New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

37 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Maybe, but it's not like they were very fond of the Israelis before this.

The reality is that Hamas put Israel in an impossible position. Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't massacre ~1200 Israelis, kidnap 200 and then turn the other cheek. The Middle East is no picnic. A sign of weakness like this will invite many more attacks. You can say what you will about the 2006 Lebanon war, but it has kept Hezbollah and the IDF out of a major conflict for almost 2 decades. The Lebanese do not want to deal with another 2006. It is a deterrent, whether you like it or not.

So now that Israel has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the removal of Hamas. Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

Same logic applied to dating would be for a incel to say its not like women were fond of him so might as well become misogynist which will only make them hate him further.

The reality is that Israel put the Palestinian people in an impossible position.  Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't turn the other cheek at decades of oppression and abuse by the Israeli regime, till you no longer have a cheek. The Middle East is no picnic - exactly why they will not stop resisting occupation and settlement expansion as to not invite more of it. This further is fueled by Islam, which is peaceful for the most part but isn't a pacifist religion either. Likewise, Israel do not want to deal with Hezbollah after failing to defeat them.

So now that Hamas has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the resistance of occupation.Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

 

Step 1: Destroy nations and displace tens of millions of people.

Step 2: Wait for some of those people to hate you and want to fight back.

Step 3: Use their desire to fight back as justification to repeat Step 1.

Edited November 17, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

Israel created the barbaric violence of October 7th, in the same way it created the violence that will with absolute certainty come its way in retaliation for its actions in Gaza today. The official narrative makers always try to restart history at the moment of the last act of violence from Palestinians, because it is only by framing such violence as unprovoked that they can legitimize the idea that it’s possible to bomb a population into submission and obedience.

But of course, it is not possible to bomb a population into submission and obedience. Every atrocity you inflict upon them will only increase their desire for revenge — a desire Israelis should sympathize with since it has consumed them and turned them into crazed genocide cheerleaders since October 7. But their desire for vengeance is only made possible by the false mainstream narrative that the attack came from nowhere, completely unprovoked.

The actual crime that Palestinians are being punished for is refusal to submit. That’s all this conflict has ever been, from the very beginning. Palestinians refused to accept being thrown off their land and killed and forcibly displaced at the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, and that refusal has seen them hammered with tremendous amounts of violence and oppression from year to year and from decade to decade under the premise that it’s possible to bomb and tyrannize a population into obedience.

Nothing will radicalize you toward violence faster than seeing your neighbors and loved ones ripped apart by military explosives supplied by a globe-spanning empire. Nothing will ensure further violent resistance more certainly than murdering Palestinian children by the thousands in plain view of everyone. Which means that nothing but restitution, reparations and return of land to the Palestinians will end this nightmare once and for all.

 - Caitlin Johnstone

 

Did you know that since the United States brought its “war on terror” to Africa, terrorist attacks on that continent have increased by 75,000 percent? That’s right: 75, then three zeros, percent. I learned this neat little stat from a new article by journalist Nick Turse, who also notes that “according to the Pentagon, terrorist attacks in the Sahel region alone have resulted in 9,818 deaths — a 42,500% increase.”

People have been documenting the way attempts to bomb terrorism out of existence actually creates more terrorism for many years. In 2010 Professor Robert A Pape wrote an article for Foreign Policy titled “It’s the Occupation, Stupid” about his study with University of Chicago which found that suicide bombings are the result not of Islamic fundamentalism but of foreign military occupations.

Some notable excerpts:

“More than 95 percent of all suicide attacks are in response to foreign occupation.”

“As the United States has occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, which have a combined population of about 60 million, total suicide attacks worldwide have risen dramatically — from about 300 from 1980 to 2003, to 1,800 from 2004 to 2009.”

“Over 90 percent of suicide attacks worldwide are now anti-American.”

“Each month, there are more suicide terrorists trying to kill Americans and their allies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other Muslim countries than in all the years before 2001 combined. From 1980 to 2003, there were 343 suicide attacks around the world, and at most 10 percent were anti-American inspired. Since 2004, there have been more than 2,000, over 91 percent against U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries.”

Edited November 17, 2023 by zazen

[PurpleTree]

22 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel created the barbaric violence of October 7th

🙄 

[Nivsch]

30 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

🙄 

And also created world war 2 because the future affects the past with all the quantum mechanics and all that so this is Israel's fault.

[Vrubel]

@Nabd Damn interesting vision. I hope much of it will be fulfilled. Sadly the harsh reality is different. I think the civil war in Syria was so brutal many Syrians are just relieved that some sense of stability has returned even though the overall political situation seems lost. 

