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So much this! Seeking is dangerous, but off-course some seeking can help, and be required to start even. The danger of seeking to much, is that you start to identify as a seeker. "Being spiritual" becomes your identity, it becomes a way to value yourself as a self. This will create the biggest ego blockage there is, and is the ultimate ironic joke when trying to become enlightened (for which there is no trying). It can become impossible to escape from this, because everything such a person does will only strengthen the ego. Meditation, contemplation, they all will become tools in the domain of the ego then. The more you practice the stronger this ego will become, because it is how it has learned to identify itself with spirituality itself. It is part of its habits, its values, it very core to "be spiritual". Many new-agy types are fully stuck in this mode, (without meaning to insult anyone). It is not such a bad state to be in, it can be blissful/peaceful even. This state is usually only broken down when something very emotional happens, that shows the incompleteness of this imagined/projected bliss. That is not to say that meditation or contemplation are inherently to be avoided fully. But be careful once the ego or mind claims them for itself. By ego, i never mean some strange thing to fight against, it is just the human part of us, the monkey, or unconscious thought-stories. People need to feel valuable to be happy, and the ego provides this function in a way. If you get a sense of achievement or pride from long meditation sessions, if it gives you perceived value over others, even if ever slightly, tread carefully..

@Not a shaolin monk If you increase your awareness to a high enough level "you" will stop planning. There is no "you" that plans. Watch planning happen instead. The Self is aware of planning but does not plan. But feed your mind the right knowledge so it can use it. So it is good to learn about strategizing and planning. But "you" do not strategize or plan. That's an illusion. It's almost like knowledge is food for the subconscious mind, but it is never acted on consciously. So, you do want to learn about planning and strategizing to have those options there, but "you" do not strategize or plan. It just happens, there is no "doer". There is only an observer. The Self watches all this happen like sipping a cocktail on a beach just people watching, in total openness, acceptance, and bliss. There is nothing to do. Watch this video. It made a huge impact on me. And watch this one.

Perhaps we are just limited by language here, and i am just misunderstanding your intentions/meanings. Sometimes i think you know what you are talking about, other times it seems just totally besides the point. Why? How? This is a strange belief of the mind. This is true, words are from the mind, they cannot describe enlightenment. That which creates words cannot become enlightened anyway. The moment you speak, write or think about enlightenment, duality is created. Who exactly is doing al this stuff? Is that you really? But who is doing things, who is imagining things? Who is being effortless, or who is using effort? Is that really the big you? Is the big you ever doing anything, aside from being (alive)? Is the big you even seeing, or is it aware of a monkey's sight creating seeing? If you do all that stuff and think it has much value for reaching enlightenment, you are just a monkey thinking it is aware of itself. Its not wrong for the monkey to do stuff, or to have fun in life, or to do activities that puts it in a mental state of bliss or calm or unity. But it has little to do with enlightenment, its more about manufacturing pleasurable feelings/thoughts to be aware of. What enlightenment is, is disidentification with the monkey, and awakening to the true self that is watching the monkey run around in life. It is the realization, that we are actually the entire world the monkey is running around in. It does not really matter one bit what the monkey is doing after that, from an enlightenment perspective. And there is more than one monkey running around in this existence. From a perspective of the monkey's life, regarding, money, success and the monkey's emotions, the monkey can still work to better itself. It can perhaps even become aware it is just a dream, while trying to be a good dream. But this is more an indirect result of enlightenment, rather than enlightenment itself, and it can be done without enlightenment entirely. This is why all those activities are just mental exercises and irrelevant. The monkey can never become anything more than a monkey, it cannot become enlightenment. You cannot be enlightened as a human being, because you are not a human being. But we were never really the human being to begin with, we are that which is aware, consciousness, one.

@Joseph Maynor Yoga means union, the science of union. Meditation is the most supreme phenomenon as far as union with reality is concerned. Meditation is the god of yoga. But yoga has fallen into wrong hands, and not only recently – for centuries it has been in the wrong hands. The original fault must be with the founder, Patanjali himself. Patanjali has divided yoga into eight parts. His division is clear-cut, very scientific, but he was not really aware of human stupidity. He started with the body – and that's the right way to start. The first part of yoga must be physiological because man lives on the circumference, in the body, so the work has to start there, only then can it reach the mind. And when one has gone beyond the body and beyond the mind, then the third, meditation, happens. So according to Patanjali the first part belongs to the body. But he was not clearly aware that millions of people would remain entangled with the first part. Hence yoga has become synonymous with yoga postures: people standing on their heads and doing all sorts of contortions. That has become synonymous with yoga. It is not a true yoga, it is just the preface, the introductory part; and the person who thinks the introduction is the whole book is idiotic. But Patanjali did not warn people. If he had warned people it would have been better. People like Patanjali believe in others' intelligence – which is not there! They trust. Their trust is immense, their trust is as immense as people's stupidity is! They respect people's intelligence. So he did not warn people, but the warning was absolutely necessary: 'Don't get entangled in the physiological part.' A few people, only very few – if a hundred people become interested in yoga then only one person will get out of the physiological entanglement. And that one person will become entangled in the psychological. If a hundred persons are entangled in the psychological then only one person gets out of it...and only when you get out of the mind does the real yoga begin. The physiological part of yoga will give you great physiological powers; it can make you live a really long, healthy life. But what are you going to do with a long life? If you are idiotic, instead of being idiotic for seventy years you will be idiotic for two hundred years. It is not going to help anybody; it will be a calamity. Yoga can make a person live long, but what will you do? That physiological part should not be paid so much attention. Yes, a little bit is good to keep physically fit, but just a little bit; otherwise it is a vast jungle. One can be lost in its subtleties, in its complexities. The second part is even vaster than the physiological. If you get into it you can have many psychic powers, you can read people's thoughts. But what is the point? Your own rubbish is so much, what is the point of reading somebody else's rubbish? He is tortured by his rubbish and you are reading his thoughts – and you think you are doing something great! The real thing is to get rid of thoughts, not to read them. One even has to get rid of one's own thoughts; what is the point of reading other people's thoughts? And what is there? You can stand by the side of the road and you can see a man is walking along and thinking of his dog – so what? If you listen to people's thoughts, what will you find? Somebody is thinking of his cow, somebody is thinking of his buffalo, somebody is thinking of his wife, somebody is thinking of somebody else's wife! And you are thinking what they are thinking! Maybe the other person is also a yogi and is reading somebody else's thoughts. Then things become very complicated! The physiological part is ordinary, the psychological part is ordinary. Both can give power, but power is not the goal of meditation. Power is politics, all kinds of power is politics. And power corrupts – all kinds of power – it corrupts unconditionally and absolutely. It always corrupts. Hence I say the only essential thing, the real core of all religion, of all yoga, of all methods of search, is meditation. One should put aside everything non-essential. You can use things as stepping stones, but not more than that – just like jumping boards. You need not bother too much about them. Your whole concern should be one-pointed; you should move like an arrow towards meditation. Only then in this small life, with so little time, power and energy available and with so many problems surrounding you, can you hope that the arrow will reach the target. The moment you know something of meditation – not about it, but the very taste of it – a great release comes. a great relief comes. Suddenly all tensions disappear: anxieties, anguishes, are found no more. Even if you want them just for a change, you cannot find them. I have tried and failed! Sometimes I try very hard to find some anxiety but I cannot, it simply does not work. I have tried all possible ways, from this side and that side, but I come to the same end: it does not work. Once you have tasted meditation it is impossible for you to be in any misery. Bliss becomes inevitable, a natural showering, and it goes on showering like flowers showering from the sky. Osho, Nirvana: Now or Never

