Annoynymous

Biden has come back

71 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What Bernie supporters and progrrssives need to understand is that they are in a bubble. The majority of the Americans are not progressive, they are moderate. "The establishment" is not just the corporations, media, and Washington, it is most of the citizens as well. The media is establishment precisely because that's what most people pay to watch, not because the media is somehow overriding the will of the people. The will of the people is just not very bright and the media reflects that. The establishment IS the people. That's what progessives are in denial about.

Gotta disagree here. Poll after poll has shown, that when people are asked about which issues they support, they overwhelmingly come out in favor of the so-called ´progressive´ agenda: Universal health care, gun control, no endless wars, legalizing marijuana, etc.

It's just that when these policies come with the added label of ´far-left´ or `democratic socialism`, that the media narrative comes into the picture and skewers everything.

I genuinely think the current electorate resonates with Bernie's policies. the problem is the media narrative, combined with all the misinformation and fear-mongering.

Bernie has a serious marketing problem, he in fact a moderate and Biden is the far-right candidate. Additionally, if you are an anti-establishment candidate, why play nice with the establishment and call Joe Biden `a good person` and ´a good friend´?  Why be so soft? Even if Bernie gets elected, will the establishment really let him pass all his ideas if he continues to be nice? 

This is the equivalent of plugging 2mg 5-MeO and hoping for ego death. You've got to go all-in and increase the dose man!


We are enslaved by anything we do not consciously see. We are freed by conscious perception.

- Vernon Howard

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People underestimate Trump so much. When Trump wins, he wins bigly. 

The joke was on the people who thought Trump would get impeached. 

Well that didn't happen. 

Anyone who thinks Biden has a better chance over Bernie and Trump might as well start believing that a unicorn will become president. 

Bernie is poplar obviously. But let's see how he matches up with Trump in the debate. 

Look at the trend. Bush was in office for both terms and so was Obama. Trump didn't do anything for it to be different. 

 

Edited by Preety_India

 INTP loner... .shy girl.. The devil loves me a bit too much. 

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That’s it! I’m starting Time Angel.

the world or fiction needs more nuance and progressiveness.


 You have been gifted the Golden Kappa~! 

 

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@Serotoninluv I understand. Still i think Biden can not win against trump. If he becomes nominee and enters into presidential debates againt Trump, then Trump is just gonna tear him apart unless he somehow brings back his "prime time".

 

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As Robert Reich puts it, the democrats best chance to defeat a fake populist is with the real deal (Bernie Sanders).

He doesn't excel in scenarios when there are 10 people on stage and everyone has very limited time to make their points. But 1 v 1 with Trump? He can call him out on all his bullshit that Biden wouldn't be able to do (because Biden is largely guilty of the same things) and what is Trump gonna respond with? Venezuela? Lol. 

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Perhaps the issue is liberal democracy? It's their (the moneyed class) system after after all.  How are we going to make money in politics illegal if candidates who want to do so can't get elected because of money in politics?  Perhaps our very  system of liberal democracy was created by those with money and needs to go. After all, the American and French revolutions were both made by those with money.

 


لا إله إلا الله، وليو رسول الله

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39 minutes ago, HelluvaGuy said:

@Serotoninluv Warren endorsed Clinton after she had become the presumtive nominee. 

Warren endorsed Clinton on June 9th, weeks before Bernie dropped out. Warren’s endorsement of Clinton was one of the nails in Bernie’s coffin. She did not take a “neutral” position. She endorsed Clinton at a time when it still mattered and served as leverage against Bernie.

She took a calculated position. If she wanted to take a “neutral” position, she could have waited until Bernie dropped out and then endorsed Clinton. Yet she didn’t because she saw the tea leaves and wanted to benefit by endorsing Clinton when it still mattered.

Currently, I could see Warren going to the sidelines and not endorsing for a while. Yet Warren fought Biden for a decade over bankruptcy reform and Biden voted for the bankruptcy bill. This goes against the heart of Warren’s fight. 

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44 minutes ago, legendary said:
3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What Bernie supporters and progrrssives need to understand is that they are in a bubble. The majority of the Americans are not progressive, they are moderate. "The establishment" is not just the corporations, media, and Washington, it is most of the citizens as well. The media is establishment precisely because that's what most people pay to watch, not because the media is somehow overriding the will of the people. The will of the people is just not very bright and the media reflects that. The establishment IS the people. That's what progessives are in denial about.

