Humanity Has Failed

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I have lost you here. Think what you want.

Killing civilians is not proof it was pre-planned. For example if their orders were to go and kidnap idf but they recklessly endanger civilians and some soldiers massacre civilians, it wasn’t pre planned in the case even when they killed civilians. There was video of one Hamas commander telling his soldiers something about not killing civilians. Of course they very well ended up killing many, but that would indicate it wasn’t the original plan.

Most of the areas they attacked were military bases.

Feel free to show me evidence they went in planning on massacring civilians as the purpose of the attack.

The examples of idf massacres I linked were when there wasn’t a reasonable military target, indicating it was a pre-planned massacre of civilians. If we are counting any attack that also had civilians massacred, I could link 50 of those from Israel. But those can’t be assumed to be pre-planned as they can argue only the military purpose was planned and the rest was collateral.

Edited Monday at 06:42 AM by Raze

[Leo Gura]

@Raze You are consistently failing to see that these two groups of people have different levels of development and civilization. One is higher and one is lower. This is not merely my opinion. This will be true regardless of whatever moral arguments or historical facts you present. And the higher will conquer the lower. This is simply what's going to happen regardless of whatever you feel about it or how unjust it is.

Edited Monday at 06:45 AM by Leo Gura

[Joel3102]

If it’s that inevitable, isn’t the way this thing ultimately ends is the cleansing of the Gaza population elsewhere? Are we prolonging the inevitable??

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Raze You are consistently failing to see that these two groups of people have different levels of development and civilization. One is higher and one is lower. This is not merely my opinion. This will be true regardless of whatever moral arguments or historical facts you present. And the higher will conquer the lower. This is simply what's going to happen regardless of whatever you feel about it or how unjust it is.

This would mean accepting three assumptions that aren’t necessarily true

- greater technological and economic development means greater moral development, not necessarily, there are practical and strategic reasons beyond development that cause this. The moral development of the far right Israelis is probably not far off from Hamas, they just have much of economic support and a tactically advantageous position far above them. It’s actually happened many times where a colonial power lifts up one minority economically and technologically to use them to help subjugate other minorities, something like that happened in Rwanda, usually they had similar development but one ended up in a far more advantageous position politically and economically. 

- the lower developed civilization will always be morally worse than the higher developed civilization. Not true, a group with higher development can have a worse or equal moral position depending on their actions. Nazi Germany would have much higher development than say some African tribes that co-exist with each other with some tensions, yet Nazi Germanys positions and actions were morally worse. The Middle East had less development than Europe during the 19th and 20th century, but prior to Zionism they treated the Jewish minority much more morally than they were treated in Europe.

- Baseline development dictates victory. It doesn’t, there are many different factors. You can argue the Afrikaaners had higher development than black south Africans, yet apartheid ended. The French had higher development than the Algerians, yet French Algeria collapsed. Strategically Israel’s position of dominance over Palestinians depends on various things such as international economic support, military dominance, and social cohesion. These can all be damaged and lead to the failure of Zionism even if it has higher development as a society compared to native Palestinians simply because of long term strategic issues. 
 

Yes the average Hamas soldier is probably less developed than the average IDF soldier, Hamas soldiers are orphans raised in a ghetto and IDF soldiers can be from Europe or America and travel to first world countries. But if they both kill a civilian by choice, their actions would be equally morally wrong and illegal under any fair interpretation of international law. 

Edited Monday at 07:03 AM by Raze

[AerisVahnEphelia]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

This would mean accepting three assumptions that aren’t necessarily true

- greater technological and economic development means greater moral development, not necessarily, there are practical and strategic reasons beyond development that cause this. The moral development of the far right Israelis is probably not far off from Hamas, they just have much of economic support and a tactically advantageous position far above them.

- the lower developed civilization will always be morally worse than the higher developed civilization. Not true, a group with higher development can have a worse or equal moral position depending on their actions. Nazi Germany would have much higher development than say some African tribes that co-exist with each other with some tensions, yet Nazi Germanys positions and actions were morally worse. The Middle East had less development than Europe during the 19th and 20th century, but prior to Zionism they treated the Jewish minority much more morally than they were treated in Europe.

