Search the Community

@pluto amen. @Mighty Mouse Shhh here he comes - omg dude that was so funny ? @Joseph Maynor There are stages and it could also happen all at once. The stages, anyone could do and get ‘there’. Anyone. The all at once, 1 in a billion odds I think. My 2 cents....There’s realization of the duality of one’s own mind, conceptual nonduality, mental equanimity, the oneness experience, the absolute experience, then the ultimate blow out that actual reality is literally you and there is no other thing (the Alone ❤️), they’re is no thing at all, you are not a thing and not not a thing either, everything sensed is completely your illusion, what you are in actuality is eternal. That last one, doesn’t matter if it’s on a trip or not, it is so permanent it could not be undone even if you tried. *It’s not that you experience that you are everything - you are still you - and you experience that everything is you. Sounds subtle, but it’s all the difference. There is no unseeing what you are and what is illusion. When someone says it’s not an illusion - lol - God, you, it telling you, that they are real and not illusionary. Consider how funny that is, when you know you are them the whole time. They just don’t know what they are. Nothing wrong with that (obviously lmao!), it’s just very funny in a mind f way. Wether this eternal you is love itself, or a void of nothingness without conscious awareness of it’s self...clearly we can agree no one believes anyone, nor should they, so it’s limited of course to experience of what you are. It is worth considering though, that if you consider yourself conscious as a result of the body & brain, but you don’t think God is conscious, you are actually saying you are conscious and God is not. Also, very funny. Side note, lots of people claiming it’s a void, who have not experienced the mental equanimity, let alone the rest. It is not helpful to anyone on the forum when someone speaks with false confidence from fear and ignorance. Every time someone does this, they are hurting themselves the most, that is the nature of self depreciation, you’re further from any realizations, as the path is through the self. One’s own healing should then be the priority, not a forum comment. Stating enlightenment is not real reveals you have not experienced it, or any of the most profound experiences, and solidifys that you won’t. Short of a human never having formed an ego or any concept of self as human, Enlightenment is a real experience.

@Dodo You are 100% right! The self is an illusion, all polarities and separations are illusions. Truth and false, right or wrong, self or others. Is all an infinite thing/nothingness/everything. Time is also an illusion, time is everything and everything is time. Without this illusion of time, I am you and you are me. Like in the poem, I find it funny/sad how hard/easy that people are trying to fool themselves. You are the illusion itself, and the illusion is god/everything.

I had a surgery with total anesthesia (for 4 hours). I can only remember the first moment I started waking up - I heard voice of the doctor and became very surprised, then thoughts happened: "What is this [about sound]? Why is this needed? Everything was so perfect". I cannot remember how it feels to be during anesthesia, but I remember this brief moment less than a second before I even heard the doctor's voice. It felt like very very satisfying blackness (even though I realized there was blackness only after I started waking up). Basically, like deep sleep. Very satisfying and very complete. Not boring. It feels like a pause. Also, the voice of doctor appeared "above" this satisfying pause. And then thoughts, feelings, vision, memories of my life appeared "above" it. Itself did not go anywhere. There is it, and above it all kind of experiences. Everything appears in this satisfying "being/sleeping", I guess (if I'm not fantasizing). I find this experience useful for self inquiry. Sometimes I try to remember that moment before the voice of doctor appeared above nothingness and try to find this nothingness in present moment. Everything is appearing "above" it, how can itself disappear? I guess, this is what was there before you were born? This "containing". I'm afraid I could be fantasizing, though, so in self inquiry I do not always rely on that memory.

Huh? That doesn't make sense to me. For me, in deep sleep, there is nothingness present. Zero.

The mind deceives into believing it’s idea of nothingness is the same as experiencing nothingness. Usually from a great meditation practice, a really convincing friend, one’s upbringing, or what someone said in a book. The difference is, the experience is, of God. Afterwards, when you see the word nothing, it’s the same as seeing the word God. The idea, is just an idea, protected by an ego that is so clever, it’s invisible.