We are born alone, we live alone, we die alone. As a person, who's highest held beliefs are in loyalty and family is faced with this, it is heartbreaking to hear. More than heartbreaking, world shattering. I lose sense of everything I hold dear. You could say it's contradictory but solitude is commonplace for me. I endure it the majority of the time and enjoy it. I understand everyone has their lives to live. However, this solitude that I experience daily is nothing compared to the solitude that makes my heart sink when I know that I will experience death alone without my family and friends. To think that I will one day live in a world where my family and friends have passed away and I will never be with them again is the most incomprehensible, incommunicable experience that is. I constantly see people who are on their journeys of self actualisation as expressing death as the ultimate liberation meaning the end of suffering, unlimited freedom, unlimited choices, and eternal bliss. This brings me no comfort to hear this. Maybe I simply do not truly comprehend this definition. However, I would like to ask: Will the journey to self actualisation, as soul destroying it is to say, allow me to accept the eventuality of being without everyone and everything that I believe makes up my reality. I would love to hear all of your thoughts, opinions and experiences surrounding this 'topic'. In the end, probably to give me peace of mind and feed my ego.

From loneliness to aloneness Aloneness is the Everest of meditation, the highest sunlit peak. Once you start enjoying aloneness, there is no end to where your joy stops growing. It goes on growing, it goes on spreading; it seems as if the whole universe is full of joy and full of fragrance. Aloneness is the greatest achievement in life, but certainly there is a painful period of transition. Man ordinarily lives in loneliness. To avoid loneliness, he creates all kinds of relationships, friendships, organizations, political parties, religions and what not. But the basic thing is that he is very much afraid of being lonely. Loneliness is a black hole, a darkness, a frightening negative state almost like death ... as if you are being swallowed by death itself. To avoid it, you run out and fall into anybody, just to hold somebody’s hand, to feel that you are not lonely... Nothing hurts more than loneliness. But the trouble is, any relationship that arises out of the fear of being lonely is not going to be a blissful experience, because the other is also joining you out of fear. You both call it love. You are both deceiving yourself and the other. It is simply fear, and fear can never be the source of love. Only those who love are absolutely fearless; only those who love are able to be alone, joyously, whose need for the other has disappeared, who are sufficient unto themselves. The common psychology of man is of loneliness. He does everything to avoid it. But whatever you do, it is always there just like your shadow. You may not look at it, but you know it is there. And once in a while you cannot resist the temptation either: you will look and you will find it always there. You cannot escape from your shadow. In the same way you cannot escape from your loneliness just by creating friendships, relationships, marriages, organizations – religious, political, social. They give you a little relief, but they don’t transform anything. The day you decide that all these efforts are failures, that your loneliness has remained untouched by all your efforts, that is a great moment of understanding. Then only one thing remains: to see whether loneliness is such a thing that you should be afraid of, or if it is just your nature. Then rather than running out and away, you close your eyes and go in. Suddenly the night is over, and a new dawn ... The loneliness transforms into aloneness. Aloneness is your nature. You were born alone, you will die alone. And you are living alone without understanding it, without being fully aware of it. You misunderstand aloneness as loneliness; it is simply a misunderstanding. You are sufficient unto yourself. The transition period is a little painful and difficult because of old habits but it won’t be long. And the way to make it short, bearable, is to enjoy your aloneness more and more. Make it a point that when you are enjoying your aloneness, you are not miserly. Then sing and dance, then paint. Do whatsoever you always wanted to do, but you were so much involved in relationships that there was no time left. Be creative, and the more creative you are, the more rejoicing, the more dancing, the more songful your aloneness becomes... You have to pour your whole energy into the joy of being alone. You have only a certain amount of energy – either you can dance or you can be sad. If you dance half-heartedly, then you are saving energy for sadness. That’s why I insist: live every moment totally and so intensely that no energy is left to be invested in sadness, in misery, in anger; there is simply no energy left. So the whole effort has to be very positive. Feed and nourish your aloneness with all that you have, pour your love, and you will be surprised that those gaps of sadness and grumpiness are not coming any more because you don’t have any energy for them and you are no longer in a welcoming mood for them. And if by chance you find some clouds of sadness coming, just watch. Don’t get identified with them. Remember only one thing: everything passes. So these clouds will also pass. Many times before they have been there and they have passed, so there is no question that this time they are not going to pass away. So why unnecessarily get disturbed? You just let them pass. You remain absolutely unidentified and watchful. If these two things are remembered, your aloneness gets your total energy so that no energy is left for anything else. But if in the beginning you don’t understand what is total, and you are holding something back, then some moments will come. For that, use a watchfulness, unidentified with the moment, as if it has nothing to do with you, as if it is somebody else’s sadness, somebody else’s grumpiness – none of my business. Keep a distance; don’t let them come closer and become one with you. That’s what I mean when I say, don’t identify. Don’t say, ”I am sad,” simply say, ”A cloud of sadness is passing in front of me.” Don’t say, ”I am angry,” simply say, ”A cloud of anger is just at the corner going by.” And it will not leave even a trace on you, it will not even touch you. And once you have become aware that by not identifying you become free of everything, you have a secret key in your hands for freedom from any kind of emotion, any mood, any thought. This will remind you that you have not been putting your total energy into your aloneness, something is left. So next time, when you are again feeling alone and the clouds have gone and the sky is clear, put in more energy. You never know how much you have. You will know only when you put it into action, when you make the potential actual – only then will you know. When the seed comes to blossom, only then will you know what was hiding in that seed. So many flowers – such a small seed – so much green foliage, such a beauty. But you know only when things become actual. Much of your life remains unlived; it never becomes actual. That’s why very few people are able to blossom. They live at the minimum – and I teach you to live at the optimum... Just enjoy everything. When you are alone, laugh. Tell a beautiful joke to yourself, sing. But remember that you have to nourish your aloneness so much that it becomes the most beautiful experience of your life; that no sadness can overtake you; that no past can ever possess you again; that no old habit can get you again into patterns that you know perfectly well are simply misery and suffering. Two things: one, a totality in aloneness. And if in the beginning sometimes you have not been total and a cloud comes, remain unidentified, far away. Slowly, slowly no sadness comes, no suffering comes, no feeling of loneliness comes. And that does not mean that you cannot relate with people. In fact, only a person who lives in a beautiful aloneness is capable of relating, because it is not his need. He is not a beggar, he is not asking you for anything – not even your company. He is a giver. Out of his abundance of joy and peace and silence and bliss he shares. Then love has a totally different aroma to it, then it is a sharing. And if both persons know the beauty of aloneness, then love reaches to its highest point, which has very rarely been possible. Then it touches the very stars of the sky. You cannot even dream of the beauty of it and the benediction of it – because both are overflowing with joy, both are overflowing with laughter, both are ready to give and nobody is asking for anything. Both are ready to give freedom, both are ready to give unconditionally. This love becomes one of the most beautiful meditations -- in which two persons melt and merge and become one. Aloneness does not mean you cannot relate. It simply means you will have to relate in a totally new way, which will not create suffering and misery, which will not create conflict, which will not be an effort – directly or indirectly – to dominate the other, to enslave the other. Because it is not out of fear, it is pure life. Out of fear is only death; out of fearlessness grows everything that is beautiful. ~ OSHO

