Humanity Has Failed

[Twentyfirst]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That's not the same thing as development.

Being indoctirnated to be kind like a robot is not serious development.

It's not indoctrination in the same way Asians have it. In Asia they have a term called "saving face"

It's just genuine desire for hospitality with only a tad strictness/rigidity 

[Twentyfirst]

7 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I’m sure if you dig deep enough Western powers are implicated in all those other conflicts, too. Granted, Israel has a unique connection with the West those other countries don’t, but are we also to say that somehow a Palestinian’s life is worth more than a Syrian’s life was worth when they were subject to much similar treatment under Assad’s brutal crackdown?

My point isn’t to say that it’s wrong to criticise what Israel’s doing, my point is that it feels hypocritical to focus just on Israel when ethnic cleansings are happening everywhere, for much similar reasons.

Where’s the pressure to stop the Burmese military killing pro-democracy protesters? Where’s the pressure to stop the Ethiopian government killing ethnic Tigrays? Are those governments somehow less “evil” just because we don’t know anything about them?

The media controls all of this outrage. How often do you scroll on social media to see Burma?

Btw Palestinians have been the forgotten people for far longer than they have been in the spotlight

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@Twentyfirst no it's not I lived in Japan one year. The French have honest respect but not tamed to be polite, hence everyone will tell you French are uneducated and morally inferior. 

Respect and politeness are too different things. 

One is genuine and more grounded in truth ( honest love ), the other one is coming from conditioning ( fear, lies )

France is way more developed than Japan in a pure moral ground aspect, like double development.

But everyone will tell you Japan is better and some non sense like that, if you think the French are morally inferior to Japan you understand absolutely nothing about the essence of moral virtue. 

--

For example one of my concern :

I'll destroy your ideas and frame not to be superior to you but because I love you and waste my attention on making you more conscious of what reality is for you to do better decisions. 

Edited May 26 by AerisVahnEphelia

[Apparition of Jack]

12 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

The media controls all of this outrage. How often do you scroll on social media to see Burma?

Btw Palestinians have been the forgotten people for far longer than they have been in the spotlight

That’s kinda my point. Again, I’m not saying what Israel is doing isn’t wrong, I’m just saying so much of the momentum against it seems to be wrapped up in naive group-think and too many people wanting an “enemy” to fight without really thinking about the nuances of the situation. 
 

Also just to be clear, I am an anti-Zionist and think the creation of Israel was a huge fuckup that caused far more problems than it solved. I just find it weird that this current war is portrayed as some “unique evil” when atrocities have been happening forever. 

Edited May 26 by Apparition of Jack

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

@Twentyfirst no it's not I lived in Japan one year. The French have honest respect but not tamed to be polite, hence everyone will tell you French are uneducated and morally inferior. 

Respect and politeness are too different things. 

One is genuine and more grounded in truth ( honest love ), the other one is coming from conditioning ( fear, lies )

France is way more developed than Japan in a pure moral ground aspect, like double development.

But everyone will tell you Japan is better and some non sense like that, if you think the French are morally inferior to Japan you understand absolutely nothing about the essence of moral virtue. 

--

For example one of my concern :

I'll destroy your ideas and frame not to be superior to you but because I love you and waste my attention on making you more conscious of what reality is for you to do better decisions. 

I think you misunderstood me. The term saving face originates from East Asia. Meaning that they are polite because it's embarrassing not to be and they will do anything to keep up that mask

[Twentyfirst]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How welcoming are they to gays, mouthy women, or atheists?

Gays exist but super underground. They can't come out of the closet to their family or the society 

Arab/Muslim women can nag, be hard headed, bratty. It's more of a "don't embarrass or usurp me in public". The men are also more resilient and just do their own thing regardless so the women realize it doesn't work so they don't do it as often

They don't understand atheism. They only understand their own religion and how other people have their own religion. If someone says something atheistic they don't understand that dimension of reality in the same way a normal consciousness person has no clue about enlightenment even if you say plainly "you don't exist you are just pure aware consciousness" they will just brush it off or laugh it off and continue their life 

[Twentyfirst]

19 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

That’s kinda my point. Again, I’m not saying what Israel is doing isn’t wrong, I’m just saying so much of the momentum against it seems to be wrapped up in naive group-think and too many people wanting an “enemy” to fight without really thinking about the nuances of the situation. 
 

Also just to be clear, I am an anti-Zionist and think the creation of Israel was a huge fuckup that caused far more problems than it solved. I just find it weird that this current war is portrayed as some “unique evil” when atrocities have been happening forever. 

