New War In Israel / Gaza

[Jodistrict]

One thing I have learned from the tons of social media posts on this subject here and elsewhere is the dedication to self interest and the willingness of either side to justify violence in order to preserve an image of righteousness.   With this background, a man of true morality and consistent principles like Norman Finkelstein sticks out like a sore thumb and is very, very rare. 

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 

 

B e a u t i f u l .

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Lila9

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

 

B e a u t i f u l .

 

 

❤🙏🥰🥲

[Nivsch]

On 18.11.2023 at 3:03 PM, DawnC said:

 In the better case. In the worst case, it is deliberately lying and deceiving.

And now a mother who her daugther is kidnapped in gaza tell she was interviewed by Al Jazeera and they were attacking her for 55 minutes (!) in the interview and even did to her an "ambush" when joined a hamas commander to the interview who demanded her to condemn Israel what made her quit the interview. Its unbelievable how heartless and shameless they are.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Then, it is Israel who is evil for fighting back. Is a woman evil for fighting back against her rapist?

A woman is not evil for fighting back against her rapist. However, if the woman s behavior's towards the rapist are the main reason that the person became the rapist in the first place then she is also to be blamed. The people killed per say are innocent and I feel bad for them but Israel s policies are the main reason why those people are dead. Israel is just as at fault here as Hamas is. And they do not accept any responsibility for this. They just blame Hamas when they are responsible for Hamas existing in the first place. They got attacked by the monster they themselves created. This is not to be overlooked. 

When the head of UN says that the attack of Hamas did not happen in a vacuum, instead of accepting their responsability and changing their policies towards Palestinians, they instead ban UN staff from entering and double down on the violence on the West Bank by killing like 150 innocent civilians. 

Shameless...

Edited November 19, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Let me guess that Israel is also to blame in Amin al Husseini nazi-like ideology towards the jews in 1930's even before it was established! Mind blowing.

The less developed side has far more fault. Israel's responsibility to the redicalization of the pelstinians exists, but it is only a secondary effect that couldnt happen without the palestinians initial tendency to easily radicalize in certain ways in the first place.

The Arabs here were quite radical against the Jews and the idea of a Jewish state (a fraction of them of course) way before 67' and 48'.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

 

[ricachica]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:55 AM, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said:

(deleted by mod)

So no one else wants to report this comment as radical hate speech? lol

Edited November 20, 2023 by UnbornTao

[zazen]

People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values. 

It's possible for people to have stage green talking points and positions whilst having a stage red tribalistic mode of being and disposition. Humans are complex.

 

 

 

[Twentyfirst]

15 minutes ago, zazen said:

People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values. 

It's possible for people to have stage green talking points and positions whilst having a stage red tribalistic mode of being and disposition. Humans are complex.

 

 

 

Lots of virtue signaling around. And that includes being too enlightened to get emotional or take sides. Who said you aren't enlightened or developed if you want a side to win and you justify what they are doing? Who's making the rules? 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

couldnt happen without the palestinians initial tendency to easily radicalize in certain ways in the first place.

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

When Jews had an uprising against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto nobody was saying "those evil terrorists".

I think you fundamentally underestimate how ruthless and oppresive Israel is to Palestinians. 

Do a bit of research.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Karmadhi

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

Not necessarily 

tibetans for example didn’t become radical/violent 

who knows maybe they should have though

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

When Jews had an uprising against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto nobody was saying "those evil terrorists".

I think you fundamentally underestimate how ruthless and oppresive Israel is to Palestinians. 

Do a bit of research.

 

They literally picked the most resilient people to try to screw over

They have been trying for 75 years and the Palestinians are nowhere near giving up. They still do daily prayers and are as happy as they can be given the conditions and are hospitable to visitors. They have kept a lot of their humanity to the world even though the international community doesn't do much for them because of politics but they do hate Jews so they have little humanity towards them

The whole world could be deceived but Palestinians will always know the truth so they will always be resilient no matter what so it doesn't really matter what the world thinks or doesn't think. What I am saying is the propaganda can never work on the Palestinians so all this taking land in doses and then playing victim doesn't work which is why they should have stuck with the 67 borders but now its a free for all and they could lose everything including their lives but still they play victim and complain 

Their children are bred from a very young age to never fear a Jew no matter the weaponry and it works. They don't fear

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Not necessarily 

tibetans for example didn’t become radical/violent 

who knows maybe they should have though

Didn't like 90% of their entire culture get wiped out and permanently lost? Thats a gift that could have been shared with the world 

