Soonhei (Member of this community) killed himself to experience Conscious Death. :-(

[SpiritualAwakening]

11 minutes ago, sda said:

@Preety_India In your opinion, do you think that his suicide was a correct act or a mistake?

In the relative sense it's never correct, don't ask that question to someone who's suicidal.

[captainamerica]

"I think to call suicide a cowardly act is to severely downplay the illness of the one who left this world. Their pain must have been so great, their despair so colossal, their path so dark that the only way out they saw was to end their own life."

Hope his family and friends find strength in these dark times. 

[Preety_India]

Neither is suicide a cowardly act nor a selfish one.

And it is not some romantic fantasy either 

It's just hard and cold.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Preety_India

[charlie cho]

@jimwell before opening my mouth? That's the most arrogant thing I've ever heard of from a person. 

need I explain to an arrogant person? No, but I will try.

Are you really going to take someone seriously when they say they will kill them-self for "experience conscious death"? 

I have specifically said, if that was the reason, one must not encourage this and be critical of such stupidity. 

1 hour ago, charlie cho said:

One wishes it would have been different. Yes, one can feel the suffering of the deceased one. However, do not encourage the behavior of being unloving towards himself and others. In my assessment of the man, he hasn't been so compassionate to himself or the world. Whether the reason was to kill himself for his spiritual quest or to just end his suffering I don't know. If it was the former, I have no words but "tough luck", but if it was the latter, I will have to say, "I wish I could have done better for you even if I never knew you."

this is what I have said. If it was out of suffering, I have compassion. But if it was for "spiritual pursuit". I will still have compassion, but he must have been an idiot. It's an undeniable fact. And people blaming actualized.org for that must be an idiot too. And we need not feel bad for a person who kills himself "for a spiritual awakening". 

I'm more embarrassed that I have replied to your post really than I have replied to all others. Read before you speak, is my reply jimwell, and take the pluck out of your eyes before you judge another. I don't know why I write this to you. 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by charlie cho

[Blackhawk]

Holy fuck.

He never showed any signs whatsoever of depression or sadness. He was one of my favorites here. I agreed with him more than I do with most other people here.

I'm glad for him.

But I'm not glad for those who he left behind.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Blackhawk

[charlie cho]

Anyways, anyone blaming Actualized.org for his death must be absurd. I already can feel the energy of this forum people trying to pull that shit off saying it is somewhat Leo's responsibility. Compassion to the man who is deceased but I don't condone any of his actions and it is an undeniable fact that suicide is not necessarily the wisest choice, and that is a fact! But at the same time, out of anyone here, I am of the opinion, it is completely one's choice to commit such acts and no one should or should not tell him what to do and control him, indefinitely! I still, will tell him and others, do not feel bad or be angry just because someone has trodden the road of his own, in which in this case, suicide. I don't blame him for committing suicide. I will help him get there and be with him in that lonely road. Any of you blaming others for his suicide and encouraging him and saying his choice is something to be completely accepted and never to be challenged upon is tredding on a path of nihilism: I can be sure.

To tell another person one should be indefinitely be in agreement to one's path is the most arrogant thing and this sort of force over power only breeds more nihilism and hatred. This sort of attitude only demonstrates how much you don't accept other's going on their own path, and you just want everyone to agree with your own. This includes our friend who has just died! I can already feel the energy gliding towards this path, and it is dangerous. A real person who supports our friend's path will right away be honest and truthful to him in the most friendly way. Only a person who does not support the deceased person's path will lie and pretend like what he has done was a very wise choice both for himself and others! I'll give you this simple rule for those who think I'm an asshole, don't lie or pretend to the person you love dearly! And do not force others to lie or pretend just to show an appearance of support! That is not truly supporting the journey the other is going through! If you truly want to support wherever the other person is trying to go to, never pretend or lie to them. 

Do not force the other person to agree with you. That is nihilism and bondage. Do not force people to think like you. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by charlie cho

[Gili Trawangan]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I understand some of you feel that way, but I am not here to be who you think I should be.

I see that many of you are into this idea and are frustrated that I don't indulge your ideas of how an ideal guru is supposed to behave. But at some point you will understand that consciousness and love can be expressed in many different ways, not just as a bleeding heart.