Surrealist, I think we're the same person lol. I'm the same age, I have very similar "self talk" and attitudes about being the dark silent type. When I was going through school I faced rejection constantly by people I loved and trusted, this was repeated not only in my social life but in my family life as well. I faced verbal abuse, physical abuse, and I was isolated to a windowless basement and left to my own devices. I can't give you much advice seeing as how were kind of on an even playing field, but if you haven't looked into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) I would check it out. It can be very powerful combined with your meditation practice. It's about challenging those negative thoughts and recognizing automatic negative thought patterns like you described at the beginning of your post. The "dark classics" your brain plays can all be named and defined like catastrophizing, denying the positive, fortune telling, all or nothing thinking, etc. You can't fight the monkey mind or reason with it, but you can challenge the truth and validity of those thoughts. You know that "forever alone, not deserving happiness" is exaggerating and catastrophizing, because you can't possibly know it's the truth. I would become a conasuer of truth, and don't believe the dark thoughts, just accept them and then let it go, onto the next thought. It's just a brain, doing what brains do, and brains change every minute of the day. If it can change for the worse, which is the loop your in now, can't it change for the better? Negative thoughts are almost like a bully trying to beat you up, if you confront those thoughts and shine the light of truth you can essentially punch the bully right in the nose. I would imagine your life is objectively okay, it's really an internal struggle right? Use that to validate positivity. I might feel like shit but God damn it my life is objectively okay and I'm okay and I will be okay. And it's okay to feel like shit, sometimes were so focused on the bad, all you feel is shit, sitting back, breathe, let everything go, and for 1 second feel bliss, just try 1 second of relief, and start from there. "In this moment I let it all go, I breathe the air, I feel the sun, I love." My mantra.

I guess you have a different definition of "subtle experiences". You think of them more as "mindful experiences". And from that standpoint I agree with you. I was talking more about things like chasing spiritual highs like bliss which is actually not mindfulness.

@Leo Gura Ok fair enough words can only get us so far and i can't possibly know what you have experienced with my limited time with self development. I find the rabbit hole kind of risky and scary i'm not sure i'm willing to take it that far i have to be honest, having a passion,friends,family,healthy sex life,no money worries decent work and contributing to society seem to me the highest ideal to strife for. And when u are sitting in that cave in total bliss i hope you don't suddenly wake up in panic realizing that was not the thing u were looking for but unable to turn back to society and realizing its too late i have thought about that and that idea scares the hell out of me .

I've had an insight and I want to see what you guys think about it: There is no greater reason for doing something than the emotional reward you'll get from it (e.g. happiness, joy, bliss, strength, passion, etc.) or because you believe so strongly in what you are doing (when someone believes in trust, kindness, honor, beauty, etc.). Does it resonate with you guys? Please share your thoughts as this is a most interesting topic to ponder and discuss. Some other related questions: Is there another reason for doing something? Do you need a reason for doing something? Can you want something and take practical action-steps towards it without knowing that you want it (unconsciously)? What other models about the WHY of life do you find accurate and practical?

@xeeky4 Look further into that urge. It could be very revealing, if you're really honest. Why do you want it? Is it because it seems like the right path, the only path? Is it because you want to escape your life in this existence? Is it because somebody told you it's the ultimate state of bliss and you can use this to escape your family and depression? Even if this is a legit urge, you should do some deep, deep inner work before thinking about going down the spiritual route, I think going to therapy to sort out your emotional problems and family problems is a good first step. You need to get your garden looking tidy first - by that I mean your basic everyday level of happiness, productivity, self-esteem, etc. Depression is incredibly debilitating from my experience and a person experiencing it shouldn't even consider looking for enlightenment. It may be a message from your psyche that you need to change shit around in your life, it certainly was for me, looking back. Yield to that message and make basic positive changes which seem right to you - hobbies, relationships, diet etc. Over time, along with therapy, this will cleanse you. It's good that you're starting from scratch in this way - you can ditch a lot of the junk in your life without the old ties to it. Keep your meditation habit, this will help you to build up mindfulness over your depressive emotions and thoughts and could also act as a soother, a salve for you depending on the technique. I would ditch the contemplation for now, that's probably not going to help you. Most of all, remember that anyone's advice on here is just one person's opinion on your life, a complete stranger giving you advice based on very little information. Follow your inner drives first and foremost. There is a drive in you that will pull you out of all this, if you allow it.

