Humanity Has Failed

[zazen]

@PurpleTree  @Twentyfirst Every nation has its history and has done bad, genocides included. The difference is that the West continue to back and have full complicity in one today - its not history, but the current story.

The unique thing about the West is its consistency in behaving badly, where other nations behave so occasionally and contextually for various geopolitical or national security reasons (wars etc).

The current US admin are trying to mainline that there’s a genocide of white farmers in South Africa but can’t see the very obvious one going on in Gaza. This is why the world is angry at the West and why the West is being constantly critiqued - they got way more to be critiqued about.

The largest imperial offenders just moved the baton from the British Empire over to the US. The common rebuttal is that the West just have the technological means and power to ravage entire regions - and that any other ''civilization'' or peoples with equivalent power would do the same. Its a hypothetical, but even that hypothetical doesn’t hold up because today there is a comparable power which is China - and they aren't carpet bombing and regime changing nations.

People still assume China is a rising power vs a risen power on par with the West. So they will further say China just isn't strong enough. But the evidence of their risen status and power will become increasingly evident with one deep seek moment after another, and across domains. Westerners will struggle to accommodate this new reality into their ''spiral dynamic'' frameworks which assumes that the West is more ''developed'' but that reality will continually counter.

The abuse of power is typical, but the West's abuse is unique in some ways. They pose as being post-ideological whilst very much being ideological: liberal individualism, secularism, capitalism, and Western exceptionalism - all packaged as neutral “universal values.” And their expansion came with a cultural and racial dimension. For example whilst Islam also expanded, they kept local cultures intact and within a broader Islamic civilization - which is why you had Muslim Africans, Arabs, Persian, Turks and Asians. They also didn't have a racial supremacist bent to it whilst the West uniquely baked racial hierarchy into their imperial ideology.

Edited May 23 by zazen

[Lyubov]

I don’t like this humanity doomer perspective. Calling humanity the worst parasite, etc. A small percentage of ruling class politicians and elites don’t speak for all of humanity and people just living. Most people don’t have any power to make massive changes like this. It just has to play out and people will eventually mature. 

[thedoorsareopen]

I smell middle eastern groupthink in this thread. “The west is the biggest terrorist in the Middle East.” LOL. I know you are, but what am I?

It’s the same as how my dad and his relatives can only justify the Arab position by saying that 9/11 was a false flag perpetrated by “the Jews.”

You can only advance a point by rewriting history, conflating events, and then the old Arab chestnut of blaming literally the entirety of the last century of middle eastern events on western powers dividing up the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Handily absolving Arabs of any responsibility for governing themselves in the process. So, what, you’d rather be united in being ruled by the Turks? Or what are you saying, it was the UK’s responsibility to build your nation for you?

Yknow, being related to Arabs sucks. It’s not a fun culture. I wish I was half Brazilian, I could celebrate Carnival or something. But all my Arab relatives have to offer is emotional immaturity as a result of being from a society stunted by Islam, and grievances against the West. 
 

I’ve often wondered, why are countries like Japan and Ireland able to export their cultures world wide in a way that successfully portrays a positive image of those places, and makes people actually like them, but the Arabs cannot? Since I’ve been alive the main cultural worldwide impact of the Arabs has been 9/11 and 10/7. Shameful violent events.

I’ve often wondered, why is it so impossible for the Arab countries to get together and build an effective diplomatic corps that can lobby for their interests worldwide? I mean the West doesn’t control everything. You’ve got China, Russia, south east Asia, Europe who are a lot less sympathetic to Israel. So why can’t the Arabs get their shit together and act like a big boy nation? Why can’t the Arabs interact with other cultures in a way that doesn’t involve calendar dates commemorating murder?

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

Westerners love to repeat this lie because it hides their unique style of raping the earth. Like I said no other continent has had colonizers who stole two entire continents. It wasn't just British, it was French and Dutch and Spanish and others. No it's not normal at all. It's unique. 

Other colonizers integrated the conquered people into their lands and made them better. Why wouldn't they do it that way?

You are creating the rivalry. The west hates anything that isn't the west. Anything that isn't white. Anything that doesn't follow their hypocritical values. Why is Trump inviting South African whites but not other refugees? Why are all other countries in agreement that the west is batshit crazy.