[Lila9]

The last videos of hostages Hamas released, show that the hostages were alive when Hamas took them and Hamas executed them in the captivity. They literally show a person alive in a video and then its dead body.

This is so sick and brutal.

And people literally justify this cruelty and see this as legitimate "resistance".

 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The last videos of hostages Hamas released, show that the hostages were alive when Hamas took them and Hamas executed them in the captivity. They literally show a person alive in a video and then its dead body.

This is so sick and brutal.

And people literally justify this cruelty and see this as legitimate "resistance".

👍The devil also do resistance when combating the angle. So did hitler. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

51 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

🙄 

 

You end Hamas by ending their cause. Cut them off from their cause that is a resistance to a structure of oppression and occupation with factions of Islamist and political power hungry opportunists jumping on for the ride.

 

Hamas use the resistance movement the same way bankers use social sentiments of environmental and social causes to drive the ESG movement which perpetuate their power and profits.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

You end Hamas by ending their cause. Cut them off from their cause that is a resistance to a structure of oppression and occupation with factions of Islamist and political power hungry opportunists jumping on for the ride.

 

Hamas use the resistance movement the same way bankers use social sentiments of environmental and social causes to drive the ESG movement which perpetuate their power and profits.

and how do you end islamists?

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Same logic applied to dating would be for a incel to say its not like women were fond of him so might as well become misogynist which will only make them hate him further.

Silly analogy I'm not even going to bother responding to. Do better.

Quote

The reality is that Israel put the Palestinian people in an impossible position.  Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't turn the other cheek at decades of oppression and abuse by the Israeli regime, till you no longer have a cheek. The Middle East is no picnic - exactly why they will not stop resisting occupation and settlement expansion as to not invite more of it. This further is fueled by Islam, which is peaceful for the most part but isn't a pacifist religion either. Likewise, Israel do not want to deal with Hezbollah after failing to defeat them.

So now that Hamas has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the resistance of occupation.Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

Ok, and what point did you make? By flipping the script you haven't disputed anything I've said. I actually agree with your reframing of what I wrote. Of course Hamas is inevitably going to do Hamas things, which is inevitably why they will be destroyed. 

The only realistic range of different possibilities would be where Israel values it's own casualties vs. Palestinians. Hamas is always going to attack, and Israel is always going to retaliate, to what degree is where the meaningful discussion is had. 

Quote

Step 1: Destroy nations and displace tens of millions of people.

Step 2: Wait for some of those people to hate you and want to fight back.

Step 3: Use their desire to fight back as justification to repeat Step 1.

If you want the most cynical interpretation of events, there it is. There are certainly some in the Israeli administration who agree with it. Certainly not all, there's a lot of disagreement and divergence of opinion among Israelis. Personally, I don't think there is an official plan. Right now Israel is reacting, and no one really knows where exactly this is going. 

Like most conspiracy theories, there's too many players with different agendas to really make them happen so simplistically. 

[hundreth]

I'd also like to add that there are some key differences between Hamas' actions and the current IDF campaign:

For one, prior to Hamas' attack there were actually attempts to improve relations with Gaza by increasing work permits, etc. There was a break in the conflict. For this one moment in time, the Gazans were relatively unprovoked. Israel responded directly to a serious escalation. 

Two, Hamas' actions had no tangible goal. Intentions matter. What was Hamas hoping to change? Nothing. They literally achieved nothing except for murder.

The IDF has a direct goal, eliminate Hamas. Something will change, even if you don't agree with the strategy or outcome. Again, intentions matter. If a ceasefire happens, and Hamas remains in power in Gaza, I will concede the operation was a failure and unwarranted. 

[Hsinav]

20 hours ago, Raze said:

 

Low numbers of HAMAS fighters eliminated according to HAMAS.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hsinav

[hundreth]

37 minutes ago, Hsinav said:

Low numbers of HAMAS fighters eliminated according to HAMAS.

Being a Hamas member is a fluid concept. I doubt there's an official all encompassing roster of Hamas enlistees. You're Hamas when you pick up weapons and engage in combat with the IDF. Then you're not Hamas when you take the vest off. 

The focus is on Hamas infrastructure more than combatants. The only thing they can do is cut off Hamas' command networks, tunnels and stockpiles. Like many here have mentioned, you can't militarily defeat a state of mind. You can only temporarily disable their capabilities. 

Hopefully during this power vacuum, there is space for something more positive to emerge. 

[Thought Art]

I sense this is a highly complicated problem where there is no easy solution. It’s painful and confusing. I am not picking a side. But, looking to understand the perspectives of all actors. 
 