Love is the driver that drives the world. Love makes the world go round. But love is not to be taken lightly. Because love is the only force that unites the world. When we're on our spiritual path, we realize that we have lower needs conditioned by society that we keep struggling to fulfill in a hamster on a wheel lifestyle. But as we grow, we begin to have higher needs based on unconditional love and compassion. Only that brings true peace and bliss !

Latihan cannot bring the great awakening. It became fashionable in the West and then disappeared completely, because it created many people who had to be put into mental asylums – for the simple reason that it has no stop built into the process. Once you start Latihan you are overtaken by the process of catharsis, and it goes on and on and you don’t know what to do. You are almost without any control. But Dynamic Meditation I have divided into different sections. Latihan has to be done alone; Dynamic Meditation has to be done under instruction. Then once you have learned it you can do it alone. Under instruction, after each ten minutes, the process can be changed. So you are always in control. It never becomes so big as to take all control into its own hands. These devices are needed just to clear the rubbish that Christianity has created, and to bring you to a state of naturalness, simplicity ... And from there the only way is witnessing, which is called, by Buddha, Vipassana. Vipassana means ‘looking at’. If you want to do Vipassana, or any silent meditation, Dynamic Meditation becomes absolutely essential, because Christianity having poisoned your mind, that poison has to be thrown out. You have to go completely crazy to throw it out; otherwise that craziness remains inside you, and won’t allow you to get into a silent, watching, witnessing meditation. So do some Dynamic Meditation, do some jogging, do some running, swimming and when you feel utterly tired, when you feel an intrinsic need to relax, you are free from Christianity. Then you can sit silently, then you can watch your mind – and it is not much. You have thrown out almost ninety-nine percent of it. Maybe here and there a few pieces are clinging because they are very old and have become glued to you ... Just watch them. Watching is a process of ungluing those small pieces hanging here and there in the mind. Once they also disappear, you don’t have a mind, you have a vast sky opening. That is the explosion, and that explosion will bring you to sachchidanand, to truth, to consciousness, to bliss. Sat Chit Anand ~ Osho

Here is the entire Satsang, so it is not taken out of context- "Buddhism and the Jhanas Ram (James Swartz) 2014-04-09 Source: http://www.shiningworld.com/site/satsang/read/231 Kumar: I trust you are well. James: Better than ever! Nice to hear from you, Kumar. Kumar: I believe that the jhanas are a powerful technique to sharpen your mind so that insight might appear, take root and become integrated with your real life. It is also historically used as a tool to burn the mind of conditioning and residual karma. The insight is through vipassana practice since the jhanas do not lead to liberation by themselves. I am working backwards since I already know who I am but it is an excellent set of techniques to deepen your understanding of how the mind works. James: Well, working backwards is always easier then working forwards because the seeking has stopped. As long as we are here action is required and the jhanas are as good a way as any to spend your time. Kumar: In Hindu tradition doing jhanas would be like doing tapas, very useful for stilling the mind, burning karma and allowing the self to reflect in a pure mind. Enlightened or not, the mind needs to be carefully monitored all the time. James: Yes, indeed. Kumar: In my personal experience, doing tapas or jhanas is essential for maintaining equanimity and a calm, tranquil mind. I also realized the connection between the pranayama exercises taught in raja yoga and connecting to the non-experiencing witness through breath practice. It was a very powerful feeling knowing that breath can help connect the mind to the nonexperiencing witness in a radically different way. Of course, the assumption is that you already know that you are the non-experiencing entity. James: Yes, you can connect with the breath. It happens in the method I teach too but the big issue, as you say, is whether or not you know you are the non-experiencing witness. Seems your self-knowledge is firming up nicely. Kumar: Actually, any meditation practice or scriptural study should suffice but one advantage of doing jhanas is the bliss the mind feels while meditating. It would be the Buddhist equivalent of bhakti yoga. Also, in these deep absorption states, the knowledge that “I am limitless awareness” will stick better and continue to grow. There is some confusion in Buddhism about awareness/self as presented by Vedanta and nonself. When I asked the teacher if jhana arises in the mind or awareness, they had no idea what I was talking about. Nobody ever asked them this question before. Also, I asked who is the recognizer of the jhana state, because to recognize that you are in jhana, there has to be an element of recognition, otherwise you will have no idea what state you are in. Recognition necessarily has to happen in the mind because it is an instrument of the self and the mind is insentient except as illuminated by the awareness. James: I am not surprised that they don’t know the self. That is our issue with Buddhism since time immemorial. I have yet to meet a Buddhist that understands it. There is a video on my website of a Buddhist – the only one I ever came across who seems to know what it is and that he is it – that seems to indicate that self-knowledge is alive somewhere in the Buddhist world, but it is very rare. They are doer-oriented, experience-oriented, particularly the jhana guys. Kumar: Anyway, I found it odd that this obvious fact was lost to them. Maybe the concept of noself is misinterpreted by Buddhists as a non-recognizing entity, I don’t know, but I wish they just said that it was awareness or the mind illuminated by awareness. I had a big discussion with my Zen teacher after the retreat but it seems in Buddhism they dance around the fact. James: They don’t know, Kumar. When Buddhism left its Vedic roots it splintered into a myriad of ideas, most of them – I hesitate to say all – devoid of self-knowledge. They talk about it, they dance around it, but they do not have a valid means of self-knowledge. Kumar: That said, I have no doubt it is a powerful practice, and stilling the mind allows one to see the conditioning of the mind as a whole. I can bet easy money that “choiceless awareness” that Krishnamurti talks about is using the practice of jhana to still the mind so that at some point in time the spark of awareness ignites. James: This is probably true but, again, it just generates experience, and without a way to evaluate it apart from the jiva’s (always uninformed) interpretation it usually develops into another frustration and attachment. What do the Buddhists say is the purpose of the jhanas? We know they are good for getting a sattvic mind but what do they think they are accomplishing? There are a lot of other ways of getting a sattvic mind. Kumar: Maybe if you sit long enough and you are an intelligent person, the insight that you are awareness might arise, but Vedanta is easier. James: That’s right. We give them that. Meditation is called a leading error. It is a mistake but it can put you in the right arena and inquiry may develop and, like Ramana, you might just get that you are awareness. Kumar: Historically Buddha had to differentiate himself from the Vedic culture so it is entirely possible that he articulated the same concepts slightly differently. When I was reading Buddhism I came across their renditions of Sanskrit words, and some of them were right, some were close and some were completely off the mark. The problem with Buddhism is that it can be whatever you want it to be. There are more Buddhisms than stars in the sky. Vedanta is Vedanta. It does not change because the object of knowledge… awareness… does not change. If you haven’t been taught, you will not get it. Kumar: I am pretty sure when Buddha said anatman he meant that there was no permanent experiencing entity, which is correct. James: That is true but concepts are just concepts. Their implied meaning can point to the self and deliver self-knowledge but unless the concepts are used in the proper way – we have a definite method for using concepts – they won’t remove ignorance, they will just supply definitions, more concepts – for objects in the apparent reality and for the self. Their problem is that they don’t know what enlightenment is. You have to know that the problem is ignorance and that getting a concept of who you are is still ignorance. What happened is that, as you say, the Buddha felt he had to differentiate himself from the Vedic culture which means he didn’t understand what it actually was at its heart. He was only looking at it from the religious/cultural level. The Brahmins were corrupt so he assumed that Vedanta was corrupt and he decided he would reform it or provide and alternative. He would never have done this had he been properly taught. And if he was enlightened it was not due to teaching. It was like Ramana’s, experiential, from which he probably extracted the knowledge. But we really don’t know. Nobody knows. Buddhism was cooked up many years after the Buddha and he didn’t write, or if he did it was lost to time. What we have are a few snippets of his words. And who knows exactly what he meant by them, or what those who remembered them did to them as they were handed down? I think you are right about his meaning of the word anatman. But this is not a teaching. It is one small idea that needs to be contexualized within a much broader framework if it is going to make sense. Kumar: I hope your retreat went well. I am enjoying sitting still in silence and watching my breath unfold. The journey continues. James: Good for you. I have been there and done that, as they say. Yes, the retreat was excellent. Take care of yourself, Kumar. ~ Much love, James"