The only time Palestinians get any attention is when they commit terror acts of extreme horror. Even then the supervisor of that attention will go to the Zionists. So the news channels will ask Netanyahu himself "why did Palestinians do this" rather than the Palestinians themselves. Why was the Abraham accords done without any mention of Palestinians? Why are they blaming Iran for Hamas rather than the occupation? This is a strange conflict as the international community started it by allowing the land to be partitioned to two states and only one side got a state so it has to be a conflict not only on land, weapons, and armies but also media, politics, and allies. Other countries can veto whether or not Palestinians have a state. Even the holocaust which sparked all this is an international event so Palestinians have to defend that they weren't a part of that. The solution is never and was never going to be between the forces at play but something the entire world has to decide. Without international interference it's an endless war and even with international interference it's been endless 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjmM__ZSZYk

Edited May 26 by Twentyfirst

[Leo Gura]

@Twentyfirst How polite are they to women who have been raped?

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[Twentyfirst]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Twentyfirst How polite are they to women who have been raped?

It's too uncommon for me to know. There are too many safeguards in place. A woman can't be alone in a room with a man that is not her relative or husband. She can't be in the front seat of a taxi. She can't get close enough to a man to be groped. She won't be in a dark club with drunk men. There are religious and cultural restrictions for men to not harm women along with harsh punishments by the law. No sleep overs allowed to her girl friends house if her friend has a man living in the house. They do everything possible to prevent it. If it does happen I imagine it's taken care of by the law as well as extremely hidden. In Islam you can't really reveal other people's sins

Of course there are people that will be unjust to the woman. It's the equivalent of the beer belly cross eyed hillbilly with a shotgun in Alabama. Every country has this 

With that being said. It's definitely a patriarchy with strict male gender roles and strict female gender roles 

[Apparition of Jack]

18 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

The only time Palestinians get any attention is when they commit terror acts of extreme horror. Even then the supervisor of that attention will go to the Zionists. So the news channels will ask Netanyahu himself "why did Palestinians do this" rather than the Palestinians themselves. Why was the Abraham accords done without any mention of Palestinians? Why are they blaming Iran for Hamas rather than the occupation? This is a strange conflict as the international community started it by allowing the land to be partitioned to two states and only one side got a state so it has to be a conflict not only on land, weapons, and armies but also media, politics, and allies. Other countries can veto whether or not Palestinians have a state. Even the holocaust which sparked all this is an international event so Palestinians have to defend that they weren't a part of that. The solution is never and was never going to be between the forces at play but something the entire world has to decide. Without international interference it's an endless war and even with international interference it's been endless 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjmM__ZSZYk

Again, I fully accept all of this. What Israel has done to the Palestinians over the last 80 years has been horrific, to put it mildly.

But I’m also saying that Israel isn’t unique in its violence it commits against defenceless populations. When was the last time you heard anything about Tigray rights, or self-determination, or anything like that? When was the last time you heard about the oppressive and violent measures the Ethiopian state takes against them, dehumanises them, cuts off their food and water supplies and forces them to flee? The situations in Gaza and northern Ethiopia are incredibly similar.

And yet we don’t hear a peep from progressives about it. Ethiopian PM Abiy Ahmed is to Tigray people what Netanyahu is to Palestinian people. And yet I bet up until this conversation you’d never heard of his name in your life.

[Twentyfirst]

14 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Again, I fully accept all of this. What Israel has done to the Palestinians over the last 80 years has been horrific, to put it mildly.

But I’m also saying that Israel isn’t unique in its violence it commits against defenceless populations. When was the last time you heard anything about Tigray rights, or self-determination, or anything like that? When was the last time you heard about the oppressive and violent measures the Ethiopian state takes against them, dehumanises them, cuts off their food and water supplies and forces them to flee? The situations in Gaza and northern Ethiopia are incredibly similar.

And yet we don’t hear a peep from progressives about it. Ethiopian PM Abiy Ahmed is to Tigray people what Netanyahu is to Palestinian people. And yet I bet up until this conversation you’d never heard of his name in your life.

I have spent my life attempting to not fail humanity in the same way that humanity has failed humanity 

If enough people understand awakening then all the asleep problems will work themselves out at the same time. But if you try to solve problem by problem it will be like whack a mole where once you fix something another one appears

May ALL beings achieve enlightenment in this lifetime without any exclusion 
 

 

Edited May 26 by Twentyfirst

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

It's too uncommon for me to know.

