ardacigin

Why Talent Is Overrated in Spirituality (Shinzen Young Case Study)

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@zeroISinfinity  you win. I'm not mature enough. aswell as i'm not educated enough to make moves past this point. Abstract thinking worked before, but its counter-intuitive when actually dealing with people from a position of knower, as opposed to wanting-to-know

Then there's also the added fact that i have never had an enlightenment experience for qualifications purposes

So this is win/win/win for everybody. 

Looks like we'll have to leave it to god to see how it plays out. 

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@mandyjw Yeah I did need all of that but only after enlightenment. 

Why? Because everything collapse and you have milion questions and on top of that spiritual teachings don't correspond quite accuratelly. 😂

I do it in counter way. Get "experience" and after it I do research for comfirmation. 

Without help I would tought something along These lines.

Omfg I am literally devil and I have to die for God. I do not need life and all other crap I do not need forms. I want home. 😂

 

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@Aakash Drop thinking. Simple. 

Thinking separates you from the world and creates "others". 

False notion that you are aware of outside world. 

Look it as this way. I am Consciousness. Look around, I am everything around "me". 

Notice that all "objects' have same 'value'. Your body is not more important then everything else. 

What Will might help you to break from conditioned materialistic notion is to stop looking at the world as bunch of separated objects/particle. See it as unified field, look everything as energy/ocean like. 

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@Leo Gura

Do you think people with spiritual giftedness can regress and change their brain chemistry?
Can they block their gift as to lose it? Can you make permanent damages and not be able to access it anymore? What they've been able to do one day, not being able to do it ever again?

Or can you voluntarily block it, reject it, and therefore lose it? Or some of its power.

Or it is actually impossible lose the "foundation"?

I am talking more exactly about neuroplasticity.

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1 hour ago, Aakash said:

Then there's also the added fact that i have never had an enlightenment experience

A small crack, nonetheless that light practically blinded me. Seeing you for the first time. Nice.  🙏🏻♥️

Would you like to?


  Nonduality & Meditations         

Empty your head, fulfill your heart       

 

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@Aakash I agree, that's pretty much what I said.
People will put down another's gifts because they have not found theirs yet we all have them.

4 hours ago, Aakash said:
11 hours ago, Keyhole said:

I think that people who want to be special try to make light of it because they secretly want it, and admitting that ain't kosher - and if they can minimize someone else with it, then they don't feel "ordinary" - not realizing that such things often have a double edged sword anyways - and that there are many avenues for excellence.  

 

Something got lost in translation, so let me rewrite this. ^

I think that people who don't feel that they are good enough try to put others down because they want to feel special - just like the person they put down.  But this is not something that society is allowed to admit.  If they can make the person who they feel is "more special" look small, then they do not have to worry anymore about feeling ordinary.  And then I go on to mention that spiritual gifts are a double edged sword - and are not what they are cracked up to be - and they don't come handed on a silver platter, there is still work involved.  I finalize my statement by mentioning that there are many areas for a person to excel in life.

But on the flip side of this is getting cocky about it.  If it isn't coming from the heart and soul it isn't going to have any of those good nutrients in it.  Well, it might have some, I can't say it wouldn't have any - but the nutrients will be flat.

That said - a teacher that I really appreciate, and who often has the right words to say at the right time, wrote this three part blog series on the need to be special - yet another trap - that one can eat a person alive as well.  So I'll share it here because it is also something to look into depending on if there is a need:
 

🌺 - The cosmic significance of insignificance pt.1

🌺 - The cosmic significance of insignificance part 2 - breaking out of the cocoon

🌺 - The cosmic significance of insignificance pt. 3 - the joy of the cosmic play

So there are two sides to this coin.  More than two, I am sure.


🌺 

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Talent is for amateurs. 

Do the work, fall in love with the process. That is the path of the master.

It is not wise to compare yourself to Picasso if you want to paint. 