it is supposed to be never-ending and that is the fun of it, you're starting to get in touch with the essence of enlightening there will always be a NEXT step , something new to learn, and you want that, because that means you will always be able to expand and enjoy new things. the ultimate lesson, is that it's not about achieving something, it's simple but it's not about the destination it's about the journey. you will never be ''done'', there never going to be something that you will do that will allow you to go ''ah ,I'm finally there'' never. whether it's a new job, a new house, a lover, a friend, kids, never, never... drop all conditions, and realize that life is now, be happy just because you're improving, because you're tackling on new challenges, if being challenged makes you happy then you will always be happy. which requires a switch of perspective, a challenge is not a way to achieve something anymore, a challenge is a source of excitement and fun because it does exactly that, challenge you, take fun in the feeling of wanting to create something, not into that which you create. I'm literally talking about a feeling, that feeling you feel when you long or desire for something, be grateful for it, feel the energy of it, the vitality, and be appreciative of it, feel how it moves you to new places, and that without it you wouldn't be able to even move. people who are depressed lack desire and motivation and they are literally stuck in their homes unable to move, and I know this from experience, this is real. if not for our desires we wouldn't be able to even move, yet the first thing we do when we feel desire is to not appreciate the feeling, we compare our desire to what we have, and we punish it with pain! "oh I'm feeling desire for something, something that I don't have! desire is making me realize what I don't have!pain pain pain, I must get what I don't have as soon as possible'' desire didn't come and make you feel like you're missing something, the very presence of desiring is already something given to you that you didn't have before, it is a gift of real energy the second you desire something you've already added something to your life desire and longing is real energy, if you can get to a place where you're thankful that these feelings are moving you, giving you energy to go after what you want, you will be in bliss, and the results never matter, what you achieve, never matters, its simply a signpost ''go there'' ''go here'' it doesn't matter where you go, life in its infinite intelligence can make anything joyful. just see goals as signposts : ''oh now I'm going towards there, oh now I'm going there'', see how desires moves you,it's not about getting somewhere, everywhere is fine, everywhere is perfect , it's about the moving