It's not uncommon, they just kill you if you speak up. Which is why you don't know.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Nazis were an exceptionally toxic developmental offshoot/freak-show.

Germany was very developed pre and post Nazis.

Similar to how MAGA is an exceptually stupid form of American development.

Occassionally you will have these stupid toxic offshoots. These are mostly noisy outliers.

And terrorists from the Middle East aren’t noisy outliers? Jihadists aren’t outliers out of 2 billion Muslims?

When Westerners do bad it’s excepionalised to be the exception, when non-Westerners do bad it’s generalized as the society being low on moral development.

If Germany can produce Nazism out of privilege and still be called “developed,” how do we justify calling an oppressed population “morally underdeveloped” when their worst elements arise out of desperation, not dominance?

Nazis had less excuses as they weren’t stateless or colonized, and had national sovereignty. They were one of the most industrialized, literate, ethnically unified nation states ie “developed” on the horizontal plane, yet committed the worst of the worst on the vertical plane of moral development. I think generalizing development by conflating the two is the issue.

ISIS and al-Qaeda came from desperate conditions of despair and humiliation rooted in foreign occupation, colonization, and the collapse of Muslim sovereignty - which Bin Laden gave voice to. It was a legitimate contextual grievance that mutated into fanatic extremism and was dealt with in illegitimate ways - terrorism.

Are we to assume the moral position towards colonization is to sit down and do nothing..which isn’t moral development but moral pacification - a colonisers wet dream of course.

Islam in particular isn’t a pacifist oriented religion - it doesn’t have the ethos of turn the other cheek and spread the ass cheeks vibe. Or meditate in a cave like Bhudda whilst the village down the mountain burns because realities non-dual lol

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Believe it or not, as bad as Israel is, they do not hijack airplanes nor invade Palestine in rampages shooting everyone in sight in the head. And their intelligence agencies DO take measures to avoid civilian casualities when planning assassinations. Civilians still end up killed, but efforts are made. Palestinians make no such efforts and even target civilians to take hostage.

Generalizing again with word Palestinians rather than attributing terrorist acts to the particular off shoot group - Hamas.

Also, when there’s a massive power asymmetry, the weaker side doesn’t get to choose “moral” or “clean” tactics - they’re left with desperate, asymmetric ones.

Imagine having no intelligence to pin point and target the state level perpetrators who have caged you in like fish and shoot you in the bowl from time to time, let alone the means (army, navy, airforce) to even go after them. The heck they supposed to do? And the world’s superpower determines if they have a life of dignity or not by vetoing their right to self determination. 

The world tells these people via internationally enshrined law that THEY are the ones who have the right to self determination in this situation - but when they resist those in the way of denying them that right, by asymmetric and desperate measures, their told their less morally developed.

Maybe I should occupy your house so I can observe your moral development. Speaking of homes - I have been taken in like literal family by Middle Easterners to an extent I’ve never experienced in the West. Some of the most loving warm people on the planet.

Edited May 26 by zazen

[zazen]

@Twentyfirst @Leo Gura

Many Red piller based bros agree with this sentiment. Should we now generalize to call Westerners low on development or are red pillers just another toxic off shoot of Western civilization?

 Like I said above - When Westerners do or think bad it’s excepionalised to be the exception, when non-Westerners do or think bad it’s generalized as the society being low on moral development.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, zazen said:

Also, when there’s a massive power asymmetry, the weaker side doesn’t get to choose “moral” or “clean” tactics - they’re left with desperate, asymmetric ones.

Exactly what Mossad, Shin Bet, IDF, and Zionists tell themselves.

[Leo Gura]

@zazen If you can't see that Palestinians have very low development as a whole, I don't know how to help you.

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not uncommon, they just kill you if you speak up. Which is why you don't know.

If so then it will depend on the clan (Family/extended family/friends of family). Clans will do their own thing and some are saintly throughout and some aren't. But even clans are diverse so you may have women in full covering, just head covering, and no head covering in the same clan

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

@Twentyfirst @Leo Gura

Many Red piller based bros agree with this sentiment. Should we now generalize to call Westerners low on development or are red pillers just another toxic off shoot of Western civilization?

 Like I said above - When Westerners do or think bad it’s excepionalised to be the exception, when non-Westerners do or think bad it’s generalized as the society being low on moral development.

