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Ridley Scott's themes suck. He tries to get all philosophical about it but it just comes off amateurish and ruins what should be a simple Giger monstrosity show. Androids ruined the entire Alien franchise. It should be a show about Xenomorphs and their horrific ancient homeworld. The xenomorph lore and homeworld should be along the lines of the game Scorn. Not generic human hi-tech sci-fi tripe. A proper Alien sequel must involve exploring the lore of the xenomorph homeworld, which is an HR Giger biomechncial horror world where no amount of human technology lets humans survive.

Here is a video essay on alien franchise that outlines several reoccouring themes, a struggle of ego and technology and corporacracy intertwined, though Ridley Scot had his own biblical musings tied in and perhaps giving other vibe and perhaps more depth to his depictions

@DodoI dont trust a man that dosent tear up once when talking about God. Except Bashar cause hes an alien and he cant cry.

Uhhh... Rupert Spira is just sane... He is my favourite nonduality teacher actually. You will get no bs from him. This alien consciousness stuff is bs, its Daryl all him, he's just playing a role... its just his style of teaching, to his audience. Not everyone is for Rupert Spira retreats, and not everyone is for Bashar. They have different type of audience. I am not interested in Bashar talks, not nondual enough 😀 i like someone saying that the knower and the known are made of the same knowing. Im not into solipsism, im into nonduality. Not talking about one mind, but one consciousness. Minds are collection of thoughts perceptions/conceptions [aka movements of consciousness] within consciousness, mind is not consciousness.

@DodoI think he is a solipsist. Id argue bashar would say in order to get alien powers you need to be a solipsist. How is Bashar talking to Daryl? His own mind and Bashars own mind. The people who say its not solipsism are judging the word. The word means its all in mind specifically yours cause everyone and everything is in your mind. It dosent mean you have to be mean like people automatically assume. You can still be yourself and talk to yourself in your mind we do it all day. When you see Rupert Spira have such a negative reaction to the word you know hes a sick fuck. If you discovered God was like a television with infinite channels and realised you could just change the channel and the experience you had of every person in the room suddenly dissapeared and new people appeared in a new room. Then you switched back and they were still moving and talking and your body was still moving and talking, would you assume there are other people? Theres no way to know. So its automatically yes because you only have experience of yourself.

Wanted to dedicate a thread for real examples of serious people doing serious spirituality. I’ll start with mine. I’ll keep it concise. 10/11/25: At-Home Meditation Retreat Started at 8am with meditation for a 2 hour sit. The main techniques used were breath awareness, open awareness, and light self-inquiry. I took a brief break to use the bathroom and adjust myself. I returned and continued for another 2 hours focusing on stillness leading up to self-inquiry. The main questions contemplated were “What am I, What is Consciousness?” I kept my consciousness on the awareness that I am the entire room. Thoughts of media and videogames kept distracting my attention and I kept returning back to breath and self-inquiry. I had the insight just how much influence the media has had over my mind and how much garbage and past relationships my mind is focused on. Took another break for lunch and just stared at my hands while contemplating consciousness. My hands started to look alien. I kept my awareness on the field of consciousness. Whenever my mind wandered, I returned back to the questions of “What is consciousness? How does this hand exist at all?” Additional questions came up such as “Why does consciousness exist at all?” “How did consciousness decide to experience/create my current life?” Took another brief break and spent the next 2 hours in a dark room in my closet and continued my previous meditation techniques. Nothing new happened here but more mind wandering. Took a break for a brief snack and returned to meditation. I sat for another couple hours and after a while my mind got still. I started feeling love and joy going through every cell of my being. I started having a big smile on my face that I couldn’t resist. It felt like I was on mushrooms for a moment. I started to feel satisfied with my own mind in pure existence. I tried to keep this awareness for as long as I could. My legs started to fall asleep so I had to do some walking meditation for a bit which got me out of that state. I spent the rest of the time contemplating existential topics such as death, eternity, the first cause, time, memory, and my purpose. At around 7pm I couldn’t keep focus anymore and so I decided to end it for today. My main takeaways is how much noise and garbage filled my mind. My mind resisted stillness in the form of thoughts about media and entertainment. I also realized how much I do love my mind because I was able to think creative thoughts and have insights. Other insights I had is that I am imagining time, memory, and the past. The past and memory are nothing but a construction of consciousness. I realized deeper that my consciousness is creating everything I see and hear in a similar way it creates thought/imagination. I also realized that I need to practice meditation more often and that I have been mistreating my mind. Thats all for now.