 

i also need to disagree 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/03/us/elections/results-massachusetts-president-democrat-primary-election.html

the vote was split between the progressives and the centrists. everyone dropped out and pete & amy gave biden endorsements. if warren dropped out, then the bernie would have won

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12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

voters have to grow up (or die). Most would rather die than grow up. 

@Leo Gura, I have  question, is it possible that an Orange vmeme society will refuse to grow up, even when it fully sees its' limitations, and then just die by eating itself because it refused to evolve?


لا إله إلا الله، وليو رسول الله

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45 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

The joke was on the people who thought Trump would get impeached. 

Well that didn't happen. 

Trump did get impeached. He didn’t get convicted. Yet no one thought Trump would get convicted because it would require a 2/3 majority in a republican-led senate. 

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7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not rigged against Bernie

It depends on what one defines as 'rigged' but when the Democratic party does everything it can to stack the process against Bernie including closing polling places in areas he had a clear advantage to gain more percentage points in tight contests making it harder for his supporters to actually vote.

Not to mention the media doing everything it can to craft a negative narrative about Bernie in attacking everything about him including his supporters which really does influence undecided voters about whether they want to be painted in that way themselves.

Then other candidates do everything they can to block him from potential delegates to win it outright with a majority it does make one consider that word could be apropos to the situation.

Yet, that doesn't mean they actually cheated the vote count which would be election 'fraud' as opposed to what one could just consider 'rigged'.

Of course, that does not erase what you suggest about their ability to transcend the things that would prevent them from being ready for such a transformation.

Edited by SOUL

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@Thewritersunion I discovered that Youtube channel a while ago. That guy makes some pretty good satire. Thanks for the link I laughed out loud.

Edited by Roy

"Your mind can never change, unless you ask it to. Lovingly rearrange, the thoughts that make you blue."

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6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not rigged against Bernie, the majority of the country is simply not educated or developed enough to vote for Green.

In a democracy, not the best candidates wins, but the one who best matches the development level of the people. That what we're seeing. That's also why Trump won.

The simple fact is, Americans are pretty damn ignorant, so you shouldn't expect them to all of the sudden elect amazing people. That has never been the case.

What Bernie supporters and progrrssives need to understand is that they are in a bubble. The majority of the Americans are not progressive, they are moderate. "The establishment" is not just the corporations, media, and Washington, it is most of the citizens as well. The media is establishment precisely because that's what most people pay to watch, not because the media is somehow overriding the will of the people. The will of the people is just not very bright and the media reflects that. The establishment IS the people. That's what progessives are in denial about.

I see a lot of progressives in denial about thier own biases, projecting their progressive bias on the media and estblaishment. When a progressive calls the media biased, the truth is, the progressive is biased but cannot see it, so the only option is to blame the media.

Joe Biden didn't win because of a rigged media. He won because that's where most people are at. And that's a very difficult thing for progressives to admit. Progressives need to admit that most people are not progrssives. This is a more realistic starting point rather than assuming that a majority of people are progressives but some evil "establishment" is holding them back. That gets into fantastical conspiracy theory territory which fails to properly identify the problem and take responsibility for it.

Yes and no. There is a lot of ignorance. That's a given. Lots of people at Orange and Blue.

But I went canvassing for Bernie (only at houses with registered Democrats), and most people who were anti-Bernie were simply reiterating misleading and false talking points that the mainstream media has proliferated.

One guy was genuinely concerned about Bernie because he was afraid he was going to "take away healthcare from people". And that he and his wife worked hard to get the healthcare they have... just to have Bernie kick them off. But when we told him that that isn't part of the Medicare for All plan and that Bernie just wanted to expand the Medicare program to everyone and include dental and vision, he was genuinely interested. He spoke to me and the other canvasser for 15 minutes about it. 

And honestly, who wouldn't be interest in single-payer healthcare if you know what it entails? Regardless of stage, if someone knows what's up, they will vote in their own best interest.... as long as they are getting true information.

Honestly, even if someone's in Purple or Red, they are going to take the cheaper healthcare option if it's offered to them and they know what they're being offered.

In fact, according to polling, most Americans (the majority of Democratic voters and a sizable minority of Republican voters) support single-payer healthcare, raising the minimum wage, taking aggressive action toward combatting climate change, legalizing marijuana, and getting corporate money out of politics. So, all of Bernie's proposals are popular with the MAJORITY of Americans.