[Twentyfirst]

I heard someone on a YouTube video today say that Arabic doesn't have the letter P in it so that means that Palestine could have never actually existed and thats why the Jews belong there. Not knowing that it's actually pronounced Falastin. I mean this is the level of retardation that needs to be dealt with 

[PurpleTree]

14 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Didn't like 90% of their entire culture get wiped out and permanently lost? Thats a gift that could have been shared with the world 

Yea probably 

theres quite a community of tibetan refugees in my country

they’re some of the most peaceful people imo

[Karmadhi]

I am curious if Hamas teleported in Tel Aviv and was holding every school, hospital etc in Tel Aviv would Israel be ok to raze Tel Aviv to the ground and kill 13.000 Israeli civilians if it means taking out Hamas.

You can tell they value Israeli babes far more than Palestinian babies.

I do not expect equality but at least some sort of care.

[Twentyfirst]

26 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea probably 

theres quite a community of tibetan refugees in my country

they’re some of the most peaceful people imo

But would they still be peaceful if millions of them were trapped in the most dense urban area in the world deprived of human rights for decades

Edited November 19, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[zazen]

 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

When Jews had an uprising against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto nobody was saying "those evil terrorists".

I think you fundamentally underestimate how ruthless and oppresive Israel is to Palestinians. 

Do a bit of research.

 

Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity - Dune

Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder.

Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more.

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

Lots of virtue signaling around. And that includes being too enlightened to get emotional or take sides. Who said you aren't enlightened or developed if you want a side to win and you justify what they are doing? Who's making the rules? 

True, I get it if people are just too busy or don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a judgment but don't think it takes such extensive study either. 

The enlightened types like to be detached from the disputes and dichotomies of the common man,  looking down at it all from a lofty place of transcendence. As Ram Dass said, part of awakening can be playing the role of form we are in - that is human. To be human, we've got to get down in the muck where the humanness is happening.

Moral relativity is about understanding both sides but moral legitimacy is about determining the rightness of each side. Pluralism doesn't always mean neutralism.

It's possible to see both sides of every contentious issue - that's a sign of intellectual maturity.  But just because we can see both sides doesn’t mean we should live our life as though they both have equal merit. We have to further grapple with the rightness of each side or else we'd be neglecting a whole dimension of understanding if we just left it too “well I can see both sides which means both are equally right”.

It’s good to understand that all concepts are relative and that none contain absolute truth, but this necessarily means that some concepts are more relatively truthful than others and by extension some actions are more relatively right than others.

None of us live our lives as though all things are the same and all concepts are equally true - men can't have babies for example. We don’t drink bleach to wake us up, we order a coffee. When we want to go to somewhere we take a specific route, we don’t walk in a random direction and hope for manifestation to do its magic. Our daily choices reflect our reliance on relative truths as a fundamental aspect of our everyday life.

We should be able to apply it to this conflict also. I can understand why a robber had to rob to feed his family but I can still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Hamas did what they did and still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Israel feels entitled to the land of Palestine and still claim it not to be right.

Understanding and analysis of a situation does not mean justification and approval of it.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by zazen

[Twentyfirst]

Theres something that gives away this ENTIRE conflict. Follow me here its quite simple really

Ask an Israeli if they want peace. They will say yes

Then ask them why things went wrong and why its a terrible situation that cant be solved. They will blame Palestinians

Then ask them if they had a chance to go back in time and choose a different land without indigenous people now that they know the horrible results in the Middle East (and how violent the Palestinians are for ruining their side of the bargain). They will say no

Ask them why wouldn't they change the initial decision for a more peaceful land. They will say because a prophecy told them to take that land and because they had to go through the holocaust

Tell them that means if they go back in time and choose the same thing then that means they are also choosing the current violence and suffering thats occurring (everything thats happened in the last 75 years including today and whatever happens tomorrow). Tell them that it would solve nothing. They will say okay it's fine 

So you can say that they came to the lands thinking there would be peace and maybe thats true. But now that we all know there isn't peace and won't be peace they still wouldn't retract their decision because for them it's not about peace....it's about conquering

Go ahead and go through the experiment by asking Israelis outside this forum. Ask 10 of them and see what happens and how accurate my assessment is 

And if they say yes I would go back in time and change the decision. Tell them to leave now. They won't

If you can't understand this well the eyes are useless when the mind is blind 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Twentyfirst