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About soos_mite_ah

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  1. I mean yeah. I don't know what else to say except no shit that's what we find generally attractive (and I mean everyone has their specific type or flavor they are attracted to but yeah that is like the bare minimum). I guess I would add consistency and an understanding of basic women's issues in order to not be a dick and make a woman safe, having boundaries/ self respect to the reward category and overt aggression and manipulation (as in pushing boundaries) in the punishment category. Yeah I have been doing this since I was 15 in order to understand what I like and why other women act the way they do. Because I didn't have many opportunities to date for a variety of reasons, what I did to understand what I like in a guy (and I know this might be weird) is analyze guys that are around me, even if it is platonic, to see what qualities do I find attractive or not attractive. Also as I grew up and I started getting approached more, I noticed what things did or didn't make me uncomfortable in regards to a guy's demeanor. There are guys who have approached me who might not have been my type, or I just ended up not liking them for whatever reason but nevertheless I was comfortable with giving them a chance to go on a date because there weren't overt red flags or they didn't give me a weird gut feeling. I might not like a guy, but I know decent flirting and decent approaches when I see it. Also, girls talk about this shit to each other and we do it to analyze why we do what we did or what feeling came up to compare and contrast experiences but also process different situations. But the problem I find is that as soon as we identify those things and try to say something, we get shot down with "don't ask a fish how to catch one." As far as bad gut reactions go, it's the stuff like negging, pretending who we need a guy to be, flirting with other people to make us jealous, etc. that gives a lot of women a bad vibe. And sometimes we can't put our finger on it, but we know something is off. The women who do fall for those things either tend to be naive or not as aware of the dynamics that are involved in a situation with a guy. It can also be a lack of intuition or a misstep in judgement tbh. Sometimes those can be a one off mistake but other times we ignore the signs in our gut and intuition because there is some type of trauma regarding self worth and we desperately want to hang on to a man. In other words, it isn't healthy. Maybe when it comes to first approach yeah. But in a lot of cases, especially in dating to get into a relationship, we don't have biologically masterful understanding of what a quality man is. A lot of it is socialization and what we were exposed to as children. For both men and women, we aren't attracted to what is necessarily healthy for us, we are attracted to what feels familiar because familiarity means safety. A woman who is constantly attracted to guys who are blatantly not good for her, treat her like shit, verbally (or hell sometimes) physically abuse her, typically grew up or were exposed to a lot of dynamics that played out in similarly unhealthy ways. She is not going to be attracted to quality men. Some cases are more extreme than others but a large chunk of women do have things they need to sort through to develop a taste for quality men. We all have some work to do because we live in an unconscious society and were likely raised by unconscious parents. That can also be told for men as well. There is a reason why some guys are attracted to crazy and choose crazy and that is most often because they on some level are also crazy themselves. May not be the same type of crazy but it complements the girl's crazy and is on the same level.
  2. I read a few of the articles on here (didn't read the product review or guide, some of them are super weird tbh). Most of the advice is good / obvious (ie. basic social skills), some of it is a off, and sometimes the advice they have, even if it is good it's phrased and articulated in a really weird way that can carry regressive undertones. I've actually gotten a lot of the same advice as a woman as well so it's not like the advice is only for men even though it is marketed as such. And in general dating I notice that the best way to differentiate between conscious and unconscious sources is to evaluate what the source thinks is a desirable man/woman (lets just say the ideal you want to be). Another way is to see how they define a quality guy/girl (who is the best to pursue). If both of those things seem reasonable go forth, if it seems mostly reasonable , go with a grain of salt, and if it seems regressive and toxic af, run. Normally when I would think about pick up and how it is manipulative I mainly think of the contents of this article. Before me really looking into it and the different types of pick up, this was my initial intro to pickup:
  3. It's good that you are trying to see god's perspective. But in order to move into tier 2, you need to be able to differentiate between the absolute POV and the relative POV and understand which is applicable in a conversation. I know that evil technically doesn't exist in the nature of reality in the absolute perspective but in this thread and discussion, I'm not trying to discuss the absolute. I'm discussing the relative, specifically the relative female perspective on pick up vs the relative male perspective. I guess what I'm trying to say, lets not get too ahead of ourselves. Expecting society to fix itself can easily turn to stagnation. Yes on the collective, we are all going on a certain trajectory, but the collective is also made of individuals, and as individuals we can't simply stay idle, look at each other, and do nothing. Society will fix itself but we are still part of society and we need to do our part whether it is having difficult conversations, in acting policy, having a life purpose etc. It doesn't mean we have to riot and demonize. And in this case it is also looking at the limitations and the strengths of things such as pick up. You can literally say that about anything from an absolute perspective. Right now we are talking about the relative perspective. Be careful of false equivalencies.