To me, mind IS heart.

But I know what you mean and I understand why you want it. But from my POV what you want of me would not be true to who I authentically am. The more conscious I become the more authentic I act, but the more it turns some of you off because it does not fit your image of some happy go lucky blissed out feminine guru who personally loves you.

I don't personally love you. I love you in a deeply metaphysical way which you probably do not feel or understand. And I am not going to try to fake a personal love for you to fit some stereotype of the ideal guru.

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

People don’t necessarily want you to change, Leo. You are accepted and valued as you are. But, at the same time, what people are picking up on is the energetic level from which your teachings are coming. The last video for me was an obvious example. There’s an emphasis given on being right, on the idea being somehow absolutely true, instead of a more nuanced appreciation of what that message is going to convey and how it will be received. In fact, there’s this notion that the message will NOT EVEN be received, because “there are no others”. This is what people are criticizing. Now, let me be clear, what happened to SoonHei was absolutely nobody’s fault. He seemed to be an independent thinker and was most certainly not a fanboy who decided on a whim to do this. I tend to agree with you that he made his choice and nothing would have prevented it.

However, and to put this in language that everyone here will know very well, Leo’s center of gravity is still Stage Yellow. You have not yet embodied Stage Turquoise (and hey, neither have I, obviously not judging); hence this notion that mind is the same as heart. It is and it isn’t. You’ve had profound glimpses/realizations, but you don’t live from that place, which is why you don’t act with the kind of energy that we ‘get’ from those old gurus/sages. Well, obviously you don’t, you’re a young guy with much to learn and embody. I would guess that 10/20 years from now you will look back on some of this with a different perspective.

Actualized.org is an incredibly valuable place for people who are Stage Orange/Green and it can help them on their way to Tier 2. As far as the more advanced stuff goes, I think there is much to be improved on the delivery, the ideas themselves, and of course, the energy from which they spring. A more loving energy, more in line with what the fabric of reality really is.

This is just an opinion, my 2 cents, just trying to be constructive.

My condolences to SoonHei’s family, he was lovely. Again, he will be missed.

[Leo Gura]

@charlie cho Warning: Tread lightly here.

17 minutes ago, Gili Trawangan said:

People don’t necessarily want you to change, Leo. You are accepted and valued as you are. But, at the same time, what people are picking up on is the energetic level from which your teachings are coming. The last video for me was an obvious example. There’s an emphasis given on being right, on the idea being somehow absolutely true, instead of a more nuanced appreciation of what that message is going to convey and how it will be received. In fact, there’s this notion that the message will NOT EVEN be received, because “there are no others”. This is what people are criticizing. Now, let me be clear, what happened to SoonHei was absolutely nobody’s fault. He seemed to be an independent thinker and was most certainly not a fanboy who decided on a whim to do this. I tend to agree with you that he made his choice and nothing would have prevented it.

However, and to put this in language that everyone here will know very well, Leo’s center of gravity is still Stage Yellow. You have not yet embodied Stage Turquoise (and hey, neither have I, obviously not judging); hence this notion that mind is the same as heart. It is and it isn’t. You’ve had profound glimpses/realizations, but you don’t live from that place, which is why you don’t act with the kind of energy that we ‘get’ from those old gurus/sages.

A) I told you that that last video was the most advanced communication I ever made. Things were spoken there that few teachers understand. It is very radical. You are still not appreciating that the things I spoke about in that video are not what you learn from other teachers. There is a tendency to dismiss what I said as, "Oh, Leo is just acting like he's better than others, that's just him acting out, nothing to see here." If that is your attitude, then you did not understand the communication. "There are no others" is an advanced truth you still do not have an understanding of. Like really! You don't get it. You don't get how radical it is. No guru will be there to hold your hand the day you get it. It will send you into an existential spiral despair and horror. Then maybe you will understand.

