in its own divine order and own divine play regardless of the infinite possibilities.

Spreading the love is great but focusing on illusion only brings more of. I understand this stuff because i was in the suicidal phase many times during my life and there's really nothing anyone else can do to help but yourself.

When you think back it was ultimately all you who set yourself free.

You cannot force an awakening or psychedelic experience in others, you can only help plant a seed but how it sprouts is how they choose to allow and surrender to the seed itself. You all should be more than proud of yourselves because the many you've helped far outweigh the few you couldn't.

Remember there could of been many others without even mentioning it. Be grateful for the ones you did notice and tried to help as whether it happened or not teaches us more about ourselves but getting ourselves entangled in these things is not the answer especially if we do not know for sure.

One way or another feeling anything other than gratitude and happiness for the way in which life becomes will only create your own suffering.

Lets not create more of what we aren't completely sure of. Lets just be grateful and appreciate what good we have done and created thus far. What you focus on grows and overflows everything else. Do you want freedom or do you want sadness?

No one is saying you shouldn't care but there's a reason they call it the cosmic giggle. You care by trusting not caring.

If you want to show true authenticity for others and the world around you, look in the mirror and love yourself, loving yourself genuinely and purely is of the greatest things you can do for the rest as all is one and one is all.

Raise your vibe, exist in your paradise.

Focus on self and everything will fall into place and make perfect sense.

Freedom is in your hands

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by pluto

[blazed]

15 hours ago, Torkys said:

@Leo Gura @vanish @vanish@vanish Leo - also everybody who encouraged him, everybody who remained passive including me and for that matter everybody -, still, how the fuck didn't you stop him earlier? He was seriously playing with his health; he could have died from that ice bath,

Not sure why we needed a thread about it on top of his original thread.

On average there is supposed to be 120 deaths by suicide per day on US alone. Then there is all the other kinds of brutal and unfair deaths.

The importance of this person is only because you had some attention diverted towards him on this forum.

The ego constructed a story/scenario and now the ego is fighting/debating about it about how sad it is and how reality should be all rainbows and sunshine.

It's all in the mind.

If he wanted to die and went through with it he manifested what his mind wanted at that moment.  There's no point labelling it as good or bad.

you feeling bad about it isn't going to change anything for him but it will make you unnecessarily feel worse.

No one here is responsible for anything, and shouldn't feel guilt.

Yes we all suffer when a loved one dies but it is all in the mind, the logical thinking and memory's and inability to accept change and let go of a person who was always bound to an ending.

None of Leo's teachings points to physical death, only ego death or spiritual enlightenment,  but one who seeks suicide will find what he ultimately seeks.

[Torkys]

14 hours ago, Arman said:

To say he did it in the name of Truth is ridiculous.

14 hours ago, Truth said:

If it's true, he wasn't doing it for Truth,...

I was deluded, I get it. But his excuse was really centered around "awakening". He tortures himself, writes this and commits suicide later:

Quote

You physically have to die to awaken from this dream to become it. This is the truth. Every "choices" you've made in your life has lead you to this thread so this truth could be delivered to you.

Leo is aware of this and is trying to hit the truth from different angles so people with different world views can see it. If he follows his teachings then he will stop making videos one day and retire somewhere in the middle of nowhere and let himself die so he can experience the biggest mindfuck that no psychedelic or meditation session can deliver.

 

His excuse for doing the things he did was so convincing to himself that he asserted that's the truth and we all should know it.

5 hours ago, aurum said:

My armchair theory is that he was in a lot of pain and wanted other people to understand him. This is very common in school shooters: they want to inflict pain because it's the only way they see that they can feel connected.

God fucking damn @aurum! You just had me, you get my biggest imaginary upvote.

@pluto, this was beautiful. That quote spoke to me.

14 minutes ago, blazed said:

The importance of this person is only because you had some attention diverted towards him on this forum.

Of fucking course @blazed. I can't deny that I created this post for selfish purposes. In case this does actually lead to a change, I could say I was the one who started it. Of course. I am an ego but this was - and is - the most authentic thing for me to do in this situation.

26 minutes ago, blazed said:

The ego constructed a story/scenario and now the ego is fighting/debating about it about how sad it is and how reality should be all rainbows and sunshine.

[...]

you feeling bad about it isn't going to change anything for him but it will make you unnecessarily feel worse.

 

You fail to understand something here. You say I create unnecessary suffering for myself - and for others. You try to show that talking about @vanish is useless and won't bring any good solely through reason.

The resistance will always be there until it is released and authenticity is the source of all spiritual purification. I made people show their opinions and feelings (the latter most people here can handle). I manifested my life purpose in this very thread.

The understanding that humans are rational or emotional creatures goes full circle. If you first try to calm down a person purely through reason and see it not working, you intuit that humans are emotional. But when you try to understand the root of the emotional problem, you see that it's rational.