Why is the rivalry the west (15% of world) vs the entire world (85% of rest of world) anyways? Why isn't it everyone vs china or everyone vs Peru. Why does it have to be every single country vs the west. It's because your societies have gone way to far and need to be stopped

Then you would be part of the few who thinks the hegemony shouldn't go on. Most westerners are willing to do anything to keep this charade up

I don't think we need to see somebody better before relinquishing the wests control. Sure Russia or the Arabs may do genocides but we don't know. What we do know for a fact is that the USA has been toppling and meddling since ww2 and we don't have to speculate about that. The US has killed over 5 million muslims/Arabs In the past 40 years. That's a genocide. It also caused the rising of terror groups in that region which kill even more people. I don't think those people care that the West sells them an iPhone for $1,000. I think the muslims just want to live comfortable lives not at the expense of people across the world who hate how they live. They live in accordance to their religion what does it matter to Americans who gave up their religion for atheism

Reading your post was a waste of time. Thanks and bye. And after reading it i have less respect for your cause again. 

[Lyubov]

6 minutes ago, thedoorsareopen said:

I smell middle eastern groupthink in this thread. “The west is the biggest terrorist in the Middle East.” LOL. I know you are, but what am I?

It’s the same as how my dad and his relatives can only justify the Arab position by saying that 9/11 was a false flag perpetrated by “the Jews.”

You can only advance a point by rewriting history, conflating events, and then the old Arab chestnut of blaming literally the entirety of the last century of middle eastern events on western powers dividing up the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Handily absolving Arabs of any responsibility for governing themselves in the process. So, what, you’d rather be united in being ruled by the Turks? Or what are you saying, it was the UK’s responsibility to build your nation for you?

Yknow, being related to Arabs sucks. It’s not a fun culture. I wish I was half Brazilian, I could celebrate Carnival or something. But all my Arab relatives have to offer is emotional immaturity as a result of being from a society stunted by Islam, and grievances against the West. 
 

I’ve often wondered, why are countries like Japan and Ireland able to export their cultures world wide in a way that successfully portrays a positive image of those places, and makes people actually like them, but the Arabs cannot? Since I’ve been alive the main cultural worldwide impact of the Arabs has been 9/11 and 10/7. Shameful violent events.

I’ve often wondered, why is it so impossible for the Arab countries to get together and build an effective diplomatic corps that can lobby for their interests worldwide? I mean the West doesn’t control everything. You’ve got China, Russia, south east Asia, Europe who are a lot less sympathetic to Israel. So why can’t the Arabs get their shit together and act like a big boy nation? Why can’t the Arabs interact with other cultures in a way that doesn’t involve calendar dates commemorating murder?

It’s very difficult to build political influence and really achieve anything grand, even state building, when your government structure is basically still stuck in the Middle Ages. It’s called the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Iran has a supreme leader and their religious mosque rules the country. You can’t build effective states like that. Japan and Ireland, people there share more power than it just being concentrated at the top. On top of that Arabs fight amongst themselves a ton. 

[PurpleTree]

50 minutes ago, zazen said:

@PurpleTree  @Twentyfirst Every nation has its history and has done bad, genocides included. The difference is that the West continue to back and have full complicity in one today - its not history, but the current story.

The unique thing about the West is its consistency in behaving badly, where other nations behave so occasionally and contextually for various geopolitical or national security reasons (wars etc)..

Stopped reading there. Lies again and again. Boring. Who is helping the most in the world? Who is building hospitals? Who made the red cross? Who is building animal shelters? Who abolished slavery. Who gives vaccines to the world. Who came up with human rights?Well mostly the west.

Edited May 23 by PurpleTree

[Apparition of Jack]

Everyone should just sit down and smoke a hookah 

Edited May 23 by Apparition of Jack

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Lyubov said:

It’s very difficult to build political influence and really achieve anything grand, even state building, when your government structure is basically still stuck in the Middle Ages. It’s called the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Iran has a supreme leader and their religious mosque rules the country. You can’t build effective states like that. Japan and Ireland, people there share more power than it just being concentrated at the top. On top of that Arabs fight amongst themselves a ton. 

I am sure Iran has their problems. How does that affect you? Let them figure it out. I don't think Arabs fight amongst each other as much as Europeans did last century. The Middle East is basically Arabs and Persians and minority of Jews. They have all been living a certain way forever and it's more tribal so if you have a democracy they will just vote for the tribal leader they already are under

In the west all the power is concentrated at the top too but the responsibility is at the bottom. How does that work?