- Baseline development dictates victory. It doesn’t, there are many different factors. You can argue the Afrikaaners had higher development than black south Africans, yet apartheid ended. The French had higher development than the Algerians, yet French Algeria collapsed. Strategically Israel’s position of dominance over Palestinians depends on various things such as international economic support, military dominance, and social cohesion. These can all be damaged and lead to the failure of Zionism even if it has higher development as a society compared to native Palestinians.

Your assumptions are based on crude, simplistic morality.

What is considered "moral" is simply the behavior that best supports the maximization of structure within a society.

Nazi Germany had a much more developed moral framework than a primitive tribe. You're living in a fantasy most of those tribes kill each other over far more senseless reasons.

The Nazis killed because they believed in an ethnocentric love for their values and morals. Their worldview wasn't rooted in some cartoonish notion of evil. They fought for what they believed to be national identity and cultural survival.

Your idea that life resembles The Lord of the Rings is funny, but delusional.

Morality exists on a spectrum, and every moral framework is ultimately grounded in survival. Expansion and altruism only emerge when survival is already secured.

If China becomes the dominant power, it would mean the universe has selected against globalism not because globalism isn’t ideal, but because it proved to be morally decadent or structurally unstable. ( Not my claim, just devil advocate )

I believe the Western narrative might be superior in theory but it's dangerous and inherently unstable.

Even if the Western model is superior, the day Chinese citizens begin marching in the streets for causes like Black Lives Matter will mean they've reached such comfort and security that they can finally afford to care about others.

[Leo Gura]

Palestinians have lower moral development, even though Israel is doing ethnical cleansing and war crimes, and Palestinians have suffered great injustice.

Just because Israel does nasty stuff does not make Palestinians morally developed.

Palestinians cannot have high moral development because their survival is too difficult and their level of education and infrastructure too low. Which is why terrorism is their only option.

Edited Monday at 07:16 AM by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

Nazi Germany had a much more developed moral framework than a primitive tribe. You're living in a fantasy most of those tribes kill each other over far more senseless reasons.

I don't agree with that at all.

Nazi Germnay is at the bottom of the moral scale. Tribes are better because at least each tribe member can fight for his life equally and with honor.

The national structure isn't relevant to the question of development when it regresses into a mutant, cultish, sick form of such.

Edited Monday at 07:18 AM by Nivsch

[Raze]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Palestinians have lower moral development, even though Israel is doing ethnical cleansing and war crimes, and Palestinians have suffered great injustice.

Just because Israel does nasty stuff does not make Palestinians morally developed.

That doesn’t mean their actions or positions are automatically worse morally. 

An adult has higher moral development than a child, but if the adult rapes someone, their action was morally worse.

Even the major terrorism examples like suicide bombings or plane hijacking’s only showed up after they had already been occupied for decades btw. Your mistake is assuming that’s always an outgrowth of moral development as opposed to strategic positioning and desperation. If I took a highly morally developed ethics professor and locked him in a prison with no food and he starts cannibalizing the inmates would we say I guess he is less developed than the average joes outside the prison who don’t engage in that behavior? I don’t think so. 

Edited Monday at 07:19 AM by Raze

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

An adult has higher moral development than a child, but if the adult rapes someone, their action was morally worse.

But he isn't morally developed than the child. 

There are everywhere children who are like little Shamans who can teach many adults about moral and developed way of looking at the world.

Edited Monday at 07:26 AM by Nivsch

[Apparition of Jack]

One thing that has bothered me about the pro-Palestinian side (although I’m generally sympathetic to them) is that they’re acting like this is the first time ever civilians have been caught up in warfare.

I mean, there’s even tweets from Hasan from 2012 making a joke about Obama’s military intervention trying to “stop Assad from committing war crimes against civilians”, but now a decade later he’s saying the world is failing for not doing the exact same thing he made fun of before?