You can read all the books on swimming but until you jump in the water, you will never know what it feels like.

Drugs are just another experience. Remember, there are no ordinary moments. If you think there are shortcuts, you are deluding yourself. 

This is all a distraction. Get back to work. 

Your old friend boredom is waiting for you with open legs. 

Get your face in there.

Go to town on that bush.
 

Those who talk, don’t know. 
Those who know, don’t talk. 

- Tao Te Ching


 


swashbuckler 4 life xD
TRUTHORITY.ORG

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47 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

But on the flip side of this is getting cocky about it.  If it isn't coming from the heart and soul it isn't going to have any of those good nutrients in it.  Well, it might have some, I can't say it wouldn't have any - but the nutrients will be flat.

The downsides of it by my understanding are: 

believing your ego is better than others 

believing that other's can't reach your level of "special-ness" 

believing that your gifts are god given especially for you, instead of something you cultivated as a result of standing on the shoulder of giants

believing that others should reach your level of standards (wholesomely) 

believing that there are not people that can overtake you (complacency) 

believing that you need to sabotage others, so it doesn't diminish your reputation 

believing in your special-ness as an identity itself

believing you know what's best for others and everything as a whole 

believing that you need to be the best for insecurity reasons (which is intertwined with your reason for needing to be the best- the double edge sword that can't be stopped, as a result of it being double edged) The double edge part isn't bad, but its when you project it to others that its bad

believing that your superior and not listening to the viewpoints of others 

believing in your best-ness and obscuring your reality (which is actually required to reach the top in the first place) its when it becomes pathological that you start feeling the need to sabotage others

These are probably the most unconscious ones. Ofcourse, if you were conscious you would question these before putting it into perspective of best-ness. The truth is at the end of the day, if your the best your the best. You can't get away from this statement by merely proclaiming humble-ness but this is the projection aspect. My morality lies with this: if you have it then you can say it. You have to work for it, there is no way a baby can be the best and that's just facts. 

My view of the best is top 10 -20 in any field. To me once you've reached over a certain threshold there's nothing seperating you from others that are also top of the game besides statistics. And statistics are down to your past history and there are too many factors involved to simple state you are the best just because you had the best environment, teachers etc. This is relatively inaccurate statement. So the best for me is always top 20 or so people in any field. Like you can't say there's any difference between martin luther king and buddha, they're equally as best as each other. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't know how to explain this, but...

why are you guys comparing yourself to the Prophets? Jesus and Buddha etc. All based on pure assumptions..

 

Here's what they've got to say;

14:11

Their messengers said to them: "True, we are human like yourselves, but Allah does grant His grace to such of his servants as He pleases. It is not for us to bring you an authority except as Allah permits. And on Allah let all men of faith put their trust."

 

They are the chosen ones. The prophets and the messengers. If I'm not mistaken, there's over 100 000 prophets (in the past). Apart from these, there are many saints. Some we know of, some we don't. 

There are many scriptures, scrolls and Tablets. But the last one is the Quran. It is full circle. 

My guru says, their levels, cannot be compared to those that came after them. It is not the same. 

.......

Upon reading this thread, what comes to mind is, what is the purpose of enlightenment to everyone? 

Why do people wanna get awakened/enlightened? 

What's the roots?

Edited by Angelite

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, Truthority said:

Talent is for amateurs. 

Do the work, fall in love with the process. That is the path of the master.

It is not wise to compare yourself to Picasso if you want to paint. 

You can read all the books on swimming but until you jump in the water, you will never know what it feels like.

Drugs are just another experience. Remember, there are no ordinary moments. If you think there are shortcuts, you are deluding yourself. 

This is all a distraction. Get back to work. 

Your old friend boredom is waiting for you with open legs. 

Get your face in there.

Go to town on that bush.
 

Those who talk, don’t know. 
Those who know, don’t talk. 