Islam/Arab is not red pill. Tate visited Dubai and tried to export a shoddy system biased through the lens of his ego. Red pillars will say "islam was right the whole time" or they will say "we should give these feminists islam to show them true oppression" both statements are just a red pillers way of conquering a woman without considering her at all in defense of feminists attacking masculinity 

Women are empowered. Just empowered to do different things. Mostly being a homemaker and supporting the community but they get full support, respect, and benefits to do these things. Even when they go out of the bounds of this like being business owners or employees they still retain their primary roles and would sacrifice the business for the primary role if needed

Women are allowed to exit the whole thing (at least certain clans) but they have to go through specific channels to do so. Sort of like a whistleblower. A lot is hidden but not enough to where outsiders can't come and visit and see how things operate. It's hard to understand the Middle East if you don't go there and have someone from there explaining why all the rules are in place (which I see now you have done)

The Israelis send their women to dance in uniform on tik tok, kill Palestinians, and get their legs blown off which Arabs would never do

Edited May 26 by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

And terrorists from the Middle East aren’t noisy outliers? Jihadists aren’t outliers out of 2 billion Muslims?

When Westerners do bad it’s excepionalised to be the exception, when non-Westerners do bad it’s generalized as the society being low on moral development.

I think this is a good point. If muslims were really cavemen with wooden clubs all it would take is the entire civilian population, 500m, of the Middle East to storm and eliminate 8 million jews. Most people in the area just to truly want to work, study, grow families, and have gatherings like I said before. That's about the 4 things that they do. They want a solution but would rather have it be by governments than violent factions but at the same time a thirsty man will drink anything

It's just a land grab. Palestinians are fighting for their land back. What exactly is Israel fighting for again? Or it's only for defense? Well the best way to defend is just give them a state of their own. Israel has 78%, more than enough for them to be satisfied 

Edited May 26 by Twentyfirst

[zazen]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Palestinians have lower moral development, even though Israel is doing ethnical cleansing and war crimes, and Palestinians have suffered great injustice.

Just because Israel does nasty stuff does not make Palestinians morally developed.

Palestinians cannot have high moral development because their survival is too difficult and their level of education and infrastructure too low. Which is why terrorism is their only option.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@zazen If you can't see that Palestinians have very low development as a whole, I don't know how to help you.

I agree that they have lower development as a whole. Which is why I think distinctions are required between moral and material development - the horizontal and the vertical. But whats being posited here is that they have low moral development in particular - Raze put it very well that being materially deprived doesn't necessarily mean having less moral capacity. 

Like you said on the previous page - terrorism is their only option. Why? Because they're left little to no option - but you conflate this to mean they must have low moral development. The point is - Israel is granted the privilege of being violent while still “morally developed” but that nuance is denied to the Palestinians. Even though its the Palestinians who are in a much more dire material situation where their morality is severely tested.

Most materially and morally developed people who are then materially oppressed and suppressed, would be pushed to act immorally out of desperation. Which is why I also made the point about the Nazi's being materially developed yet acting morally abhorrent.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Exactly what Mossad, Shin Bet, IDF, and Zionists tell themselves.

The point being?

Of course they do - it’s their cynically deceptive use of delusion to justify their domination.

In reality the other side is objectively weaker which isn’t even debatable:

 

Also, states are held to certain standards that non-state actors or an entirely stateless people aren't. Them acting restrained isn't a direct indication of their moral development - as their systemically embedded to an international frame work as a nation state. They need to at least perform restraint or the appearance of it ie ''warnings sent before we bomb your home, which your a refugee in because we drove you out some decades ago and plan on doing so again''.

That's what their doing now. Scooting them over to Rafah which was a previous safe zone but now an area of rubble, so their at the edge of the Sinai desert. This is no sign of moral development just because its done in a way that skirts under the radar of international law or scrutiny - though the world is hip to that game now. Never mind the recent polls by Hareetz showing the moral development at a societal level:

''An overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews support the transfer of Palestinians from Gaza, according to a poll by Pennsylvania State University.

The survey, conducted in March and published by Haaretz newspaper on Thursday, found that 82 percent of Israeli Jews support the forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.

Meanwhile, 47 percent of Israeli Jews answered yes to the question: "Do you support the claim that the [Israeli army] in conquering an enemy city, should act in a manner similar to the way the Israelites did when they conquered Jericho under the leadership of Joshua, ie to kill all its inhabitants?" The reference is to the biblical account of the conquest of Jericho.''

Edited May 26 by zazen