@S33K3R Interesting idea! Maybe I'll try to compile some of what I've gone through in my experiences though it wouldn't be as good as basing it from many people's experiences. Though, these stages remind me of Riso and Russ Hudson's mental health stages for different types of people, where people have 3 main manifestations in how they deal with fear, shame and anger. In their book Personaliy Types. Really changed how I think about growth for myself. Here's some of my own experiences and how I dealt with each stage based on the 10 stages of meditation above. Note that my experiences can be different from others. You guys might wanna see this. @Nahm @Shan @Max_V@AleksM@Dodo@jon hinkle Stage one : I often questioned how useful meditation was. Really? Sitting doing nothing? How could that help? I was a pretty easily distracted person and at this time, meditation was painfully boring. How to solve it : Start small. Because if you start with something too long — you'll probably be demotivated soon. Think 5-10 minutes. Then 15. Then 20. Or more if you like, steadily increasing it when you're ready for the next.. It's best to do this at the same time and place each day as habits formed in the brain tend to be more easily imprinted this way. You can read the benefits of meditation and visualize how it would affect each area of your life in detail. Or even learn about a meditation master's life to be inspired — feelings are more easily made if you can imagine a concrete example of what the benefits are rather than abstract descriptions. See the blog James Clear for more motivation, habits and procrastination tips. Best blog I found for the area of discipline. Stage two : I remember meditating in a car getting distracted by all kinds of thoughts. I could daydream endlessly throughout the meditation and I could even spent the entire session distracted I was so pissed — how can I do this? How to solve it : People are better off using a guided meditation as without one, they're likely to get too distracted. Try to be gentle when you notice your thoughts drifting off — like placing a feather on your thoughts and placing your attention back to the breath. Its best to left the thoughts drift away like watching clouds than forcing it. Forcing it just makes more thoughts about how annoyed you are. Don't overcomplicate going back to the breath — that just creates more thoughts. Just do it. Stage 3 : I often had trouble getting sleepy with meditation here. I always did it in the morning and add to that my lack of sleep the day before — I was tired. I'd tell myself to open my eyes during the meditation but I was often tempted to drift off to sleep. Later I'd tell myself to meditate in the afternoon instead but I was impatient enough to not do it often. How to solve it: Sit up straight while allowing your shoulders to relax. Sit with "dignity". If you're still falling asleep, you can have the option of opening your eyes or having meditation on a time of the day when you're less tired. Ground yourself in the surface under your butt and your feet. Stage 4 : I remember being focused on my breath but like a daze. That I had to make lots of effort to keep it that way and it felt like I could get distracted any moment. It felt like trying to hold an umbrella still in a really windy day. How to solve it : Focus on the sensation of dullness. See how it changes with each moment. How it rises and falls. How it moves around. And focus on the breath with more specifics — how fast it moves with each changing moment. Its intensity. Where it is in your body — it can be from your nose, your chest or your belly. And even subdividing your focus in even smaller areas of that area. It's also helpful to remember your motivation before or as you mediate to avoid distraction. Not only motivations for yourself but how your meditation practice can change you in a way that benefits others. Greater awareness brings better control. Greater motivation allows more sharpness in focus. I also found it helpful to deal with strong emotions here in a certain way. Often by asking what the texture, the color, the shape, the movement or any other sensory description to your emotions. No need to overthink it. Just say the first thing in your head. This counterintuitive technique allows a deepening of awareness in emotions. Stage 5 : This is where I felt a greater peacefulness as I meditate. This is likely the time where I really enjoyed getting back to meditation. In my practice as I looked closer, I noticed the breath. But I didn't really focus with sharpness. Think of it like the difference good enough definition of a movie and a high definition of a movie. How to solve it : I was lacking knowledge so I googled it. I find this article especially helpful. http://dharmatreasure.org/on-mindful-awareness-vs-dullness/. What I remember the most is practicing meditating in louder environments. Stage 6 : A greater sense of peacefulness enters my daily life. It feels like I'm meditating even as the day passes. A regular bliss begins to form and it's more happiness than I ever thought possible. I focus with ease but still can get a bit distracted by things. Birds chirping. People talking outside. Sounds of airplanes passing through the sky. I was the type of person who was sensitive to noise and crowds — but as my focus deepened, I found I'd stopped even noticing the existence of busy environments around me. How to solve it : Now that I think about it, this stage was triggered by my attempts to focus longer in my everyday life. I've been steadily focusing on more in depth content but at a time, I thought I'd really try this. I read books more. I stopped watching 10 minute videos or similar and watched a tv series or documentaries longer than an hour instead. I stopped going to short content sites like Reddit and found longer articles in Quora. Finding videos in playlists more and trying to learn from more in depth online content like courses from universities like the sites Edx, khanacademy or Coursera. I even moved my meditation time from 40 minutes to an hour because I liked it so much. Everything I did — I made sure I didn't just glaze over it — but concentrate deeply in my understanding of it. This was also strongly triggered when I tried Self-inquiry for some time. Especially with Peter Ralston's book, The Book Of Not Knowing. As well as deepening my thinking about thinking. I make sure I'm aware of what exactly I'm focusing on — rather than just focusing without awareness. As I said earlier, it's the difference between focusing on the road and wheel in front of you and also knowing what and why you're heading somewhere. Stage 7 : I feel an even deeper peacefulness in this stage but it still hasn't pearmeated throughout my whole life. In daily life, there's often stresses yet the thing people know less about is the subtle stresses. Small amounts of impatience, slight sadness or more. And in this stage, I find a deeper awareness of every feeling that passes through me — down to the tiniest details. And those feelings are often different types of bliss. I find that I learn more quickly things I never dreamed of understanding. Time goes so fast 10 minutes can feel like 20 years has passed. But the problem is that my mind feels like it has to force this experience out. Like having to carry heavy bags as you walk up a mountain with a majestic natural view. You're still someone pretty strong — but after some time, it gets burdening. Then I'd drop to lower stages. It feels wonderful, but it's also straining. How to solve it : Continue practicing concentration. It's a good idea to focus on continuous focus and trying to lengthen it over time. When it's time to lessen the effort of focus, think of it like this. Remember someone you admire. Notice that you're not forcing the thought to come out. You're simply recalling it and it even has a certain ease to it. You can practice moving with this ease of focus in a meditation as you move your awareness from the top of your body to the bottom as many times as you like. Allowing all that focus with the softness of placing a feather on your focus object. It's also helpful to practice being aware of how much force or ease you're supposed to do to concentrate on the moment. Stage 8 : The few times I've been here I felt a peace. Time didn't just go faster, the concept of time disappears entirely. Bliss seems unnoticeable, because it has become a natural part of functioning. During these times, self control becomes outstanding. I don't have the same urges to procrastinate or eat junk food. Deep focus and discipline feels as light as carrying around a coin. But during this, I can feel some bizzare sensations. Like a hyperawareness of itchy feelings and even an erupting joy cascading through my body. Recently today I focused so well it seemed that the visible environment was subtly warping around me — as if the furniture around me was breathing. With all these extraordinary sensations, I couldn't help but focus on them and get momentarily distracted. How to solve this : I don't know for sure as I haven't passed this stage. But if I had to make an educated guess, the answer might lie in determination sitting. It's a meditation where you don't move so makes the meditator have to learn how to deal with this uncomfortable body sensations. Any critique of this? Or any additional information to place? Maybe I'll have to edit this later on. Edit : Upon reflection, I learned that I had a few experiences of stage 8 to add. I remember a technique from the Headspace app that taught me about effortless focus.

@Shanmugam All thoughts have stopped but it's not like I can't think anymore, I just have to force myself to hear mental sounds(thoughts). I can think whenever I want to think otherwise I abide in this awarness of no-mind all of the time. Sometimes thoughts appear without me consciously wanting them, but when they do I can stop them by not asigning them any meaning, not paying attention to them and then they disapear into nothingness pretty quickly. BTW. I am sure that I'm enlightened. Emotions stills arise when I am in this awarness without thoughts, sometimes they are very painful but overall I don't suffer from them because I don't identify with them and by being in this awarness they lose all the power(the power for suffering). Negative emotions are just a constructed meaning an interpretation, positive and negative are constructed meanings from the mind and I can let go of that meaning now, emotions just are, existentialy they don't have an asigned meaning to them. I can be happy NOW, I don't have to wait to be happy, I don't need a thing to be happy. I don't need people, situations, things, achievements, thoughts, emotional stimulations, interpretations, good and bad, a position, meaning, control, approval, past or future, comparing, gossip, seriousness, a purpose, communication, inspiration or insight to be happy. I can be happy even if my body feels like shit. I am detached from all of that. Emotional hights are not times when I am happiest. I am happiest when I have piece of mind. This is pure bliss to me. Don't ask yourself if the cup is half full or half empty, just realize there is no cup. The mind state is a fantasy. You maintain it with illusions. Illusion of meaning (existentially there is no meaning), identification (existentialy you can't identify yourself as a thing), control (there is no free wil), with comparing yourself with others (that makes sense only to egos), with attachment, judgement, gossip, seriousness, proudness, with a sense of you (the big You - consciousness can not be perceived with senses).