  4. I can see how learning how to date or attract someone in order to get your foot in the door does not equate to learning how to be in a healthy relationship. To me learning how to date also involves learning what you want and selecting a healthy partner wisely if that is what you wish to do. And in order to choose a healthy partner or to be appealing to a healthy partner, it's important to have your own house in order. Which is why sometimes doing things right else where in your life can help you be more successful in your dating life and vice versa. In order to do all that and get into a healthy relationship to where you are a good partner, you're going to need a lot of self awareness and sometimes a shit ton of therapy. Solving a confidence issue or social awkwardness is scratching the surface of developing yourself as a person when it comes to conscious relationships. Sometimes, people can go from being a socially awkward dumpster fire to a charismatic dumpster fire especially in the cases of red pill pick up. Which is why it's important to differentiate between curating a skill and actually growing as a person. Curating a skill can look like developing enough social skills to get laid but real growth involves changing your mindset, raising your consciousness, and evaluating your values.
  5. When I catch myself feeling indecisive, I ask myself this question. Which option feels like peace or rest? Now peace or rest does not mean you are running away from something or that you are going to go into a period of laziness (or who knows your situation may need some time of inaction to clear your head). Rest/Peace means what seems like the most rejuvenating to my soul. This feeling isn't avoidant, it isn't manic, rather it is very calm and intuitive. That can be different things to different people depending on their situation. For some people "rest" looks like putting themselves out there more and letting loose. For others it means retreating from the world for a bit. For some people, putting themselves out there is getting exhausting because they have fully exhausted that need and therefore not a healthy decision for them. For others, they feel like they are going stir crazy from being in solitude all the time so that isn't a healthy choice for them. It's not about the choice you make rather it is the mindset you are using to make that choice that determines whether it is healthy for you. I bolded the statements that I thought were telling. From what I understand, you have lived out all your needs in regards to the external world as far as putting yourself out there goes and now you want to take a break from that. But there is only so much I can understand. I can't feel the right answer for you. I don't know if this desire to retreat is coming from avoidance, and therefore resistance, or if you want to go towards solitude, and therefore seeking it out or authentically manifesting what you want. I hope that makes sense.
  6. Yeah I would also stress the importance of having close female friends purely on a platonic basis. A lot of my guy friends who typically understand women better are the ones that have female friends they aren't involved with. Then those guys take whatever they know about female nature intuitively they learned through those friendships and they can apply it to their dating life and as a result they are typically perceived better and know how to deal with women more. Personally, I see a guy who has some female friends that he isn't romantically or sexually involved with as a green flag because it tells me that women generally are comfortable around him and he can get along with women in general on a deeper level.
  7. I really appreciate your insight and yeah this was my main goal into starting this thread. I was hoping to see what elements of my resistance comes up in my end and what comes up in other people's end in order to understand the situation better. I noticed myself getting triggered and at this point I feel like I'm in a less reactive place to lean into that discomfort and come out the other side with more understanding rather than frustration.