I live next to a common protest area. I can hear “free Palestine” chants. 
 

I want to understand. 
 

There is so much noise it’s hard to know what’s accurate. I don’t deeply understand this conflicts history. I don’t know the reality of destroying Hamas, which is the one thing I can understand doing after what they did to Israel. 
 

I think killing innocent civilians is wrong. 
 

I am biased towards peace and harmony. But, I realize war is a natural part of reality and a necessity. 
 

I really don’t know much about this so… please understand that I am learning.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Thought Art

[PurpleTree]

21 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

 

 But, I realize war is a natural part of reality and a necessity. 
 

Is it? I mean in western europe we haven’t had war for like 75 years and nobody’s missing it

[randmonzzin]

here's The Video in Arabic ( English Subtitles available) that will enlighten you about Israeli/Palestine conflict. 

For once in your life, don't pick sides. Be a fairly judge. 

 

[Buck Edwards]

War is INSANE. and insanity is only possible with a lot of backing and support. Nobody acts insane when they feel powerless. This is human nature. 

But everyone acts insane when your batteries are powered up. 

It's easy to see that Israel thinks it's massively powerful. 

Either it's powerful or it's assumed that nobody can do anything to stop war from happening, reminiscent of the Wild West. 

Either we live in the Wild West now or there's a global conspiracy to create a chain of powerful countries. Something is up. But it's not good. This is definitely not a good indicator and I'm expecting something very surprising and radical in the next 2-3 years. Something that will shake the world up. 

[Thought Art]

@PurpleTree Does that mean it’s not natural? Hasn’t there been war there in the past? Over the past 75 years hasn’t the world as a whole had wars in its various parts? Does natural mean pleasant? Is stinging ivy not natural because I having not been stung in 75 years and I’m not missing it?

How do you think Western Europe was formed as it was those 75 years if not through war, conflict and its resolution? World War 2?

You could say it’s not necessary because well, much of the world isn’t at war. But, at the same time the whole world deals with conflicts allllllll the time. Basically what survival is.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Thought Art

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I sense this is a highly complicated problem where there is no easy solution. It’s painful and confusing. I am not picking a side. But, looking to understand the perspectives of all actors. 
 

I live next to a common protest area. I can hear “free Palestine” chants. 
 

I want to understand. 
 

There is so much noise it’s hard to know what’s accurate. I don’t deeply understand this conflicts history. I don’t know the reality of destroying Hamas, which is the one thing I can understand doing after what they did to Israel. 
 

I think killing innocent civilians is wrong. 
 

I am biased towards peace and harmony. But, I realize war is a natural part of reality and a necessity. 
 

I really don’t know much about this so… please understand that I am learning.

Its not that hard to understand and the solution is quite simple

Think of the Palestinians as human beings. Are you a human being? Yes? Ok so here's the solution

Treat others how you want to be treated.

Do you want someone stealing your home? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

Do you want someone blowing up your 4 generations of your entire family to bits in a matter of seconds? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

Do you want someone locking you into an open air prison for decades controlling your food water electricity and having checkpoints at every turn? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

Do you want someone abusing you for 75 years and any time you lash back they punish you even harder giving you no choice but to keep lashing back? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

The only reason this is difficult to find a solution is because people see Palestinians as less than human. So it's not easy to find a solution or understand why Palestinians do what they do. They do it because they are human just like you 

You all would probably behave much worse in the same position as them. Almost everyone on this forum is a low IQ retard except Leo. And Leo is too enlightened for his own good when it comes to this. Plus he has been into geopolitics the past 18 months it seems from looking at his blog. I think he is new to this conflict and he's gonna do what everyone else does. He's gonna realize how hard it is and just give up completely and shrug his shoulders and say well I hope they figure it out and just move onto the next thing. His love for humanity wont be equal to his love for Palestine because the inhumane propaganda is too strong against Palestine. I have seen it a million times. If everyone on this forum is retarded which y'all are then there is no hope for the world because y'all should be a shining example for society hahaha

The craziest thing and this is how I know the world is full of idiots is that this literally already happened. Hitler killed a bunch of Jews because he saw them as less than human and an obstacle. Then Europes solution was giving them full human rights. So why isn't the solution for Jews killing Palestinians giving them full human rights?

Edited November 18, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I sense this is a highly complicated problem where there is no easy solution. It’s painful and confusing. I am not picking a side. But, looking to understand the perspectives of all actors. 

Is it enlightened to not pick a side or something?

Imagine someone saying about Hitler destroying the Jews "I wont pick a side"