- Tao Te Ching

again this is about humble-ness. There is no need to put moral standards on things like being the best. 

This just makes things seem insignificant when they are actually special. if it breeds jealousy, this is actually good because it forces others to be better. 

Also there is a need to compare yourself to greats, because there's no person alive who is better than you. There are just people who are better at certain aspects of the same "field" as you. However, overall all contributions were needed to lay foundations for that specific field. So relatively there is nothing that is more special than others. 

By this logic, there would be no reason for me to overtake Leo, this is a self-limiting biased. There is nothing godly about leo in my eyes that proves to me that he is any better than me. BUT i acknowledge that there are things that leo can do, that i can't do. And thats the great thing about diversity, there's no absolute relative standard that can compare two people. Therefore by this logic itself. There is ONLY special people and that pertains to everyone! 

Competition is not a negative thing, its negative when done unconsciously by BOTH PARTIES. Competition breeds the best out of people and that's how it should be. competition is a beautiful thing. Its because you know that there are people better than yourself, that makes you want to be better than them. its pathological when the overall success is deemed by titles! "best in the world" "best team of all time" "best of the best" "best in the field" because as i've said to work for such a goal is ridiculous. nonetheless, its an aspiration, and the journey itself that actually matter as you said

When you can see your opponent as beautiful then there is no animosity and it breeds a level playing field. What needs to happen is people actually need to help their enemies to raise their game, so that in turn it will let you raise your own game. You take responsibility for both parties, because the ripple effect will help everyone. Scratch each others back. it is loses that breeds great champions, it is not actually success. A champion who has never failed, is no champion. A champion who reached where they did by pure luck and never acknowledged it as pure luck is no champion. This is humility when you can turn around and say, you did not do it by your own efforts. This is the cultural issue we see with stage orange. The need to brag that they achieved things on their own, when in fact they never. its actually a lie. 

The way a teacher- student relationship should go is as follows 

Teacher teaches student 

Student challenges teacher about their position on certain features of their teaching

Student fails in attempt to challenge position 

Student regroups 

Student challenges teacher and fails over and over and over again 

Student develops their own method and innovates and creates

Student challenges teacher and wins 

Teacher regroups and become better 

Teacher challenges Teacher for new teacher position 

Teacher who loses, turns into student   or this is the final match and either teacher goes away and does their own thing, repeating the cycle with other students , and this breeds the best teachers, the best students

This is the process of mastery,

1) Learn knowledge or skill

2) create via knowledge or skill 

3) master skill or knowledge with your own individuality

individuality breeds success

When you start factory farming students, that's when you can measure them as a relative representative. Things should be so diverse it should be hard to create a model for modelling people. Therefore improving the standards on which such skills and knowledge are based on. This process repeats again

its about bringing the best out of each person individually and its loses that make this happen. If everyone won, it would stop this and therefore competition should be fair and equal. NOT rigged for everyone to win

Edited by Aakash

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Posted (edited)

@Angelite This is enlightened competition!! 

You can't stop the force of nature, you must react or die. 

What happens when you become enlightened is you detach from your story and so your ego isn't involved with the outcome. It does no benefit for the actual ego itself. There are many ways to define "ego" ,the ego you are talking about is a sense of "i" 

the ego i am talking about in this case is a superior unhealthy "ego" , what i'm trying to show is what a "healthy ego" looks like from both student and teacher and people who claim they are the best. 

Its impossible to demonize ANYTHING in reality because it is you. To escape , run away, reject , is all things enlightenment deals with to end suffering. What needs to actually happen is people need to become more conscious to destroy their ego. Its like i keep saying to people there are three forms of enlightenment. Each as equally highest truths as the other ones. 

whatever way you define ego is what ever way you will be enlightened from that ego

Edited by Aakash

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Posted (edited)

This is definitely a thing, I think it comes down to past lives but I have witness many people take this path and some seem to make very small progress despite doing lots of pratice. This is also a common thing in monasterys. 