Any path that leads to peace is good. If I could understand Arabic i would read the actual works of Khalil Gibran, Also for most people it makes sense to stay close to your source, language and culture has an intricate way of seeping into one's DNA and foreign ideologies remain Alien to a certain extent no matter how deeply you incorporate them. It looks like a show or an act for some reason. The truth is in you, just use the tools that are closest to you, don't go too far.

As I grow older and mature more, more and more people slowly drop out of my life. Less and less new people I find interesting. And so, as an extrovert, I am really glad there is a place like this to socialize, crack some Alien dad jokes, and share some deep thoughts. Deeply appreciate ya’ll, and thank you Leo for hosting this for us.

Lmao sure. I haven't watched those videos, you can go find them yourself if you're genuinely curious and not simply trying to "hah I won the argument because he didn't use the YouTube search bar for me". Rupert Spira sells enlightenment. He does events. But this is still just weak "making money on enlightenment means conman". Inb4 Leo drops the newest course on Alien Awakening or whatever. I don't know what that means. Everybody is skeptical about Tolle, he is like the scapegoat for guru skeptics.

Um.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy) The essence of the ring (appearance) is gold (Absolute). But the essence of gold (Absolute) is not the ring (appearance). "In philosophy (often specifically metaphysics), the absolute,[a] in most common usage, is a perfect, self-sufficient reality that depends upon nothing external to itself.[2] In theology, the term is also used to designate the supreme being or God. While the notion of the absolute varies across traditions and thinkers, it generally signifies something that transcends all forms of limitation, relativity, and contingency" I guess appearance depends upon "something/nothing/THAT"... Take away appearance, and THAT remains... The Reality of appearance is "the" Absolute. The Reality of "the" Absolute is not the appearance. Of course, emptiness is form, and form is emptiness. But appearance, or illusion, is.... not quite the "self-sufficient reality that depends upon nothing external to itself". Because its, um, temporary. Reality = permanent. Or maybe there is some realization which you have not yet had about "that" which watches the whole Ant/Human/Alien/God gig.... Who knows? But you do you, and I do.... apparently also you. Ain't "we" are having fun. Uhum. Btw., in case you guys start a discussion about Solipsism during the gig in the usual forum style, I guess even the Godess doesn't want to miss that. Something for WbtRs Bucket List for this lifetime: 10 tripping ladies & gentlemen in a nondual boundless state with remaining egos "residual-individuality-arisings" discussing with each other which one is now the One (and only). A pity heretics like poor me probably won't get admitted. Did you notice that your event is also in the (literally) Selling Water by the River business, as in Well, its an honourable endeavour, at least if not approached too seriously - because of the absolutely hilarious nature of the self-contradictory gig if taken too seriously. So I wish you and all participants good luck in not getting into too serious solipsistic discussions during the event while tripping & selling Water by the River. My recommendation would be: Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses by the River

Your consciousness yes. But that consciousness is not the Absolute, it is a mere appearance. Ant and Ant consciousness arising, Human and human consciousness arising, Alien and Alien consciousness arising. Arising/appearing in THAT. YOU are aware of it. Aware of the Ant, of Leo, of the Alien. That which is truly aware, which is truly the Absolute Subject, the Ultimate Looker, never changes. No moving parts. Selling "no moving parts makes maintenance free" by the River