About three months ago I had an LSD experience that has left me a bit traumatized. I've tripped on LSD dozens of times on higher doses before, but this particular trip was the strangest. I took 4 doses and smoked a few blunts throughout the trip. After about 20 minutes of taking the acid, I could feel a wave of unease coming. It was abnormally strong. So strong that I couldn't stand anymore and so I laid down and listened to some music. That calmed and relieved me down a bit, but the wave was still coming in strong. During the peak of the trip, my reality was fluctuating between pleasure and pain. I was having visions and imagining a life of extraordinary pleasure and then a life of excruciating pain. I began to think that all of my friends old entities, old gods that were waiting for me to wake up. The most unsettling part of this entire experience was the feeling that I was inside of a simulation. I kept thinking about life lines. I would have glimpses of really dark realities where I would be raped and tortured for thousands of years inside of a dungeon and then a few moments later I would have an unexpected sense of bliss where I would see rainbows and a future where I'd be creating music and spreading love. Also, I would very clearly become aware of alternate realities, where the characters of my life would do very unexpected actions that they wouldn't do in my reality. The characters of my life all seem to blend into one energy. The idea of old souls come to mind. Everybody that was around me during the trip, felt like a very old entity who had taken form as my friends. My friends all felt really old, beyond their physical form. And i was realizing just how much physical forms we had all lived through. We had all gone through many many forms of life to end up where we were. The entire trip was extremely unsettling. And I haven't been able to get it off my mind. Sometimes I find myself questioning what's real in my every day life. It's not a pleasant feeling. I feel like i might be delusional. I keep remembering the vivid emotions that encompassed that trip and i find it really strange. I have a deep feeling that there's something really weird going on but can't put my finger on it let alone explain it. I'm just been very in awe after this trip and would appreciate some guidance and experiences. I wanna know if i'm deluding myself or if i really did tap into something strange.

I've been since kid a hard-case introverted, shy with social phobia. I improved a lot and learned to socialize, but never erase my social phobia at all. I forced myself into social events to fight against my fears, but when I got into self development and Leo's enlightenment episodes my ego find the perfect excuse to avoid uncomfortable situations and my lifestyle became like a enlightenment junkie monk. I work in a job at night without people contact to detach from my ego. I can find bliss being alone, If I want I can find joy in meditation. But I know this is a trap. For some reason we are in this life to overcome our fears, and if we avoid them, they will come back again and again in different situations. This escapism of masturbatory enlightenment has been my rationalisation to stay in the comfort zone. If I'm happy in the now why to approach girls and be rejected? why be married and risk to divorce? why run a business and get broke? I owe it to myself, to stop avoiding the fears of life.

@Leo Gura said that a true hero is one who sacrifices himself and in the end does away with the illusion. So it brings me some comfort that in the end he cared for so many people and that took a toll on him. He sacrificed himself for so many people so he is a true hero. When I didn't have a car and my mom and dad were bickering about it he took initiative and thought to himself that it wasn't fair for me to take all those driving lessons, have my license, and live in a place that needed a car which I didn't have. He came with me and my mother to the dealership negotiated for the car and gave the down payment. That is a man of dignity and compassion. I just wished he took more care of his health so we could keep him longer but, then again you never know. Like you said @jimrich he's in a better place now with no more pain and suffering. May he be in bliss and peace.

Day 7: So my Uncle just died 2 days ago and it seems extremely surreal. Somehow we're all under this illusion that we can take life for granted because death will never happen to us. Modern society seems like it never takes time to embrace the void... until it just comes up and takes them. Very family oriented cultures such as the one I grew up in are always looking to get together, talk, and do some kind of activity. If you're not up for that they'll sometimes want to force you into it because they're automatically under the impression that you are suffering if you aren't part of that. The education system culture is the same but, instead of leisurely activities they want you to always be keeping yourself busy. I had one teacher who told us students that she just didn't want us to "sit there and vegetate". PARTICIPATION PARTICIPATION PARTICIPATION!!! It's so important right. Well I don't remember signing up for that and I don't remember signing up for existence either it was all forced on all of us and it's also our decision if we want to force it unto others. So I engaged in a little experiment in trying to get comfortable with the "void" quite literally. Just went to bed and put my head on a pillow. I myself am an extremely light sleeper so that's why I even meditate while lying on the bed. While I was sleeping in that comfortable position I felt this state of bliss. One problem though my own mind wasn't letting me sleep that's the problem my mind most of the time doesn't let me sleep their is this constant dialogue that never shuts off. Then at that moment I was thinking that death if it finally takes away this torturous constant dialogue it's a form of peace and liberation. So as bad as I felt for my uncle at that time he was in the hospital and he was sedated I thought to myself hey I was lying my head on this pillow but, my thoughts wouldn't let me feel peace they just kept going and going and going and going. So then I thought about him in the hospital and I said he doesn't. That gave me some sense of peace. Other than that 2 weeks ago I felt great with all my printing projects and I was having so much fun. Then his situation kept getting worse and worse and I felt so bad for him. Then when he finally passed I said to myself well we all gotta confront this. No one in this world is immortal and I think his passing also acts as a wake up call. To wake up and make the most of what this thing we have called life is before it leaves us. I miss him but, I take solace in the fact he isn't suffering anymore and nothing can bother him.