Also bare in mind being gifted in this area comes with it's own problems. I'm not saying I have talent in this area I wouldn't know for sure, but I have put in massive amounts of work and expirenced alot, I had no self expirneces at the age of 4.  The deeper you go the more u feel different from the rest of the world and it's so hard to find people to relate to, even people on the path. You have to water down your insights so people can understand you and not think your crazy. It can be frustrating. 

Edited by noselfnofun

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Posted (edited)

Not sure what is wrong with shinzen young and the category of sensory experience, since I am training with his techniques. I tried other techniques do-nothing, self-inquiry etc. He includes so many techniques which stem from other techniques, for e.g he also recommended to me body sweeping for dealing with kriyas and his techniques also evolved listening to older guided meditations from him, I am not sure what for e.g is the most advanced technique or a tier list of the best techniques where people receive a lot of results, even if they are different etc.

Also as far as I assume Shinzen does not deny sidhis etc. in his new video he even explains the neuroanatomy of how sidhis can occure and how the process of experiencing sound changes as well and which parts of the brain-body are involved. I also know he does shamanic rituals, not sure how deep they go, I know he tried psychdelics like LSD, and his story/history with procrastination and taking responsibility, even smoking grass, he speaks openly about this.

He also gives similar advice as Culasada I bought the audiobook and read some articles online about the stages. I am not sure how I can rate myself on this scale of stages yet. I assume I am somwhere around 6-7 (potentially hitting 8 my brain is annoying) by reading the description. For e.g extremely strong experiences/sensations of cold or heat can be a sign of a higher stage (7+) IIRC shinzen adviced a guy during lpp, that he can focus on them intensly, and it sounded a bit absurd, but it is basically Form changing with whatever process of biochemical/physical/neurochemical change.

Culadasa denied that there is spiritual talent, I am not sure why and I am not sure if I recall correctly, yet he said something about this topic in the "BuddahAtTheGasPump" interview. 

Also Shinzen mentioned in his audiobook that the great great masters never talk with each other, he is open to it I assume since he wanted me to know that learning the technical terms of each tradition is important incase I want to converse about them with others and not cause any incomprehensibleness. Yet , it is rarely seen that many spiritual masters gather around and 

Shinzen Young also mentioned he knows spiral dynamics in the last lpp, he made a slight "allusion" and said instead of an upward spiral, you spiral upwards "like" spiral dynamics etc. And again if anyone is interested I'll send the talk. 

Also I assume and for sure correct me if I am wrong that Leo mentioned that teachers do not share everything they know, they would be called a lunatic etc. I notice this when Shinzen gives advice to others and they come to him and he gives them a very different response for e.g than me, yet it is important to mention personality types even the teacher liking you etc. does matter. Same with the monks at the zen retreat, sprial dynamics explains a lot of this, especially if there is a physics major present. 

He also speaks about makiyo and power releams I am not sure how far this is fusionable ( can be conflated..) with machine elves, trees talking, people experiencing angles etc. Or if this is just the subtle releam ( with reference to wilber). 

I am not denying anything that was said in the thread, I assume it will mostly fall on deaf ears, I don't have much experiences with sidhis or stuff that I will regard as power releams etc or the subtle releam. I do did experience one thing that I would clearly lable as non-ordinary etc.

I never talked with a master about psychedelic experiences if I get the chance I will ask, yet I am not sure which spiritual grandmasters are willing to talk about this. 

Also as far as I read I am not sure how deeply enlightend the buddah was, yet he did confuse in his teachings samsara and nirvana seeing them as dual, not non-dual the yogachakra schools were the ones who created the concept of non-duality that samsara and nirvana are one, and seeing into the illusory nature of samsara is nirvana. It seemd more nuanced and relative. 