And many are just designed to put us on par with the rest of the developed world... which also has a significant amount of unconsciousness as it's not just an American problem. And yet they've gotten many similar policies passed.

The problem is that Bernie's positions have been smeared and misrepresented. And many, who I spoke to, that said "Bernie is my favorite" also said that they didn't want to vote for him because they thought Bloomberg or Biden would be better able to beat Trump because of the money thing or because "we need a moderate to win". 

So, I don't necessarily see this as the will of the people and a reflection of where they really are.

But I do see it as reflective of their level of consciousness because the media they consume is funded by corporations and wealthy donors that are very anti-Sanders. They will obviously have an anti-progressive slant, and most people (especially older voters) will fall for the misdirection. So, that's the part that's unconscious about them... under-education and susceptibility to misdirection. But their opinion is quite a bit more progressive than the establishment norms.

 

 


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8 hours ago, legendary said:

Gotta disagree here. Poll after poll has shown, that when people are asked about which issues they support, they overwhelmingly come out in favor of the so-called ´progressive´ agenda: Universal health care, gun control, no endless wars, legalizing marijuana, etc.

But that's not how people vote. People do not vote on policy, they vote using their gut which follows their level of development. People vote based on the candidates personality and vibe more than policy.

On paper, yes, people like many progressive policies, but they are also scared of change and they vote like sheep in a herd. They do not carefully evaluate things and they are not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make Green happen.

It's easy to say you want Med4All in a poll. It's a lot harder when you realize your taxes might go up, and you might have to sacrifice your current doctor to make it happen, and you might have to vote against your own family, friends, and church group.

It's like if you polled people in Iraq whether they want to live in a rich democractic country. They would all say yes. But when you tell them they have to surrender fundamentalist Islam and clan warfare and petty corruption, they will not be able to do it because they haven't developed that high yet. Good stuff comes at a cost. It isn't free. If you want to live in a democracy there are certain sacrifices that must be made, like tolerating your neighbhor who has a different religion than you. Or not killing gays for being gay. You'd think such sacrifices are not a big deal, but they are a big deal to many traditional people. People are scared of change. People are scared of selflessness. Most people treats politics and life as an arms race, looking to gain the most advantage for themselves rather than doing what is best for the collective. People's fear , hate, and selfishness overpowers their love, hope, and selflessness. It's easy to say you want love, but will you actually follow through when your survival is threatened? Will you lay down your fear and judgment? Most won't. People want love but aren't willing to pay the cost to get it.

Good luck convincing a mother of 3 who works in accounting for the health insurance industry to support Med4All when it means that she will likely lose her job and her kids will not get the toys they want for Xmas.

It's not just evil corporations at work here. The "evil corporations" are supported by many middle class folks because it pays their bills. "The establishment" is made out of ordinary citizens, not some special race of evil reptile people.

How do you convince ordinary citizens to sacrifice for the greater good? << That is the root problem here.

And also, how do you get them to stop thinking and acting like herd animals? In a herd, even if one sheep develops a mind of its own, very soon it will be peer pressured by the herd to fall back in line. The herd feels comfy with Biden. Policies be damned.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How do you convince ordinary citizens to sacrifice for the greater good? << That is the root problem here.

Well, it boils down to them being properly educated and understanding what the greater good is and that they also benefit from the greater good. 

I've seen so many misinformed people posting bs memes that Bernie is going to tax them 52% on the $30,000 they make every year. So, they believe that a Sanders presidency would be disastrous for them.

But the reality is that Bernie's presidency would benefit them. And they would see that the greater good that Bernie serves also includes them... and almost everyone in the middle class and everyone in the working class and under the poverty line. 

And the establishment leaders see to it that the people are ill-informed and misdirected to where they vote against their own best interest AND the greater good... which are one and the same.

And that's why the establishment heads take the lion's share of the fault. Average people go for it. Sure. But it largely comes from purposeful confusion and under-education in civic matters handed down from the powers that be.

So, I do see a big practical distinction between the establishment as an institution and the people that they manipulate into supporting them and the status quo against their own best interests.

 


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9 hours ago, Thewritersunion said:

That’s it! I’m starting Time Angel.

the world or fiction needs more nuance and progressiveness.

A book?


3paj2a.jpg

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I think Bernie wins...People are desperate for a change, and he is the biggest chance for that.  People love the underdog and Bernie is in the perfect underdog spot...not too high, not too low.  There will be another momentum shift, and it will be in Sanders favor.  

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