Why Talent Is Overrated in Spirituality (Shinzen Young Case Study)

[archi]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course technically I don't. I can't crawl inside their heads.

But one can still make educated deductions.

When an enlightened person is not able to properly answer questions about the nature of Love or Truth, that's a red flag. If Love or Truth are denied, something in their understanding is missing.

To me the highest teaching is very simple:

1. You are God.
2. Infinite Consciousness is the only thing that exists.
3. Everything is imaginary.
4. Everything is designed for the sake of Absolute Love.
5. Truth & Love are totally identical.

Any teaching which does not state the above in clear & explicit terms, I am suspicious of. There are further nuances, but that's the core of spirituality/awakening.

You are like Shazam with your points, . 

You got me on Shinzen - I always had strange feeling that he misses something, aka seems to me still stuck in something.

@Leo Gura Given you shared your opinion, how do you perceive Culadasa, wrt your 5 points above?

Edited July 31, 2019 by archi

[zeroISinfinity]

1.You are Source/Non existance 

2.Source and Consciousness are identical

3 Everything is Pure Love/Formless Nothing 

4 Everything  exists /desire of the Source

5.Love is all That IS

6 Reality is Perfect

Can I die now already, done with this "dream". 

Told you full Truth. 

 

[Key Elements]

God's Arrow by Shinzen Young

Love by Shinzen Young

@Leo Gura the both of you said the same points in different ways.

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

Jeffery Martin says it's about 1%, maybe he is wrong.

He's using a very loose definition, something along the lines of: anyone who's ever be in a non-symbolic state. But that's very short of what I'm talking about.

I don't consider Jeffery Martin enlightened. Not even close. He's still thoroughly materialistic in his explanations of reality & consciousness.

His research is good, but far short of where this rabbit hole ultimately goes.

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You just seem to have unusual goals as a spiritual seeker.

To me, escaping suffering has never been the goal. The goal has always been understanding reality.

You are right, most people pursue spirituality rather selfishly & narrow-mindedly -- to escape pain or improve their life.

The deepest sages I think pursue it for understanding & Truth, not to escape something negative.

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I don't think there is the one right way to be spiritually, we can do whatever we want.

I generally agree. People are so different that they have different desires and needs.

But also, not all roads lead to the same place, and there are many partial ways to go about spirituality.

12 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@Leo Gura

What kind of truth does he not understand ?

I don't get the sense that Shinzen actually knows what Truth is.

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Who do you think emobdies and understands truth to the deepest level currently on the planet ?
Who do you think emobdies and understands love to the deepest level currently on the planet ?

I don't know. Answering this is problematic because I don't have access to anyone's mind but my own.

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What pratices are worth training from what you currently perceive to reach the deepest level ? I tried most techniques I've found and the ones recommended by you (besides kriya yoga) I don't really have a preference I get results with most of them, I just need to "up" my practice, which I am shooting for in the near future. I also receive the results described, I've been mostly practicing mindfulness and do-nothing. Also a fair amount of people receive real results from shinzen techniques, most join after praticing other techniques for years and they don't sound deep and shinzens advice does not sound all to deep then, and they don't talk about jhanas, power releams, enlightenment stages or insights, but mostly some life relevant matter about practice. 

Shinzen's techniques are good. Will they get you to the deepest levels of understanding? Probably not. But that's okay, they don't need to. A toolbox needs more than one tool in it.

Use Shinzen's techniques, but also don't stop there. Explore other things like psychedelics. I doubt you'll find a technique more powerful than 5-MeO-DMT. But that doesn't mean you should only use 5-MeO-DMT.

An army doesn't just use nuclear weapons. It has all sizes of weapons in its arsenal because a nuclear weapon is not always the right weapon for the job.

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My point is what techniques regardless of differences generally yield tangible results ? And is it wise to train for e.g long with shinzens techniques when there are deeper truth to be realized ? Is that even possible with certain techniques ? Or is altering the physiology than the case ?

It's hard to say. We don't have good science on this yet.

Generally speaking good techniques to try are all the ones I've shared in the past:

• Meditation
• Self-inquiry
• Strong determination sitting
• Contemplation
• Psychedelics
• Vipassana retreats
• Solo retreats
• Yoga
• Dark room retreats
• Shamanic breathing
• Etc.

These are well-worn methods that work for many people.