Shinzen does not necessarily include developmental psychology and achievments about biology, neuroscience and the shadow potentially, directly into his teaching, potentially subtely he definitely shares parts of the things included above in his dharma talks. But, yes he mentioned neurological change in his new video somewhere around the end, I'll link it for thoese interested. As I said I could be wrong he speaks about this sidhi IMO! Dibba-sota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi and mentions the east asian term, additionaly the science behind it or it is just a purification of the senses.



@ardacigin
@Leo Gura

Edited by ValiantSalvatore

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Posted (edited)

@Aakash That's a great list.  
We are all gifted;talented; and whatever brings us closer to our true selves and gives us the most joy are where those gifts reside; and they should be embraced - for they are the Self manifesting itself perfectly.

It is flow.

The humility lies in that everyone and no one is gifted and special.
I don't believe in competition against other people - only trying to manifest the joy in doing something that I love - of which there is limited energy for - so competition is a waste of my time.

What the goal is, is to find the talents within others that hold the divine spark of God.  
And to harvest this within everyone.
Flow.
Presence.  

Look for it.

It is important on a spiritual and energetic level to understand where our tools and products come from. Who made or cultivated them, what sort of energy they have, what sort of connection they have to their craft.

A loving soul connection to what is being crafted means that that connection, that relationship, enlivens the tool, product, etc. Many practitioners speak, sing, or otherwise communicate to their plants, their tools, their cooking, jewelry and artwork, as they are being created to “speak them into being”. To help them not only to connect but to understand their purpose.

The herb, the tool, the piece of jewelry, is also a being in and of itself. Much like a child, neglect and abuse will cause for it to become devitalized, or even traumatized. Loving connection and passion will allow for it to thrive, to become what it was fully intended to be.

When someone is cultivating something (be it plant, tool, meal, artwork, book, etc) who they are is intertwined with it energetically. This can mean incredible things, a merging of two intelligences, creative capacity and soul finding its way into a world direly in need of beauty, connection, and soul.

It can also mean that someone who is energetically absent, emotionally chaotic, or who does not have a connection to what they are doing may not be the best person to purchase from. Those energies are intertwined with what you have bought from them.

Always look for passion, for regard, for education, for the soul present in spiritual crafts. You can tell when someone’s soul, their vitality, is present in something, be it meal, artwork, or drum, by your innate, intuitive, response to it. You can also read their bio, their methods of production, and these days, can see what energies they bring into the world (and surround them) via social media.

Written by Mary Shutan
(I love this person's writing style soooo much.)

 


^ Soul

Edited by Keyhole

🌺 

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15 hours ago, Lynnel said:

You wouldn't know what spiritually gifted is unless you had a ground for comparison.

Maybe you're actually quite gifted to begin with and someone else wouldn't have had your spiritual experiences if he were under the exact same conditions.

For instance I've always assumed that anyone is able to change as much as a do or take personnal development as seriously as I do, and actually get what they want - but the more I talk to people the more I feel gifted because they seem to be stuck for no particular reason. It just doesn't click. 

I've had a personality type extremely oriented towards accomplishement and also a strong belief in anything being possible which already was the case even when I had zero personnal development work.

I've had the exact same experience, but concluded a completely different answer.

Why I say this is because I've literally been in, and experienced being stuck, and being non stuck, being spiritually gifted, and being spiritually non gifted.

 

I Know, and have observed that the things that have made me unstuck were watching Leo's videos at the exact right time, and at the right place in my life. 

 

Materialism broke down when I started watching Leo's videos and miraculously I quit university - the materialistic pumping machine.

 

Such coincidences was not a partial support but the CAUSE of materialism being destroyed.

 

Leo has a point, everyone isn't the same and is certainly different. In University I use to study at least 40 hours a week for maths and still failed. I knew friends who didn't study at all and passed. I also clearly(with evidence) identified WHY I was failing, and observed within myself that the way I was thinking was the cause of the failure, and others clearly didn't have this way of thinking. Also cognitive abilities like memory change massively. As he says, it is a massive relief and joy to admit and realize that my failures were not from being lazy, but from this innate different way of thinking.