Ain't we I You God Leo It THAT Clap of the one Hand having fun? Yes, according to pretty much all OBElers yes (I like Jürgen Ziewe). And why not? Makes the game a bit more juicy. Leo can become his alien, but maybe after another few lifes have thaught him that considering the zombies rats rodents fellow childen of his own Being a little bit more benevolent. Like, a Kindergarten-planet with many many growing children eager to learn, each with its own curriculum and needs.... And planet Earth can provide lessons Leos idea that everbody ending up as stable Infinity upon death is in contradiction to all OBElers having explored the Afterlife Realms. Why should the 2nd grader suddenly get its PHd - sounds a bit traumatizing, and robbing the poor chap its wonderful journey through school and college. We shall all see... That is the one thing in life that is totally assured: The final out of body experience. Nobody gets left behind. Anyways, where have we been... Ah, yes: The only "thing" that cares about ignorance (ignorance defined as seeing any arising/appearance as "other") being gone forever is.... ignorance-arisings. So maybe, when the Avatar is developed enough, after maybe having been an angel, a planetery consciousness, or a being that spawns a whole Universe in its being/perspective, and n+1 .... becoming a bit more stupid and ignorant again becomes quite very attractive? Ever had the feeling that THIS was a really interesting dream the night before, totally bought into its exciting (although totally ignorant with lots of "other") story? That you would miss something if that was no longer possible again (ever)? As Francis Lucille once said: Ignorance is only a bad idea from the perspective of ignorance. As Consciousness/Being/Reality: Who cares? Nothing to loose.... And, from a personal perspective: Nothing can ever truly happen to True Being. Neither loose, neither gain. Ignorant or not, even the ignorance is only arising, never have I been that. Ever. THAT is always right here, ever was, ever will be, can not not be. There never was anything beyond a mere illusion-arising appearing to believe in ignorance/other. Was never truly the case. Can never be. But how tremendously beautiful that ignorance/other arising is even possible! Enjoying looking forward to this life, the realms beyond, an alien or two, the planet-gig, assembling this or that realm, and then maybe enjoying another juicy drama of ignorance all of over again. And all of that words/meanings are just ripples on the mere appearing surface of the River, which in Reality doesn't move, become or change in the slightest. PS: I know. Blah Blah Blah. But: There is good Blah Blah Blah, and bad Blah Blah Blah. Blah Blah good? (the no-foreign-language-warning-point fraction may be so kind to click on auto-translate. Gracie!)

Those alien civilizations were promised to the Jews by god 3,000 years ago...

He understands well his society Shit you have the heart of a lion, You are right, if an alien society comes and says that this galactic sector is under their jurisdiction, but that I will continue to retain my properties, I will have citizen status and they will also bring technology that will make me immortal, I will say: no!!!!! in the name of Muhammad I will educate my children to commit suicide since nothing is more terrible than not being sovereign! I want to be subjected to an retarded Spanish dictator! Only he can sodomize me and put me in jail for 25 years for a comment on Instagram!! But they're not aliens. They're Jews who've lived in that land for 3,000 years. There's always been a Jewish presence, and when Israel was founded, there were half a million living there. They didn't oppress or steal. They brought wealth and prosperity, openness and vitality. Why don't collaborate and grow together as a society? Maybe because Muslims don't want to grow, just go to paradise? Listen this Muslim, he's smart https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNxiSB52NbW/?igsh=bG1qNm44ZG1oaGc4

@Breakingthewall So people are mentally ill and retarded for resisting displacement or loss of control? You’re using wordplay to deflect from the main issue - by saying they’d still be on the land even if it’s just within a Jewish state. Well, any remaining Ukrainians will still be in the Donbass after Russia has annexed it from Ukraine - so it’s cool? It’s like me saying you no longer own your house and are now a tenant who rents it - but technically your still in the house so its fine? Note - you’re IN the house, it’s not YOUR house anymore. But don’t worry - I’m a great landlord and won’t hike your rent too much papi. You said you’d blow a superior people to benefit from their development. Would you whore yourself out to be under Alien rule with their superior development? Humans have a soul and certain dignity to themselves not tied simply to the material world. Majority of humans have fought for self-determination regardless of the “other” who may determine the outcome of their lives better - hence the entire anti-colonial struggle. Your framework just sells your soul to the highest bidder. When the Chinese are ahead of the West in the next decades invite them to rule you and suck them off too as you’ve said you’ll do.

@zazen come to the real world. Israel is the best thing that could have happened to the Palestinians and the Middle East in general. They can't continue living in the Middle Ages, stoning adulterers, hanging gays, and killing blasphemers in the 30th century. When we open interdimensional portals and communicate with alien civilizations, what would happen if one of them drew a picture of Muhammad? Have you thought about that? An intergalactic war! That would be terrible!

Thats a bad thing? Assimilating US values to loosen some of their conservative values Who is going to liberalize them when its an alien concept to them?