B) I certainly have much spiritual work left to do. I shoot the video as I am, at whatever development level I am at. I cannot do otherwise. And I have never made any promises or guarantees to you about my embodiment or energy or stage or whatever other standards you evaluate me on. In the end, I'm just a guy sharing his ideas with you. I am not your guru, we have no formal relationship. I'm a YT philosopher. I am on a spiritual journey and I share my insights. That's what Actualized.org is. So set your expectations appropriately. Remember, when I started Actualized.org I was a self-help life coach. Today I am where I am. And who knows where I will be in 5 or 10 years. I make no pretenses about my embodiment or the like. I share my realizations and insights as they come to me. I am also not infallible and not immune to self-deception, as I have stressed many times in the past. So you should think for yourself and verify everything in your direct experience.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, kieranperez said:

That said man, it might be wise to create some safe guards.

Safeguards had already been in place, and more will be put in place.

I fully agree with having safeguards.

For example, I recorded a video about the dangers of psychedelics last week specifically as a safeguard against abuse. It's in the publishing queue, although now it will have to be delayed.

I have no passion to share ideas with people that will cause harm. The point here is improve one's life.

[charlie cho]

It's definitely advisable to write a compassionate note to Soon Hei. 

But using that compassion to attack a person. That is what has already happened here, and I do not like it. I do not think that is really compassion to Soon Hei nor the person who does such things. Just be loving to Soon Hei and be cool about it. 

And on that note, I send my regards to Soon Hei. I don't know why exactly he did it. I am hoping that it wasn't just because he wanted to advance his spirituality with this pursuit.Either way, I hope he truly finds the thing he is looking for even after what has been already been done. Maybe his next life? Idk. I just hope that the energy he has carried until his death has carried over to his afterlife. I hope... Good luck 

Edited May 20, 2021 by charlie cho

[Gili Trawangan]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@charlie cho Warning: Tread lightly here.

A) I told you that that last video was the most advanced communication I ever made. Things were spoken there that few teachers understand. It is very radical. You are still not appreciating that the things I spoke about in that video are not what you learn from other teachers. There is a tendency to dismiss what I said as, "Oh, Leo is just acting like he's better than others, that's just him acting out, nothing to see here." If that is your attitude, then you did not understand the communication. "There are no others" is an advanced truth you still do not have an understanding of. Like really! You don't get it. You don't get how radical it is. No guru will be there to hold your hand the day you get it. It will send you into an existential spiral despair and horror. Then maybe you will understand.

B) I certainly have much spiritual work left to do. I shoot the video as I am, at whatever development level I am at. I cannot do otherwise. And I have never made any promises or guarantees to you about my embodiment or energy or stage or whatever other standards you evaluate me on. In the end, I'm just a guy sharing his ideas with you. I am not your guru, we have no formal relationship. I'm a YT philosopher. I am on a spiritual journey and I share my insights. That's what Actualized.org is. So set your expectations appropriately. Remember, when I started Actualized.org I was a self-help life coach. Today I am where I am. And who knows where I will be in 5 or 10 years. I make no pretenses about my embodiment or the like. I share my realizations and insights as they come to me. I am also not infallible and not immune to self-deception, as I have stressed many times in the past. So you should think for yourself and verify everything in your direct experience.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

@Leo Gura Totally agree with B. Like I said, I'm not judging you, nor am I saying you've done anything wrong. I'm just saying that you will continue to grow, so we are in total agreement. I understand that it's not an easy position to be in, your entire spiritual path is on the internet, this can't be easy to deal with. My heart goes out to you, I certainly would have trouble handling it if I were in your shoes (well, I am, aren't I?).

As for A, I've had that awakening. I do understand. I just don't think it should be communicated in that fashion. I had a dissonant experience as I was watching the video. On the one hand, I was seeing the truth in the concepts (as verified by direct experience). On the other hand, I couldn't help but feel that it deserved a deeper more loving way of communicating it. That's all I'm saying. Again, it's not an attack. Everything is Perfection, including your videos and our so-called arguments and discussions here.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Gili Trawangan said:

As for A, I've had that awakening. I do understand. I just don't think it should be communicated in that fashion. I had a dissonant experience as I was watching the video. On the one hand, I was seeing the truth in the concepts (as verified by direct experience). On the other hand, I couldn't help but feel that it deserved a deeper more loving way of communicating it. That's all I'm saying. Again, it's not an attack. Everything is Perfection, including your videos and our so-called arguments and discussions here.

A video on the much misunderstood notion of solipsism has been planned for a long time. I am taking my time with it because it requires a lot of thought.