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Quote

Teacher teaches student

False trichotomy. 

Time to drop it. 

The guru is within.
- Yogani


swashbuckler 4 life xD
TRUTHORITY.ORG

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@Truthority Where did you learn that you learnt it from a teacher. 

Don’t think you can do everything yourself. 

Even the teacher had to teach you how to go inside. 

Quoting non-duality is Not helpful sometimes to others. Still I appreciate the thought 

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7 hours ago, electroBeam said:

I've had the exact same experience, but concluded a completely different answer.

Why I say this is because I've literally been in, and experienced being stuck, and being non stuck, being spiritually gifted, and being spiritually non gifted.

This is getting a bit muddy.

Image your spirituality inborn skill level (think of dragon ball xD) is 30. When you're stuck it's 30 and when you're not stuck you can achieve something like 400. Maybe thirthy would be gifted compared to someone who started with then and whose experience of being stuck would be longer or more painful/grindy. You have no way to know how good your baseline is. That's the point here.

Nonetheless I tend to think that discussions about talent are usually not helpful as it's often used overall as an excuse in one way or another.

You could've been bad at math simply because you misunderstood some basic math down the line and since math is extremely linear and builds up like a pyramid, it's easy to see how you would have failed :P Thinking that you're failing because you're special or different is exactly what we need to avoid in our thinking.

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10 hours ago, Lynnel said:

You could've been bad at math simply because you misunderstood some basic math down the line and since math is extremely linear and builds up like a pyramid, it's easy to see how you would have failed :P Thinking that you're failing because you're special or different is exactly what we need to avoid in our thinking.

No that's definitely not true.

I was thought to have dyslexia by my teachers, a disease which prevents your left side of the brain functioning in the same way as most others.

 

It is definitely possible to be bad at maths, and realizing so has many benefits. I was called lazy by my parents and punished for my bad marks even though I studied hours upon hours. Imagine if the world was aware that you could actually be bad at maths? No punishment and acceptance of the grades and a focus of doing a different subject you enjoy.

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On 7/28/2019 at 0:48 PM, Leo Gura said:

The more I study and explore spirituality, the more convinced I am that spiritual talent plays a bigger and bigger role. I have met and talked with people who access crazy superhuman levels of consciously totally effortlessly without training. And these people can go deeper than those who practice for 40 years.

It's quite unfair and outrageous. This is like a dirty giant secret of spirituality and meditation which no one tells you about because they want to believe we are all equal.

Well, the truth is, we are nowhere close to equal.

My experiments with psychedelics back this up. There are levels of consciousness so radical that you will never access them if you lack the proper neurotransmitters.

Leo, I'm curious to know, how will this help you? Especially what you said on the last paragraph. If the consciousness is so "radical," how will this help? Does this mean, for instance, that you won't be reincarnated? Or, what? Did it make you less needy? Did it tell you something more about life? Most of all, in one of your blog videos, you were saying that Shinzen Young's and Peter Ralston's enlightenment isn't that deep? Did they tell you exactly? No? Well, how deep do you want it? Don't they all point to the same thing after a certain point? Any form of "everythingness" that you see in your trips is still everythingness. To me, you don't know how deep are their enlightenment. Shinzen Young might be using a metaphor, like "Riding the Ox Backwards" to sum up the whole thing. It's just to communicate to his audience. Ralston might be doing the same thing.

Another thing that Shinzen Young said was, "Enlightenment is a many faceted jewel. Today's enlightenment is tomorrow's mistake." This sounds like another metaphor. He must've had very profound awakenings. In the second sentence of this quote, it sounds like what he is saying is, even after the deepest awakening, which is "Riding the Ox Backwards," you still have to live life to the fullest and reach milestones in order to go deeper and for more genuine awakenings to occur.

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