Truth has to be total, truth has to be whole. And the whole truth is: bliss PLUS meditation. It is difficult of course, arduous, to manage both. Why? — because they seem to be polar opposites. Meditation means silence and bliss means dance. Meditation means stillness and bliss means a song. Meditation means escaping from the world and bliss means sharing with the world. Meditation you can do in a Himalayan cave, but to be blissful you will have to come back to the world. Bliss needs to be shared; it exists only in sharing. It can’t exist when you are alone, it disappears. It is a communion. Meditation can exist in aloneness and bliss can exist in togetherness. But when both exist then you have to learn a totally new way of life. Many people have tried to meditate without bliss because it is simple, less complex. You have to take only one work upon yourself: that you have to still your mind. And you can force your mind to be stilled, but you will become sad, you will have a long face. They have avoided the complexity of spiritual transformation. They have chosen meditation, they have forced their mind to be still. It is a negative state; their minds are only empty, not silent — forcibly made still. But it is not a natural growth of silence, it is not the flowering of silence. Their silence is like the cemetery, it is not the silence of a garden.

@Shan Wow, Shan. Thanks! love meditation and I love descriptions about stages in something that has to do with personal development. (Okay, maybe stages in general. Haha.). And now these two are combined. . My concentration on reading this article was stable. And I feel a stable bliss — with a certain texture to it. It's like how emotional ache feels similar to an actual physical ache. Bliss feels like silk — amazingly smooth, light and spacious. Often being cold is associated with being cruel but strangely, bliss feels cold. It's like a refreshing cold breeze in my head. I think I'm in level 6 right now. As I look closely with subtle distractions I could hear the faint sound of a family member watching TV in a nearby room. And some birds chirping outside. And that's right now — where there are some parts of the day where I'm not as focused. I can't seem to concretely remember a moment of what subtle dullness in stage 5 is — but it might be like how I practiced focusing on a book not just lightly but really trying to focus and understand in depth. Even drop to level 4 at times — hello, embarrassing memories. The funny thing about level 6 is that I can focus on things too deeply. When I switch to another object to focus on — it takes my mind a bit of time because it feels like I'm moving away from paradise that I've gotten from sustained attention. Might be why I type long posts — I concentrate deeply and I'm not that good at turning it off at times. I almost got late to class because I gotten so absorbed in a book or even tell people to wait a bit as my mind loads to talk to them. Eheh. I'm not sure I get this stage but metacognitve is another word for thinking about thinking. And I'm taking a guess that it means that I should be more aware at what my mind is focusing on rather than focusing without awareness. Difference between focusing deeply the wheel and the road in front of you and also knowing that you're driving to somewhere for the right reasons. Also stage 7 says they gained the ability to focus to focus as broadly or deeply as they want. Which I don't right now. Guess thanks to this I know what to try to do. Haha. Shan, I haven't reached stage 8 but I did seem to surpass stage 4. 5 years meditation since age 11. Sometimes 40 minutes a day. Sometimes 20 minutes. Sometimes an hour. Occasionally more than 2 hours. As well as mindfulness in daily life. Like in eating. During lectures. Reading. Taking a bath. Internet browsing even etc.

@Joseph Maynor Buddha said that there is no God (Brahman) . If there is God, you cannot be totally empty. You may not be there but the God will be there, the Divine will be there. And your mind can deceive you, because your Divine may be just your mind playing tricks. Buddha said that there is no soul, because if there is any soul, ATMA, you can hide your ego behind it. Your ego will be difficult to leave if you feel that there is some self within you. Then you cannot be totally empty because you will be there. Just to prepare the ground for these techniques of emptiness, Buddha denied everything. He was not an atheist but he appeared to be an atheist because he said that there is no God, he said there is no soul, he said there is nothing substantial in existence – existence is empty. But this was just to prepare the ground for these techniques. Once you enter emptiness you have entered all – you may call it the Divine, you may call it God, or ATMA, soul, whatsoever you like – but you can enter the truth only when you are totally empty. Nothing should be left of you. Hindus thought that Buddha was destroying religion, that he was teaching irreligion. And people who heard him, even they couldn’t follow, because whenever you go somewhere, you go to seek something – you never go to seek emptiness. So those who went to hear him were seeking something – nirvana, moksha, the other world, heaven, truth – but they were seeking something. They had come to gratify their ultimate desire: to find the truth. That is the last desire. And unless you are completely desireless, you cannot know the truth; the very condition of knowing is to be totally desireless. So one thing is certain, you cannot desire truth. If you desire it, the very desire will become the barrier. There were masters before Buddha who were teaching, ”Don’t desire, be desireless.” But they were talking about God, about the kingdom of God, heaven, paradise, moksha, the ultimate freedom and liberation – and they were saying, ”Be desireless.” Buddha felt that you cannot be desireless if there is something to be attained. You may pretend that you are desireless, but this pretension, desirelessness, is also from some desire to be fulfilled. It is false. The masters say that you cannot attain to ultimate bliss with desire, and you want to attain ultimate bliss – so you start being desireless, you try to be desireless, so that you can attain the ultimate bliss. But the desire is there.You are trying to be desireless just because of the desire. So Buddha said that there is no God to be attained. Even if you desire, there is no one to be attained... so be desireless. There is no moksha somewhere, there is no goal. Life is meaningless and goal-less. His emphasis is beautiful and wonderful – no one has tried that way. He destroyed all the goals just to help you to be desireless. If the goals are there, how can you be desireless? And if you are not desireless, you will not attain to the goal – this is the paradox. He destroyed all the goals – not that those goals are not there, they are there and they can be attained – but if you want to attain them, if you desire to attain them, it becomes impossible. The very basic condition is you must be desireless– then the ultimate happens to you. So Buddha says there is nothing to be desired, desires are futile. Drop all desires and when there is no desire you will be empty. Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, Vol 2 ~ Osho Before Buddha , Jainas denied God, but they do not denied soul. There were schools of Hinduism which denied spirituality, they were materialists, atheist , a Hindu can be a atheist too, a Hindu can be monotheist, polytheist too.

Ilusion of Success So I just watched Leo's video on how paradoxically pursuing success makes you even more miserable and how it radically departs from happiness in the moment. I've spent 2014 to 2017 reclaiming childlike happiness and re-connecting with the passion, simple pleasures, and going back to my original purpose so I can re-discover myself. I tasted that deep bliss twice in San Francisco while sitting on a pier and in the park and feeling this deep joy surge through me. It was because "the moment was golden." I feel like that's been my new mantra "the moment is golden!" However, I also want to focus more on pursuing authentic success that's aligned with the authentic self's desires. I proposed the idea of Purpose Driven Hedonism which is focused on how pursuing pleasure aligned with authentic desires maximizes happiness. I returned to the state of childhood happiness.