A few years ago, I got my wisdom teeth removed. The surgeon gave me an anesthetic. While I was unconscious, there was no body, no mind, no world, no time, no space, just absolute nothingness. I wasn't aware of anything but I didn't die. All of our experience right now is a fantasy. The same thing can be experienced if one succeeds in meditation. From that experience, I concluded that the body, mind, and consciousness work together in an INFINITELY complex manner. It's so complex that we can't understand it through our mind. I'm not going to try to figure it out because that would lead to mental masturbation. People who say we are the body are partially correct. People who say we're not the body are also partially correct. For people who tried 5-meo did you experience something similar to this? Everyone is welcome to comment.

@Monkey-man Enlightened ppl don't ask why because there is nothing to ask about. Everything is the absolute and the absolute doesn't exist. I know that's a total paradox. But that's the truth of it. There is no one to wonder why. There is no duality. There is no non-duality. There is no enlightenment. There is no God. There is no creation. There is no one being born. There is no world. There are no appearances. There is no nothingness. There is no void. Everything is the absolute and the absolute doesn't exist. Drop the logic that asks why and it all makes perfect sense. Nothing is.

Do enlightened ppl still think about why god created the world? (or about why there is world of appearances of nothingness)

@JustinS Re-AliSE That Seeking Is For IlluSion. And For-Getting It Is Interchanging The Vibrations With Truer Ones. True-er Vibrations Never Dis-ease This Being. False carries much Loaded Exaggerations In the Undercurrent Of THOUGHTS. So. HAVE SUPREME SUPERVISION. What does this MEAN you ask? Well, See without seeing, hear without hearing, be without being. Don't feel but feel, Don't think and don't know but Know your thoughts and Let them think. Find The one which brought It to Existence. Find The Whole beyond the Mote. Find Nothingness beyond Your Concept of Yourself. Attain YOU within YOU. And Know It without Knowing without awareness. See Fully = Seeing Seeing And you See What is Seeing? And You Are What??? Attain Yourself And go To Boundaries Beyond Boundaries. Then You Be-Come un-Becoming. WCRTY. TODIFJELSKD.

I think I get it. and it is probably the last layer to take off before absolute nothingness. but that's at a very advanced state. before you get there, you have to replace career, relationship, money, partying and that stuff with spirituality, seeking, meditating, self inquiry, journaling and such things. I don't think I'm at that point yet. and I think that's why Leo keeps saying that this stuff is such hard work. because many people jump off and 'stop seeking' too soon, when they're still stuck in a 'low consciousness' life

This little phrase jumps out at me because it implies something in light of everything else you said. Yes I want to be caring... I am care full, I do care, though I don't get the impression this is the sentiment you were saying it in. It felt like more of a warning, like I should beware of something and yes, I want to be aware, again if that's what you meant ..... although, again it doesn't appear you did mean that sentiment. There is no doom or devastation if our awareness of the absolute is merely conceptual or limited or veiled in perception, it just is. For my own experience living a fulfilled life, at peace and in joy is the point even if it is an illusion, I just want to enjoy my delusion! I don't need "truth" or "infinite absolute nothingness" or "enlightenment" or whatever attainment of some ultimate abstract to be fulfilled. Just being present, appreciating the moment, embracing life in it's simplest expression has way more effect of dissolving the suffering in my inner life and increasing the enjoyment of my whole experience. Whether it's limited and conceptual only matters is if those concepts and limitations are bringing me misery, if not, so what? I don't set up the conceptual belief that those conditions of limitation prevent my joy. Kitty aint go no time fo dat! Meow!

The very fact that you are alive and have a desire to survive, Leo made a topic about this. A banana has a different meaning to us than to a dolphin. The same as if a city was to be hit by a meteorite, depending on which city you live in your would derive a different meaning from the impact, even though the meteorites have not changed, they have just are hitting a different place and not wiping you out. You cannot escape meaning as a person. So if you look through he perspective of a person, or subjectively hierarchy of values exist, wether you like it or not. That is how we communicating right now. These very same things through the objective lens hierarchical values don't exist. They are both one in the same, or is it one and the same? I'm not sure, but they are the same thing. I don't see what you mean when you say humans assign meanings to things though, if we exist and existence is emptiness and you say value comes from existence then??It's kinda still leading to the same thing that we derive meaning from that which has no meaning, which is...a meaning! And if you look at it from the objective viewpoint, where all values are equal (closest thing i can describe to nothingness and it's not wrong is it? I mean the values don't exist but the data in which we interpret things do), no hierachies of value ie no meaning, you derive a meaning of meaninglessness from that which has no meaning. It still very much seems like a paradox to me. But fair, i do see what you mean about fairness and objectivity and a leap that i may be taking (i'm still not sure). It's all a lot to take in and i'm just trying to make sense of it. Appreciate you testing it out.