  8. I watched this video as well as a few others by him. It seems like really reasonable advice. I have a couple disagreements here (but then again that is me with literally any self help type of video because I try to take things with a grain of salt) and there but the overall premise of the video appears very healthy. It also mirrors a lot of the other dating advice videos I have watched that were geared towards women which I find interesting because it tells me that the process of attraction has a lot more similarities between the sexes. I guess if I were to find this video on my own, I would be more likely to just label this as general dating advice rather than pick up (but perhaps that is because of my previous limited understanding of the range of pick up across different levels of consciousness). I guess my question is, what is the difference between regular dating advice and pick up if there is any?
  9. I'm not trying to shame guys who get into pick up rather sometimes I do criticize pick up itself. Not to be cliche but it's the whole love the sinner hate the sin type of deal. But I feel that any critique to pick up can cause men to feel like they are being attacked because pick up can get tied to your identity like a lot of things. In this thread, I'm trying to understand pick up and present why it is I and many women get triggered by this type of content and language. I apologize if my long responses may look like I'm trying to fight but I honestly want to make sure I'm not missing anything in what I have to say and so that I can try to develop a more nuanced take on this apart from my initial *RED ALERT* response. I didn't plan on getting into my point of view in regards to my relationship with dating because I didn't want to stray from the topic, but here I find it necessary. While I can't fully empathize with what it's like to be a guy in this situation, I do know what it's like to be a woman with little experience with the opposite sex. I also see some parallels which I do find interesting and applicable to this discussion. As a woman who didn't get any attention from guys (other than the sketchy kind I talked about in my original post), I did wanted to get better at dating and understanding how to maneuver these types of situations. I wanted a sense of normalcy because in my mind as someone who was then 18, never had a boyfriend, never kissed a guy, and sure as hell haven't had anything remotely sexual happen to me, I felt as if I was being left behind from my peers. I was afraid that these experiences made me less mature and socially inept. But most of all, I doubted my own sense of desirability and at times I did fall into a victim narrative where I thought things along the lines of "men are sociopathic assholes who just want to fuck and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" "no good guys exist/ good guys are extremely rare" "I'm not attractive to men nor am I relationship material" and "there is something inherently wrong with me." Plus, being seen as beautiful and worthy of a relationship, being pursued in a romantic sense, and having a relationship are very tied with femininity and often toxically so. I know a lot of women who base their self worth on whether or not they are in a relationship because society has taught us that this is what is the most important thing to have as a woman. Forget being smart, forget your success, the fact that you don't have a man means you are a failure and you are unlovable in some way. You are fucked up if you are single. I would imagine that as a man in a similar situation, you do feel abnormal and left behind for not having those experiences. And while it isn't the same as my situation, I can see how having a lot of sexual experience is very tied with masculinity therefore not being good with girls can feel very, not necessarily feminine, but rather emasculating. I can imagine wanting to scapegoat you're lack of experience to other areas of your life that you might feel insecure about whether that be you socioeconomic status, your looks, your introverted personality etc. I can imagine feeling like you are doing everything right in terms of being nice and still not getting anywhere therefore you build up this victim narrative of "women are sociopathic assholes who want money and materialistic things and move on with their lives, they could never care about me" or "there is something inherently wrong with me" Plus, sexual experience is very tied with masculinity because we expect men to be horny all the time and constantly be out looking for sex. That can be pretty toxic. Especially with being a virgin, in some ways I can see it being worse for guys because there is no archetype of masculinity (at least from what I can think of) that is inclusive to guys who lack experience. In other words, you are fucked up if you are single. For both genders, society puts a lot of emphasis on being in a relationship or having sexual experience, and it isn't healthy for either gender. I've had people who when they find out that I'm a virgin or that I haven't had a boyfriend ever, they are shocked. They are always like "but you're so funny and smart etc. how can a good person like you can be single?" It's this notion that if you are single there is something wrong with you. But I have met both men and women who are perfectly normal healthy individuals who just didn't have much experience in dating for whatever reason. And when you hear that type of thing over and over again, it can be difficult to not internalize and wonder wtf is wrong with you. Like I feel like people who lack experience sometimes can fall into the trap of assuming they have virgin branded across their forehead and then begin to define themselves as such because they develop this limiting belief even though in reality most people can't tell or straight up don't care that much. I can go into the parallels between getting sucked into toxic mindset from what I have observed, but I'll pause right here so people can take a moment to read and respond. Plus I have shit to do and I'm tired of typing.