Where was the outrage for the Syrian Civil War? The rise of ISIS? The Libyan civil war? The uprising in Burma? The South Sudanese conflict? Bosnia?

There have been on-going atrocities committed against civilians every single year every single one of us has been alive, but then apparently suddenly, in October 2023, everyone grows a conscience? Where was the outrage for all the other violence, all those countless other times? What makes Israel so much more evil than the South Sudanese military, or Burmese junta, or Assadist forces? Hell, what about the ongoing ethnic cleanings of Uighurs and Tibetans in the PRC? Hell, what about RUSSIA? They’re also genuinely trying to wipe the Ukrainians off the map. Why do the others get a pass or ignored but Israel is the only villain?

Edited Monday at 07:28 AM by Apparition of Jack

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Raze said:

Even the major terrorism examples like suicide bombings or plane hijacking’s only showed up after they had already been occupied for decades btw.

That's fine, but it doesn't change their situation and their low level currently. Yes, Israel contributes greatly to making their level low. But also, it was never high to begin with. The whole Middle East is a swarm of low development, period. The only reason Israel has high development is because most of them are Europeans.

In the end European development simply trumps Arab development. There's no way around that. Regardless of the morals or reasons.

Edited Monday at 07:28 AM by Leo Gura

[AerisVahnEphelia]

15 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I don't agree with that at all.

Nazi Germnay is in the bottom of the moral scale. Tribes are better because at least each tribe member can fight for his life equally and honorly.

Nazi Germany is almost equal to Israel in terms of development though Israel is clearly ahead, simply because it can afford to be.

I don’t subscribe to the idea of the Nazis as the ultimate embodiment of evil. There were massacres and horrors before them, and they continue to happen.

I believe Japan is still very close to Nazi Germany ( I could be more nuanced but I don't have time for it, they are obviously beyond it but still extremely blue/orange ). People tend to paint Hitler and the Nazis in pure “red” terms, but structurally, Germany was deeply "blue," and Hitler operated on an "orange" level (strategic thinking), with traces of "green" such as his genuine concern for nature, animal welfare, and traditional ecological balance—even if he functioned roughly 60% in "red."

The Nazi regime implemented one of the first comprehensive environmental protection laws, restricted animal experimentation, promoted organic farming methods..

The mere fact that he enacted laws to protect entire ecosystems and animals proves he wasn’t a purely evil, narcissistic monster. ( Not removing the fact that he could be both )

That’s hard to accept for crude moralists who want to see the world like a cartoon.

Edited Monday at 07:27 AM by AerisVahnEphelia

[Raze]

Just now, Apparition of Jack said:

One thing that has bothered me about the pro-Palestinian side (although I’m generally sympathetic to them) is that they’re acting like this is the first time ever civilians have been caught up in warfare.

I mean, there’s even tweets from Hasan from 2012 making a joke about Obama’s military intervention trying to “stop Assad from committing war crimes against civilians”, but now a decade later it’s apparently the biggest moral atrocity ever?

Where was the outrage for the Syrian Civil War? The rise of ISIS? The Libyan civil war? The uprising in Burma? The South Sudanese conflict? Bosnia?

There have been on-going atrocities committed against civilians every single year every single one of us has been alive, but then apparently suddenly, in 2023, everyone grows a conscience? Where was the outrage for all the other violence, all those countless other times? What makes Israel so much more evil than the South Sudanese military, or Burmese junta, or Assadist forces? Hell, what about the ongoing ethnic cleanings of Uighurs and Tibetans in the PRC? Why do the others get a pass or ignored but Israel is the only villain?

- western governments are funding and arming Israel, so citizens of those countries are implicated

- more people died in Syria, but Syria has 10x the population as Gaza, In Syria 80% of casualties were male, in Gaza its 40%

[Leo Gura]

Nazis were an exceptionally toxic developmental offshoot/freak-show.

Germany was very developed pre and post Nazis.

Similar to how MAGA is an exceptually stupid form of American development.

Occassionally you will have these stupid toxic offshoots. These are mostly noisy outliers.