[Mafortu]

 

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

Holy fuck.

He never showed any signs whatsoever of depression or sadness. He was one of my favorites here. I agreed with him more than I do with most other people here.

I'm glad for him.

But I'm not glad for those who he left behind.

When a person has suffered depression for so long, the common visible traits meld into their personas to the point where they are practically invisible even to family members.

I used to cry a lot as a kid, but now crying is a luxury I covet, the pain is still there, I have only been desensitized to it.

[Leo Gura]

He didn't need to have depression or even suffering to do what he did. He may simply have wanted to transcend material reality. Of course that's very rare, but this seems like one of those extra rare situations. Which is what makes it difficult to preempt such things. Out of a million people, one guy might think jumping off a bridge is a good idea to get closer to God.

In a certain sense, the only thing that keeps you alive in the material world is fear. Fear of what would happen if you quit survival. But of course if you quit survival you will not survive! And SoonHei's messages clearly show he understood that, but just didn't care.

Fear of death is precisely what keeps you alive. If you lose your preference of life over death, there is literally nothing stopping you from dying. Even someone who is let's say full enlightened, still must have a preference for life over death, otherwise they would not be around to talk to you. Those people who completely lose their preference for material life will simply disappear from material life. That's how life works. If you don't want it, you lose it. Because life and survival are very active processes. You gotta keep working on survival every day to stay alive. Even if you are woke as fuck. Chop wood, carry water, do laundry.

[Ryan R]

The fact of the matter is that the contemplation of suicide simply goes with the territory of spiritual development. It is a challenge that most every serious seeker must wrestle with and transcend, and some will face it long-term and/or repeatedly; and some will fail to win Freedom without falling bodily by their own hand. This is the case in all awakening work in every tradition and type of teaching. Absolute Life is what we aspire to and to become One with it we must face relative death. To well understand that this is Not a Call or a Cause to Commit Suicide even in the darkest night of the soul when it is very tempting is why a strong disciplined mind must be developed before undertaking hard-core spiritual practices of any sort, including with psychedelics.

It is important that everyone here recognize that the path to enlightenment is both beautifully light and dark. It is strewn with the dead in traps that can bind and snare and kill you too both metaphorically and literally. Learn well the lesson SoonHei died to teach us.
His death must be firmly condemned least we risk it being glorified and worse case scenario such death becomes a theme here. It gives me no pleasure to say he was a deluded fool, a victim of his own spiritualized ego, and it ended his life out of pure fear disguised as lofty spirituality. Know that for a minor turn of fate it could have happened to any of us. Those who Know know it did happen to us. It is loss. It is pain. It is grief and hardship and remorse. Be wise. Learn from this mistake and don't repeat it.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Ryan R said:

he was a deluded fool, a victim of his own spiritualized ego, and it ended his life out of pure fear disguised as lofty spirituality.

We actually don't know this.

Maybe it was lack of fear. If one completely ignores all fear, and all caution, there is little stopping you from jumping off a bridge.

Fear is there for a reason: to keep you alive.

[Thetruthseeker]

This is very sad news indeed. Thoughts with the family 

But the unfortunate truth is that after actualized has millions upon millions of views, it was inevitable that someone who committed suicide was somehow linked to actualized. 
but of course someone who commited suicide could be identified as a ‘forum member’ but could have also been anything else going on in his life. 
 

someone mentioned that Leo should put out a video mentioning SoonHei’s name. I don’t think there’s need for this. 

I remember once someone read an e book I wrote and then blamed me for their depression. It was a long mess of small court, lawyers etc 

For some reason, people are waiting in the wings for Leo and something like this will be exactly what some people have waited for to tear him down. 
It could be blown out of proportion and risk everything. 

[SpiritualAwakening]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

We actually don't know this.

Maybe it was lack of fear.

One of the things was definitely selfishness, which comes back to ego

[Flowerfaeiry]

The psychotic drowns in the same waters in which the mystic swims. Joseph Campbell.

 

I'm not calling him psychotic, btw

Edited May 20, 2021 by Flowerfaeiry

[Preety_India]

Please don't call the guy a fool or other adjectives. 

I see a terrible lack of respect on this thread.