  10. Fair enough. That is a very common media phenomenon. The loudest and the most obnoxious cases are the ones that get publicity and as a result there is this false sense of reality people can get into. But by no means do they represent an everyday scenario
  11. @mmKay Thank you so much for linking that video. I was just about to ask for some sources. I'll be sure to binge later on A lot of damage in society comes from a place of pain from the collective. While I can empathize with the pain, I cannot excuse the consequences. Reasons=/= Excuses. We are all broken in some shape or way but we don't all end up like this. I like on how you explained the red pill aspect of all of this because that is often what I see reflected in a lot of pick up language and concepts. That's why I get concern when I see things regarding pick up. I'm beginning to understand it a little more. But I would disagree with women creating the red pill cult. Red pill is a phenomenon that is very rooted in the patriarchy. The reason why a lot of men don't understand women and find dating difficult is because (this is probably scratching the surface tbh) Men aren't compelled to learn about social cues and emotional sensitivity as much as women: For women, we get taught this often to an extreme where we are told to take everyone else's emotional state to consideration but our own. Men are often compelled to repress emotions from society from a very young age: When people are cut off from their own emotions, often times we get cut off from other people's emotions and again out ability to empathize. Because of my upbringing, I do have experience in this. The female perspective isn't as vocal nor does it have much of a platform in society compared to the male perspective: We live in a man's world and often times we accept that as the norm rather than trying to understand anything else that can deviate from it. This part screams !!!! YIKES !!!! I have met charismatic guys who have good social skills resort to manipulative and sometimes very dangerous shit. I think there is this image in society that a man who rapes a woman is like this social awkward hermit lurking in an alley way. That is not the case by far. It could literally be anyone. The common denominator is a desire to exert power. You cannot blame women for this. It reeks of victim blaming and is part of men not wanting to take responsibility for their actions. I know in a later comment you said that you aren't blaming women, I would look into that thought a little more closely. You can't equate theft with rape. I can think of a good reason to steal things, or hell kill someone (like out of self defense for example) but I can't think of a good reason to rape someone regardless of gender. Another thing that I forgot to mention is that yes we all have a survival agenda when it comes to dating, but they are not all equal. Be very careful of false equivalencies. A guy feeling insecure about not being able to get laid and a woman being in fear for her life because disrespecting women is so normalized is not the same thing To an extent I agree with this. But I think it's important to define what I mean by empathize and accept. Just because you understand where someone is coming from doesn't mean that you are ok with it or you agree with it. Sometimes accepting something isn't about agreement rather it is about acknowledgement. For instance, in order to deal with the causes of violent crime, you can't demonize criminals and create a war against them, rather you have to empathize and understand the systems at play to create this behavior whether they are social or infrastructural. As for accepting and not agreeing, an example I can think of is the way left leaning people are more accepting towards America's racist past. While they don't like it and actively fight against the institutions it brought, they are willing to talk about it and not erase that history while conservatives want to repress it and see America as this happy land of the free to feed into their egos because it hurts them too much to recognize their own racist ideology because it conflicts with their image of America and therefore their identities. What I'm trying to say is that you can be vehemently against manipulation and enabling abusers and still come from empathy and acceptance. There is a huge, yet nuanced difference between acceptance= being ok with something while acceptance = acknowledging the situation at hand. I agree with you Preety because it is so easy to feel like you can accept this reality when you aren't on the receiving end of it when it comes to accepting in regards to being ok/ at peace with it. Women aren't more emotional because that's just how women are. Women are more emotional because a lot of things that are done to us exists in a much larger social context and somethings don't ping at men the same way it pings at us because men don't have the same type of collective trauma. Also I 100% agree with differentiating between pick up and conscious dating. Pick up can be a loaded term that lacks nuance. From what I understand, pick up can range from how to develop social skills so you aren't scared shitless around women all the way to red pill. To me there is too much of a range for everything to be lumped into one category. 100% agree with this. I know for me, learning how to flirt and be more open with guys has helped me develop as a person in numerous ways through many areas of life. I won't get into my story because I don't want to stray from the point but I can see the same being true with men. Along with the red pill stuff I do know that there are a lot of pick up people who ended up in jail because of rape and/ or sexual harassments. When I saw those things, I will say that I wasn't surprised considering the themes I have delved into in my original post.