Edited Monday at 07:32 AM by Leo Gura

[Twentyfirst]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Palestinians have lower moral development, even though Israel is doing ethnical cleansing and war crimes, and Palestinians have suffered great injustice.

Just because Israel does nasty stuff does not make Palestinians morally developed.

Palestinians cannot have high moral development because their survival is too difficult and their level of education and infrastructure too low. Which is why terrorism is their only option.

Palestinians are much more hospitable people than Jews or anyone else in the world. Levant is known for hospitality and being welcoming. They have super high morals and purity standards . It's bred into them at birth. Look it up or ask around

[Apparition of Jack]

10 minutes ago, Raze said:

- western governments are funding and arming Israel, so citizens of those countries are implicated

- more people died in Syria, but Syria has 10x the population as Gaza, In Syria 80% of casualties were male, in Gaza its 40%

I’m sure if you dig deep enough Western powers are implicated in all those other conflicts, too. Granted, Israel has a unique connection with the West those other countries don’t, but are we also to say that somehow a Palestinian’s life is worth more than a Syrian’s life was worth when they were subject to much similar treatment under Assad’s brutal crackdown?

My point isn’t to say that it’s wrong to criticise what Israel’s doing, my point is that it feels hypocritical to focus just on Israel when ethnic cleansings are happening everywhere, for much similar reasons.

Where’s the pressure to stop the Burmese military killing pro-democracy protesters? Where’s the pressure to stop the Ethiopian government killing ethnic Tigrays? Are those governments somehow less “evil” just because we don’t know anything about them?

EDIT: This is what Ethiopia is doing in Tigray, with literally more civilians dying than in Gaza. Where’s the pressure to stop this bloodshed?

 

Edited Monday at 07:39 AM by Apparition of Jack

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Leo Gura not enough to stop them from happening apparently. 

Which is something to be concerned about. 

Wanting to build the roof when the wood foundation are still having worms problems lead to this. 

Ironically hyper ethnocentric society created the idea of globalism. 

 

Edited Monday at 07:33 AM by AerisVahnEphelia

[Twentyfirst]

8 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

One thing that has bothered me about the pro-Palestinian side (although I’m generally sympathetic to them) is that they’re acting like this is the first time ever civilians have been caught up in warfare.

I mean, there’s even tweets from Hasan from 2012 making a joke about Obama’s military intervention trying to “stop Assad from committing war crimes against civilians”, but now a decade later he’s saying the world is failing for not doing the exact same thing he made fun of before?

Where was the outrage for the Syrian Civil War? The rise of ISIS? The Libyan civil war? The uprising in Burma? The South Sudanese conflict? Bosnia?

There have been on-going atrocities committed against civilians every single year every single one of us has been alive, but then apparently suddenly, in October 2023, everyone grows a conscience? Where was the outrage for all the other violence, all those countless other times? What makes Israel so much more evil than the South Sudanese military, or Burmese junta, or Assadist forces? Hell, what about the ongoing ethnic cleanings of Uighurs and Tibetans in the PRC? Hell, what about RUSSIA? They’re also genuinely trying to wipe the Ukrainians off the map. Why do the others get a pass or ignored but Israel is the only villain?

It's skewed civilian deaths. Oct 7 resulted in 1,000 deaths vs Gaza at 50,000

9/11 was 3,000 deaths vs Iraq at 1m

The entire history of Israel vs Palestine for 80 years has been a 1 to 10 death ratio 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Palestinians are much more hospitable people than Jews or anyone else in the world. Levant is known for hospitality and being welcoming. They have super high morals and purity standards . It's bred into them at birth. Look it up or ask around

That's not the same thing as development.

Being indoctirnated to be kind like a robot is not serious development.

How welcoming are they to gays, mouthy women, or atheists?

Edited Monday at 07:36 AM by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@AerisVahnEphelia Luckily development is measured first and foremost by moral clarity, because this is the deepest sign of an ability to truly connect the dots. Your message shows a misinterpretation of what development is.

Edited Monday at 07:35 AM by Nivsch