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

I am sure Iran has their problems. How does that affect you? Let them figure it out.

They are a source and sponsor of Islamic radicalism and terror. They regard the USA and Israel as Satanic. So of course they will fight and kill Americans and Israelis with such an ideology.

Unfortunately the world is interconnected and you cannot just let radial Islamists with a medieval worldview run loose.

Iran's goal is to undermine the existence not only of Israel but also Saudi Arabia, which would destabilize global oil supply and lead to even more Islamic radicalism.

Edited May 23 by Leo Gura

[hundreth]

The question is what do you guys want? You want a "one-state" solution - the eradication of Israel as a Jewish state. That is never going to happen. They will fight for that as if their existence depends on it. (It might.)

So to that end, make up your minds.

Either you want a two-state solution, some other configuration - or you want war / the continuation of removing Palestinians. It's that simple. 

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, hundreth said:

The question is what do you guys want?

We want Israel to admit that they are doing ethnic cleansing and then to commit to stop ethnic cleansing in all its subtle forms.

Until this happens there can be no justice nor peace.

Edited May 23 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

The question is what do you guys want? You want a "one-state" solution - the eradication of Israel as a Jewish state. That is never going to happen. They will fight for that as if their existence depends on it. (It might.)

So to that end, make up your minds.

Either you want a two-state solution, some other configuration - or you want war / the continuation of removing Palestinians. It's that simple. 

Arab peace initiative was offered, and rejected by Israel.

 

[Karmadhi]

On 5/21/2025 at 5:41 AM, Leo Gura said:

It is not surprising that world governments do not want to fight Israel on behalf of terrorists.

Sorry Leo but the world has put 0 pressure on Israel to stop their insane amount of international law violations

The sad truth is that Israelis have an unproportionate amount of influence on the world medias, banks and governments which basically keep it immune to criticism other countries would have.

They need to do 10x the carnage Russia does before they even get a basic condemntation, yet alone actual consequences

The fundamental problem is Israeli's and Zionists interest groups hijacking most of the global power structures.

Just see how powerful AIPAC is in USA if you want concerete proof. Obama has admitted he was heavily supressed in his policies towards the conflict because of the political cost it had. And Obama seemed relatively pro Palestine (unlike Biden for example).

Murdoch the biggest media oligarch is a devoted Zionists

Most of Blackrock owners too

The list goes on

Blaming all this inhuman indifference to 1 terrorist attack is not looking the situation seriously enough.

Edited May 24 by Karmadhi

[Hojo]

Humanity is perfect its doing great. God will not let the last of those natives be kicked out of their homeland. USA and Canada let the natives stay if they kicked them out God would rain hell fire on them.

Edited May 24 by Hojo

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, hundreth said:

The question is what do you guys want? You want a "one-state" solution - the eradication of Israel as a Jewish state. That is never going to happen. They will fight for that as if their existence depends on it. (It might.)

So to that end, make up your minds.

Either you want a two-state solution, some other configuration - or you want war / the continuation of removing Palestinians. It's that simple.

I am personally for two states with 1968 borders. Also to kick out all the illegal settlers and ideally some reparations for all the damage and human suffering. But a proper two state, no shady or sneaky deals like in the Oslo accords. Nor the "We gave Gaza a state in 2005" bullshit.

And make sure that the state at first is aided by the Arabs so no Hamas 2.0 hijacks it. Most Arab countries dont support Hamas type groups so they can oversee that the state does not go towards radicalism.

I think that would solve this issue for good

[thedoorsareopen]

It's kinda funny how much people give a shit about a place that's smaller than fucking Maryland. I assume you guys are upset about the conflict in Sudan too, right? Or is that one not as sexy for the internet white knight brigade cuz the fighters on all sides are Muslim?

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Enough with these conspiracies.

[Twentyfirst]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They are a source and sponsor of Islamic radicalism and terror. They regard the USA and Israel as Satanic. So of course they will fight and kill Americans and Israelis with such an ideology.

Unfortunately the world is interconnected and you cannot just let radial Islamists with a medieval worldview run loose.

Iran's goal is to undermine the existence not only of Israel but also Saudi Arabia, which would destabilize global oil supply and lead to even more Islamic radicalism.