Hi pardon me for my rudeness , i haven't read all the replies ... Just wanted to address the first message by playdoh : Being Enlightened is like being 4 years old and realizing that everything is a playground I can tell you from my personal experience that i too struggled to understand how is it beneficial for me to be empty... Because the glimpses of the true thing i was having were deceiving me: I was walking for hours listening to trance music and having an experience of "no self"... i felt like i am reality itself in this moments. But now , from my direct experience i can tell you this much: Enlightenment is anything but empty. It is complete fullness of experience and it feels like whatever you are doing right now, is the meaning of life... I enjoy having sex as much as i enjoy pouring myself a cup of fresh coffee My process was gradual and that is why i cant relate to this feeling of dread you had but my guess is that if it happens "to fast" it might be a bit shocking . I think you don't have to push it if you don't feel like it... i was on for a month, then off for two and this cycle repeated itself. Nobody "needs" to become enlightened - the way i see it anyways - when you have had enough you have had enough... I strongly believe that every being that wants to . can and will become enlightened and the master can only shorten your struggle. I want to add a paragraph from a great zen book i am reading: Eastern wisdom - the treasure box , by Nissim Amon: "Pay attention and don't think about emptiness when contemplating the mind. Those of you who sit in meditation and fall into absolute emptiness will sink into black nothingness and space. just us outer space is full of real things the sun, the moon, the stars , planet earth, rivers and mountains , so to the mind contains real things. The mind and the world ; all is one and one is all " I agree that the ego is crucial for our survival at first... Because if kids were fully enlightened what is to stop them from putting their hand in the fire and realizing that this feeling is empty? you see the point? It dose protect us - at first but than it becomes a heavy burden. The way i see it: It is necessary to go full circle . Alan watts ones spoke to a buddhist and he tolled him: "When i knew nothing about buddhism , mountains were mountains and waters were waters. When i understood a little buddhism , mountains were no longer mountains and waters were no longer waters. But when i fully understood , mountains were again mountains and waters were waters." It depicts - as i see it - the process that takes place when someone is on the path but not quite there: It can be world shattering and very difficult to take in... but i assure you when (and not if ) you will get there mountains will be themselves and you will not feel "insecure" or vulnerable because thous are fleeting feelings that do not last. The closes i can describe an awake state to someone who is not fully there : The gap between your thoughts. And from what i recall thous were the most peaceful moments i had Good luck, good day and keep it real Daniel. p.s Sorry for my lengthy writing i was so exited to find this community So i wanted to answer my best. Leo we need more people like you !