Agree with all of that. But WHAT is watching all of these Alien/Divine/whatever consciousness/arising/imaginings? All of that x/y/z/n+1/Alien/Divine/... consciousness is... temporal imagined arising(s). Even human/Alien/Divine consciousness is not the Absolute Looker/Subject/Reality/Being, but an appearance. Temporal, arising within THAT, and gone a bit later. Watched by WHAT? In WHAT? Made out of WHAT? What watches all of that? What never changes? What is never not the case? What are you truly? What eats the ant/human/alien/divine being for breakfast? THAT which manifests/imagines the whole gig within its boundless Reality/Being, and at the same time is aware of it. THAT which can "forget" or unimagine its realization of what "itself" is anytime... while never not being itself, even if that realization is lost. THAT can never loose itself, or become anything else. Yet, it explores its imagined potential of x/y/z/Ant/Human/Alien/Divine Being-consciousness and the worlds these consciousness perceive forever. And btw., none of that invalidates what you say, that alien/divine/.../n+1/whatever is a much grander perspective of God understanding herself. Its just, well, all of that doesn't change the unchanging Reality a bit. Did (true) YOU ever change, or just the temporary waves/ripples on you imagined surface? Leo, how about you answer this one? Isn't that bringing your "God/THAT/Reality imagines it all" theory/concept/experience nearer its final conclusion? And as always, since THAT never truly changes, "that" which is truly aware, and "we" are it already... meet you "there" already Leo. The various "consciousness" from ant to human to Alien to Divine Being are the "subject"-side of the manifestation. Changing, relative, like the "objective"-side of the "world". Like arising lenses that THAT uses to create, watch and understand its manifestations & light-show in different ways. What is aware of the boundless limitless Totality of all of that, having that arising within "It"self? What is unchanging Reality that sees ant, human, Alien, Divine Being arise within "It"-self. PS: Becoming part-time Alien/ then part-time-Divine Being, on which we recently learned after Alien comes Divine Beings, so whats next? Hint: Infinity = n+1 = forever.... https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Alien&author=Water by the River It seems that our two Rivers are approaching the same ocean... Maybe soon we will be selling Water by the River and laughing at the illusion and ultimate joke of that activity, and throwing Koans at the waves of the River. But hey, what else is there to do than (hopefully) celebrating manifestation, enjoying creation/manifestation for Infinity, and... Selling Water by the River PS: Now the Backup-Koan, since all of the above is just illusion: Basho: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! And: Who is hearing these words right now?

After a couple of pages it is already established that that is going to be the dynamic. Coupled with autism Olympics going on alien consciousness steriods.

@Leo Gura, I'm not trying to specifically cast a doubt on what you've been saying through these years. I know that you've been hammering on the "surgery" part. That's what makes your theories worth listening to, at least for me. Though, a lot of your God, alien, etc., theories I don't know what it actually points to because I barely have experience with psychedelics. So, I'm trying to treat them as possibilities, even though they sound very interesting and deep to me. But your theory must be as deep as your experience of "surgery" allows it to be.

No. I'm not sure if there is such a reason. Maybe. No. I would explore Alien Love and other advanced things which a human mind cannot fathom. Even if you have, this retreat will take you deeper. There is a lot more depth to God which we are after. I have done over 500 trips and I would still benefit from this retreat if I was a participant. I still benefit greatly from this chemical even if I take it today. There is no ceiling to it. No, Malt is not legally sound. I am not going to do legally sketchy stuff with you guys.

Excited about the idea of a psych retreat! @Leo Gura we've yet to get any indication of when you'll deliver on Alien Consciousness & Awakening courses-not to mention the Actualized.org book. Why should be hold out hope for this innovative bold idea? (and i say this not as a critic, but a loyal fan of Actualized.org )

Yes. Alien Consciousness is just an advanced stage of realizing God. God is all sorts of alien consciousnesses. And then there is a level beyond the alien into the minds of dieties. I have been so conscious that I access the minds of dieties. That's unknown yet. Maybe. I am working on something very custom. My retreats will be safer than ayahuasca retreats.

@Leo Gura do I need god Realization first for alien mind? I am looking forward for your alien mind course one day, too.