I think they would be the number 2 spot in destabilizing the Middle East. With Israel being number 1 by far. We don't know how the Middle East will look once the Palestinian struggle is solved so if USA really wanted that to happen they could and then after they can see where the chips fall. I predict if you solve Palestine then the Middle East will work themselves out just fine without any interference at all. It's hard to judge Iran when they are in the middle of the problem caused by USA and Israel. If there was complete peace in the region and Iran was still causing problems then that would say more about them

https://x.com/Recon_surv/status/1926121242764919001

[Twentyfirst]

12 hours ago, hundreth said:

The question is what do you guys want? You want a "one-state" solution - the eradication of Israel as a Jewish state. That is never going to happen. They will fight for that as if their existence depends on it. (It might.)

So to that end, make up your minds.

Either you want a two-state solution, some other configuration - or you want war / the continuation of removing Palestinians. It's that simple. 

The two state isn't going to happen with settlements in the West Bank. It has to be one state with right of return

Funny your options are either a configuration or the ethnic cleansing of the other side. It's unthinkable for you that Israel will implode on itself and lose. Israelis operate under a thoughtless plan where nothing can go wrong 

[zazen]

19 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Stopped reading there. Lies again and again. Boring. Who is helping the most in the world? Who is building hospitals? Who made the red cross? Who is building animal shelters? Who abolished slavery. Who gives vaccines to the world. Who came up with human rights?Well mostly the west.

Of course the West has also done good things, great things in fact. Credit where due - but accountability also where due. It’s natural to focus on the Wests crimes because they’re ongoing and global in their effects, and many of us are from the West.

It’s possible to build hospitals and bomb them at the same time. Never mind causing the instability and blood shed that makes people need to attend them. Never mind that sanctions cripple healthcare systems and supplies - collectively punishing 150 million people (Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria). Collective punishment seems to be something Israel and the US enjoy, just like India threatening water flow to 250million people in Pakistan - no wonder the three are aligned.

The West didn’t “invent” or come up with human rights - they simply codified them after the most horrific display of violence was committed in 2 world wars which started in the West, but which had global effects making them “worldly”.  Western civilization at the height of its rationality, science, and Enlightenment ideals produced mechanized death, racial extermination, and global exploitation.

Naturally then, when it wrote the UDHR it focused on preventing atrocity - “freedom from” horrors it had just inflicted.

The drafts for the declaration of human rights were made alongside China India and Lebanon who rounded things out to not be so individualistic. Rather than solely having negative centric freedoms from oppression (survival based), they introduced positive freedoms to live with dignity (thriving based) - which were actually resisted by the Western delegates.

It’s the civilizations that had long histories of moral philosophy, spiritual depth, and ethics of communal and social harmony that brought the aspirational rights to education, social safety nets, culture, rest and leisure - which the Western delegates resisted because “socialism” or “state obligation” ie capital being held accountable to benefit the many over the few.

Those rights have been erased in blood as fast as they were inked on paper, and continue to do so - from Vietnam to Gaza.

Being charitable and helping isn’t some value the West “brought online” - that’s how Wilber frames values in Spiral Dynamics. As if African tribes haven’t had their own systems of communal sharing or the following never existed: Hindu Dharma, Confucian benevolence, or Islamic the zakat / waqf system from 1’400 years ago. Historical amnesia caused by Western exceptionalism.

Pakistan’s Edhi Foundation operates the largest free ambulance service funded ground up by donations - as someone shared on another thread just yesterday. The Shaukat Khanum Cancer Hospital is also there for free cancer treatment - which is admirable in a relatively poorer nation. Meanwhile most Americans are drowning in medical debt. The largest NGO is BRAC from Bangladesh, which now serves over 100 million people in Asia and Africa. The most generous country voted for 7 consecutive years is Indonesia.

What’s notable about those three examples is that they’re not wealthy nations but developing, and are majority Muslim - which counters the narrative of “Islamic” cultures not being able to offer anything positive or do any good. Though, fundamentalist Islam is definitely an issue.

 

 

The bottom line is that the West nor anyone else has a monopoly on goodness - but the West in particular have monopolised the narrative around it. If it isn’t due to Western exceptionalism then it’s simply ignorance of the wider world, in particular with Americans being more isolated from it.

Edited May 24 by zazen