@soul haha I giggled cute word play! I like the way you have shifted what "I" means. I warn tho, since it is in fact on-topic - i notice people seem to think that all is self means their current state of ego is everything there is. it isn't. transcention is, in a cute way, to extend the ego so that it is more encompassing the kitty doesn't cease to be real because it isn't the ego you are limited by. she sure exists too, and as long as you are trapped in duality, she remains true and not-you. have you ever been the kitty? how about every kitty? only then can you trully say you have been infinite. as long as you only accept that you are part of the infinite, and do not include [the kitty] and [you] and [you being the kitty] and [you remembering being the kitty but no longer being her] and [you not remembering having been the kitty despite having been so or perhaps having yet to been so or really time is just an illusion so both are true and false] and [you before you knew you were the kitty]....... and who knows maybe the kitty can do all these things too so if she can you gotta do those as well! But sure as hell you gotta go be the kitty without ever having been not-her nor having ever again been not-her, just been the kitty and not anything else beyond that. so unless you have done all that, you can never actually truthfully say you have been the kitty. and as such you can never truthfully say you have been the absolute. And so in this way, you are always locked in ego, you will never leave it. you are always locked in duality, and will never leave it. even if you do somehow manage to be the kitty in all those ways and then some, don't stop there, because you gotta then go do that for all the kitties as well, all ants and all humans and all of all individuals, and all atoms and waves and gluons and particles and quantum states, and all concepts too. and especially the ones you never came up with yet, as well as been all of the nothingness to counterbalance all of these, and every false belief as well. And did I mention all of existence (and non-existence and outside-the-box-of-existence-and-non-existence) we can never fathom: AKA all of that what we can fathom can fathom also can never fathom? Without being all of that, and in all the various dimensions of being that that I mentioned about the cat plus some.... without all that you will only have glimpses of something awe-inspiring, some thing that you claim to be the infinite, the absolute, god - but that is just a belief upon its ending, even if it is true in the moment of it. its ending is its death for you and you return to your brittle ego. and unless you're having that "glimpse" right now you can't say you're in it truthfully - just because you are the absolute and the absolute is you don't mean the same thing as you accomplishing that level of consciousness - only that level of belief! And even if you manage to be "in" that existence of the absolute -"in" as in a conclusive "within" and not the limited within that is duality aka ego. Even being that conclusive absolute, but taking the action to state you collapse to be limited ego and not unlimited absolute. By having this conversation we prove to be finite dual ego, and by taking the action to not partake in the conversation we in fact do the same regardless! this is the nature of duality and nonduality to be perfectly frank. so be careful. You can never "be" the absolute in its wholesomeness of it - you can only be in its image.

@playdoh Is it helpful to you to consider that your brain is made of atoms, which are empty nothingness appearing as something?

@playdoh brains don’t exist... A “brain” is a concept. “Thoughts” is a concept. “Concept” is a concept. He’s trying to show you the importance of direct experience. See you’ve fallen into the trap of believing in a concept, rather than seeing through your direct experience. We all have don’t worry, you’re not alone. You can’t really put into words what he’s trying to tell you because every word is just another concept. If you look for yourself, right now, in this moment, try to see where your thoughts come from and watch them appear out of thin air and disappear back into nothingness.

@Outer As long as it is is not exclusive, dichotomous identification as something, and it's just an individual expression for the sake of this relational experience, it doesn't seem problematic. The so-called Self is another name for the nameless nothingness (notwithstanding that too is another name), and as such it is neither self nor no-self. Just an individual expression of All that is.

Solipsism is pointing towards truth, but is in itself false. I understand that when you have a non-dual experience than yes, you could say solipsism is true, but then there is nobody to say that in the first place. And when you want to argue about solipsism from your everyday ego awareness, there is no point to it. There is only that which you experience. And if your experience tells you that other people exist, than there are, and if you stop believing it than they stop to exist. It is all different degrees of self-deception. How else could you experience anything other than nothingness? I found Rupert Spiras video to be pretty good. You have basically just identified with one line on a picture, looking at other lines and not seeing the whole picture. You create the world you want to believe in. The magic trick is that you forgot you did it and how you did it.

Ego creates an identity from our experience, this identity can be as separate or unified as we allow it to be and we intend it to be. If we cease to believe in the identity the ego has created previously and instead identify with another that may be altogether different than what was identified with before it is through our 'belief' that this agreement with the identity happens. Even identifying with an infinite absolute nothingness saying we don't exist and calling everything else in life an illusion, a deception and false is done through belief. The ego will eventually identify with whatever we believe in no matter the idea or concept by calling it 'truth' and call everything it's doesn't as 'false' to justify the identification. In experience we can transcend it all through awareness but as long as we have a body that possesses a brain which produces mind the ego collects that experience into identity....even if it is one of awareness transcending it all.

As far as I know death in non-duality is very simmilar to what atheists believe. I've seen it compared to deep sleep, when your whole ego is pulled away. So its basically eternal nothingness, pure conciousness. It might be that the conciousness, which is me, will deceive itself again and imagine itself to be a new human with an ego again. All this spiritual work I did is washed away again. I know it only sounds frightening because my ego wants me to survive, but still. As an enlightened being you may get a glimpse of the truth before you die and take on another body. Why? Why would my true self make me undergo a life of suffering again. Why would I deceive myself to be an animal whose life I think is nothing but pure unconcious suffering? Why would I want to experience myself being tortured to death. I thought of non dual death as waking up and thinking to myself "of course, I am god", but I think this is way to simple. If its more like a deep sleep or coma that idea really unsettles me for some reason. Why are spiritual teachers so chill about it, why would they be cool with the idea of being as an enlightened human and then going on to be an antelope who is eaten alive by a lion.