Introduction My feet are raw: cuts, pine pitch and all My hands are sore: abraised, puffy, and looking like "a job well done" My head is on fire: like an inflamed computer chip still running on overdrive My soul? alive and complete, as is The trip 150ug LSD is consumed orally at 8:30am. It was a hot summer day in northern-central Arizona. I pulled on my forest green pants and a tan-colored hiking shirt. I looked like a forest ranger ready for action. I packed my notebook and strapped on my compass. I noted the tent's proximity to the cliff and the general compass direction I walked so I could find my way back. The weather was 75-95⁰F & partly cloudy. As I maneuvered through heavy pine forest, wiggling around some branches, bending others, I got the feeling that something massive was about to happen. I kept my composure; the day had just begun. Eventually I hit a clearing with a new view beyond the cliffs. I set-up my collapsible tri-pod chair a safe distance from the cliffs to contemplate, journal, and be. Dozens of ants scuttled by. At first I feared they were of the aggressive type. Not fired red, but a more brown color. Not one climbed on me. I realized 90+% of nature is chill with you if you are still and relaxed around it. As I stared off the cliff (into the abyss) I began to feel deeper into my body. Initial thoughts included gratitude for Julien Blanc's trauma healing program I just went through, including the new friends I made in the process. Also my reverence for natural beauty and the fact I developed enough self-trust to trip in nature, near 200-foot sandstone cliffs, a 10-minute hike from my friend. It was feeling and a more realistic kind of joy: one with a healthy dose of underlying discomfort. Discomfort in the sense of the hot weather and possibly of encounters with wildlife. But the only wildlife that approached were flies, who I recognized as organic robot-like alien creatures with as much reason to exist as other life. They exude their own natural beauty. And they're even friendly and chill as long as you're not swatting at them constantly. Behind me, I heard a digging sound. I turned and focused with the gaze of a hawk letting his telescoping vision work for him. I saw a couple of small shrubs get yanked into the ground. A mole rat popped its head up. I felt giddy, but stayed quiet. I wanted to leave it be, but also go chase it (later in the day I would chase lizards across the campsite like a 8 year old boy, unabashed). When the heat of the sun kicked up a notch and the LSD began taking more effect, I jumped up and explored my newly charted territory one last time. Then I realized my water supply was already low and felt the call of camp. "It's time to find the tent". I recalled my compass direction and took a straight-shot back. But not without some fear. I felt a literal sensation of 'overcoming' in the pit of my being. "Holy shit. Its just me out here and getting back to camp is ON ME." I felt dizzy and a little like a survival dude who's wondering if he'd made a wrong move. I smiled in the face of it and moved ahead with strength and focus. My body filled with chemicals I'd associate with discipline and healthy fear. I knew how to get back but felt fear like I was enduring physical survival from scratch. Oddly I enjoyed it. Suddenly? The tent I was looking for quite literally popped out of things air a good 50 feet in front of me. A gigantic grin blossomed on my face. I felt like I'd just gone through the native American tradition of going into the woods as a rite of passage to become a man (though i didn't find a totem animal) and was now arriving to stand with the other men. I approached the tent, slowly unzipped it, and entered. My friend was pretending to sleep; how cute. I got cozy and prepared for the fast-approaching peak of the trip. It felt like a tender moment was about to unfold. So I lied down, eyes closed. Out of nowhere, I saw a pink image on a black background. It looked like a vagina made of vibrant desert flowers. The vagina then started to curve into itself, with the flowers getting consumed beneath the lips. It was insanely beautiful, and I became overtaken in total rapture by the sight of it. As the image of the pink desert vagina faded, my body became ultra-relaxed. Then, it started to spasm. Uncontrollably. Completely spontaneous. I allowed myself to relax further. And of course, the spasming increased. I began feeling an energy that I associated to the desert flower vagina image. It felt so incredibly right. Then something unbelievable happened. It's honestly difficult to explain using conventional language... But in a nutshell, my body form of consciousness and my mind/soul/spirit form of consciousness started to function as totally separate entities. While my body was trembling and flailing about my mind was 'talking' and imagining whatever it wanted. Nothing in particular, but I could tell it was functioning autonomously, similar to musical instruments playing completely different parts in a larger symphony. As this imminent physical experience went on, a great selflessness washed over me. I turned to my friend and in a mumbling voice said, "This is what de-traumatization looks like." I decided the theme