  12. Yeah I saw that comment and I thought it was pretty insightful. And I agree with the proper male initiations thing as well. I think I remember seeing a vaush video where he talks about how now a days the proper way of being masculine is muddied by notions of the past that are possibly regressive and an unknown future that we are moving towards and how in order to have a healthy expression of masculinity, men also need to be comfortable with femininity. He also talked about different archetypes of masculinity and how the vast majority doesn't integrated the feminine. If I find that video I'll put it in this thread. Yeah those types of experiences can give a woman a different point of view when it comes to the themes in pick up more so than pick up itself. Like I said this scratches the surface. I have friends who have encountered much worse. From what I understand, pick up if it is done right and consciously, is going to look pretty natural and charismatic, not sketchy and manipulative like @RendHeaven mentioned. It can be a way of gaining confidence and increasing one's social skills. As for the thicker skin comment, women have been taught to suck it up and brush this stuff off as "boys will be boys" and often times we are blamed for these situations instead of holding men accountable. I know we have a long way to go and this type of thing will stick around for god knows how long. Pretty sure my grandkids would have to deal with this. It seems like trauma to yall, and it is don't get me wrong, but a lot of this has also been normalized as part of the female experience, which I think is dangerous. I think that phrase is a good way of describing self bias and self agenda. To a woman, it's more about the themes that it draws parallel to (predator vs prey, being dominated in a social setting, manipulation etc.). Again, I'm not trying to disagree, I'm just trying to explain our perception is coming from and what is shaping it. I guess the other thing with women is that the decent guys don't approach as often and it usually the loudest, most obnoxious individuals that end up getting the attention so we get this false sense of scarcity. Because if a guy never approaches me, I'm never going to know if it's because he is anxious or simply not interested. Instead it's the bold ones usually the creeps or fuck boys that approach and sometimes they do it in cringy or low conscious ways. I have tried to raise the point of leading with empathy instead of blatant sexual intent in other threads numerous times. You can be empathetic and direct when approaching a girl and not be overtly sexual to where she gets uncomfortable. She will still get the message that you are interested in her. A lot of the times when I say this, I get told by guys "oh you're just saying that because you're self biased, this is how guys get friendzoned." Because of that, sometimes I get this image of pick up being devoid of empathy. But if what you are saying about pick up being about social awareness, I'm for it even if in the intial stages of learning social skills is a little awkward. I'm willing to look into this subject tbh. I mean you won't really know if it's selfish intent or empathy until you spend some time getting to know a guy. But when it comes to approaching, often times women can get a general impression. I guess what I mean by my examples is blatantly selfish and lacking social tact, so maybe that's where the miscommunication lies. Telling a woman you think she is attractive is much more empathetic than catcalling her for example. That's what I was talking about.
  13. It isn't me but my dad was a mess in every possible way in his 20s and didn't get his shit together financially or emotionally until his 30s. Sometimes I freak about what you're talking about @dflores321 and my dad usually consoles me by telling me how he was much worse when he was my age and how he still ended up fine. It also depends on what you define as success honestly.
  14. @Superfluo I mean I don't feel a lot of intensity towards the situation. Tbh this is more so me looking at the way I reacted and being like "hmm that was a weird way to act should I be concerned?"