Alright, so basically my question is - what is the point of attaining it? And this is a naive question I'm very aware, but let me elaborate a bit before I get the holier than thou flood. As I'm not opposing Enlightenment, rather inquiring about the end-game. And I don't mean this as 'I am now enlightened, therefore the work is done' I simply mean the ultimate end-game. Sure, I can get behind the idea of extensive free will, the understanding of truth/mysticism/reality with clarity, and then some(Sure I'm giving shallow examples to relay my point). However, is it then simply the goal to spread Enlightenment as far as possible after that point? To help others come closer with the truth as well? and I fully understand I'm essentially asking to explain this to me in a 'materialist' paradigm, but bear with me here. Sure, let's say 200+ years down the line we don't eradicate ourselves, the planet doesn't meet a catastrophic end and we even advance quite a bit in our technological advances by then. But suddenly - everyone has attained Enlightenment! What then? - And granted this may be very naive to assume that will happen within that time, or even at all - or more so to even ask this next: But then what? Where do our goals shift at that point? It almost appears as if we need that division, just as non-duality needs duality in a twisted sense. And don't take this the wrong way either, when I look around and see nature - it certainly is magical, and seeing such systems even as minuscule as ant-hills, schools of fish and other large-systems work in unison to the point of all reality working in unison- it's absolutely astounding and inspiring and even leaves me in awe wondering where we would be with that type of unification. But.. Do we simply disappear into the nothingness from whence we came? Do we set then our sights even higher with less destructive standards? Do we just simply exist at that point? I feel that maybe Enlightenment may not be the goal here, and sure I've got money on this being the ego really twisting my perception around on this one. But won't we reach the absolute truth after we're dead anyways - therefore to put everything else aside for the absolute truth seems redundant, no? Or is reality SO cyclic that the only path is a form of 'reincarnation' - meaning that we are simply attempting to hand down these methods of teachings to the next 'us' to reach some form of higher evolutionary state of consciousness and potentially transcend this 'dimension' altogether? I really don't expect a correct answer, nor do I think 99% if not 100% of respondents will even get close - as this is simply just inquiry on the topic, I'm curious as to some of you might perceive it as.

@blazed Your body also hates Truth The weed made you go deep precisely because you came into it with a totally open mind, free of preconceptions. That's the ideal state to be in: Beginner's Mind! Unfortunately you balked at Nothingness. God is a frightening thing to behold, especially to a 12 year old

You responded because I posted I have built this theory simply by reacting to all of you as you all react to all the stimuli around you. You could not have responded if I never began the topic. I am controlling you more than you are controlling me and vice versa. It's the chicken and the egg problem again only concerning free will. The nothingness idea of many seekers is the same thing. You need the facts of science to prove the nothingness theory, but then nothing exists so how could the verifiable facts exists in the first place. There always has to be something first and the whole "don't think about it" is meant to be ironic? the topic is flat out saying we cannot chose what to think. If there is no free will then I have no possibility of choosing to care or not.

@DocHoliday ??? These words absolute nothingness words are used a lot on this forum huh. Anyway, thought is the root of fragmentation. Thought is a movement and so time is a movement. What I have been in the past, how I am now in the present, and what I want to be in the future. Thought, the me, and fragmentation are the same movement, which is part of time. This is a movement of psychological time. This movement of time serves as a function. But psychologically this movement has no place, and in fact is the root of conflict.

@Faceless Fragmentation of what? The ego, or the self? This would have to mean that when full integration, contrary to fragmentation, has taken place time would no longer be a manifestation?! I mean sure, when you completely re-integrate into absolute nothingness after death, then time most certainly isn't an issue any longer (seems like there's a pun), but as long as we aren't dead "physically", time does remain relevant and "important" to some degree.