of this trip would be about healing & reclaiming. I'd been working on somatic experiencing for the past 2 months and this felt like the climax of all of my hard work. Once my body settled down, my friend said he was gonna go to his van and chop up some honeydew. He came back with this insane, monster platter of honeydew melon, sliced horizontally in a triangle, covered in honey with a pile of cashews at the base. I freaked out like a kid at the candy store when he brought it in. I ate a few pieces, but felt full quick (usually eat only half the amount if food I normally eat when on LSD). Moments later, I found honey all over the inside of my right arm. I proceeded to laugh 10x harder than was necessary (just kidding it was so necessary haha). After washing off my arm, the heat and vibrations of the forest suggested to me that I de-clothe. Outside the tent ready to explore again, I stripped down all the way to sunbathe for a moment—standing up. I quickly realized I'd better shield the delicate areas. So, I threw my underwear back on. I ran through the forest, in the camping area, hopping from rock to rock. I felt as light as a cloud. My balance was insanely good too. My buddy grabbed my attention and said I should try the slackline. "That's such a hippy activity I never really got into," I thought. But in that moment all I could think was "Why the fuck not, I wanna have some fun!" We set it up and I remember getting up there and falling over and over again. Eventually I got bored of trying to walk it and began swinging on it. I'd sit on it, fall back, then cling to it with my leg and hands, swinging like a monkey the way I did when I was a little kid on the playground (I used to be one of the most skilled kids of playground equipment back then). Goofing around like this made me feel like a little kid again and like I was living the dream I'd always wanted to take back. I felt so incredibly happy. But not in a "high" way... just fulfilled. Next thing I remember is I was far enough beyond the peak of the trip I could walk on the tilted sandstone slabs that made up the canyon cliff-faces in a safe and explorative way. To my surprise i found mini cactus plants that I didn't know existed this far north in Arizona. Me and my friend explored around. He dug out a cave and we kept throwing rocks off the cliff (classic stupid fun things you do). After that I went back up to the forest floor, lied flat, and gave the earth a full-body hug. As I was coming down, the sun began to set. Me and my friend went to his van to make some dinner. Still, I kept splashing my face with water because of the heat. My hands and feet began to feel hot from all of the raw interaction with nature I'd had that day (barefoot and all). I slipped on socks and sandals to honor myself a little bit. A job well done in meeting nature raw and honest today. Indeed. But now it was time to balance it out. I chopped veggies for my friend and he sautéed the mushrooms, green beans, zucchini, and eggs into a masterpiece. I tasted every flavor and how they interacted with each other, like a Mozart symphony. A strange part about this trip is I felt so selfless it's as if I was free from the human mind and even the idea that I was tripping (as wild as it sounds). Everything was just consciousness. No physics and not even the idea of metaphysics. Only pure, raw being. This trip wasn't just another weak-ass, protected 'museum' dose' in an A/C controlled studio. Rather, I embraced the forest, including the theme of trauma, as a general rule of nature and life. I saw this trip as a healing experience. Not pleasant nor dark, just simply a rigorous, focused process. It also felt like a more intense dose of rugged exploration and nomadic living. I could feel the beauty of nature and also the harshness of it; I was reminded of the necessity of modern medicine and basics like clothing, clean shelter, and electricity to sustain higher baselines of consciousness as I go about life. The rawness element of this trip penetrated my soul fast and deep: the LSD accelerated a typical immersion in nature that would take 1-2 weeks to achieve (I've camped in Mongolia and Alaska before and usually immersion takes a while). I didn't sleep easy that night, but I did learn something. My feet, hands, and head were all inflamed. So even though my core body temperature was perfectly stable, the inflammation kept me up until the coolness of night balanced it out. It all made me realize I need to protect myself and honor my highly sensitive person (HSP) nature even further than before. This is something I'm going to get more serious about, and I do not care what people think. Trip rankings Depth was a 8/10 Spiritual rigor was definitely a 10/10 Preparedness was a 4/10 (heat and too little care to extremities) Overall something like a 7/10 Definitely would recommend if you're adventurous (and a little crazy) like me. Metaphysical themes encountered Strange loops, infinite holarchy, infinite nonduality (every duality in every domain reconciled), radical and intelligent selflessness. ••• Dear reader, Have you tripped in nature before? If so how was it? What came up? Or, have you used psychs to confront trauma in a direct manner before?