And in the end, you gotta wonder, is there any other option? Those are the best techniques mankind has developed so far. So you might as well start tinkering around with them. With practice you should find whatever works best for you.

12 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Leo Gura That’s a rather perfect list imo, and a ‘how’ vantage point from those / on those would be one hell of a video. 

There will be future video about the many facets of awakening.

10 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

No, not always, some animals like to play and show affection towards others, they also like to rest and meditate..

All of that is survival. You're still not appreciating what I mean by the notion of survival. It's a much deeper notion than most of you guys here yet realize.

Rest, play, and showing affection is all part of survival. Without them a mammal would be dead.

Animals don't meditate. You're projecting that onto them. They sit and do nothing sometimes. But I wouldn't call that meditation.

1 hour ago, archi said:

You are like Shazam with your points, . 

You got me on Shinzen - I always had strange feeling that he misses something, aka seems to me still stuck in something.

Don't get me wrong, I still like Shinzen as a teacher. Nothing I say here is meant to attack or undermine the work of Shinzen or Ralston or whoever. I'm just adding some extra wrinkles to it.

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@Leo Gura Given you shared your opinion, how do you perceive Culadasa, wrt your 5 points above?

I don't know much about him. You'd have to ask him what he's become conscious of.

[Nahm]

@Leo Gura Of course there will be. ?? You rock man. 

[Key Elements]

@Aakash tell me something. Did you experience the deepest awakening? Because you're giving me tips that are not aligned with my path (after the deepest awakening).

[zeroISinfinity]

Ok have admitted basiclly everything about IT. 

Chae money Kids. Don't chase Truth. It's easier to live. ?

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Leo Gura Thanks for the reply and in-depth answer, I'll definitely tinker around and combine it with yoga. 

I did not experience anything which I could say is the Truth with a capital T, so I can't quite grasp why, but that is okay. I'll definitely observe Truth and Shinzen when I do more, and also other psychdelics, yet ... that could take some time for now.

I am very interested on what shinzen would say about power releams and machine elves stuff like this, because he was trained in the esoteric tradition of japanese vajrayana, anyway his descriptions of it sound quite "culty", but I somehow intuit that he would not necessarily reveal what it could mean, because of his training or potentially for some other reason. I could also be wrong. Or I am wrong. 

But that is very good to know if things are partially that unclear I can just practice what works.... if most things work anyway... 

Thank you again for the answer.  



 

[Aakash]

@Key Elements Upgrading metaknowledge means your meanings on meanings on meaning of shifting words around into different sentences for me. It’s not a very good explanation. But it will have to do. 

I didn’t exactly know you were talking about awakening people. I was just talking about general fields of study 

i didn’t get what he meant by being shot with an arrow that went through time and space. What it sounds like was he basically went back to his physical body after realising it’s all one with all the “understanding” of god  ? This is the only inference I can make. 

If you must know. I have not. But after today, it’s dawning on me that people don’t actually do the process of thinking. 

Let me explain like this. If a facet of god is self - deception and it’s infinite. How do you escape it all of a sudden ? 

[electroBeam]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

• Meditation
• Self-inquiry
• Contemplation
• Psychedelics
• Solo retreats
• Yoga
• Dark room retreats
• Shamanic breathing
• Etc.

You need to really emphasise kriya yoga. After all my searching, I've never witnessed a technique as amazing/awesome/shocking as kriya yoga.

Its highly effective, and while you say spiritual teachers have a low success rate, in my research and experience kriya yogis have the highest.

 

In Sadhguru's shambhavi(inner engineering) 2 day event, over 1000 people developed no mind(including me). The bliss developed in the 3rd eye area was just insane. I witnessed marks on my skin that looked distorted(almost burnt) from the kriya yoga - that's how powerful it was, it caused physical changes to the body. I witnessed the entire stadium compress into the present moment and then explode into infinite form, geometries and sounds. WTF! Sadhguru thought this experience was normal and expected from the yoga

Kriya yoga(Lahiri's) gives you powerful energy moving up and down your spine in the first week of practice. Compare this to zen which takes years to get anywhere for most people.

Jann Esmann's kriya yoga is even more unbelievable than both above. When practicing that yoga, I experienced the present moment be nothing, and that nothing was somehow infinite love(not love, infinite love! That's love in multiple directions and velocities, multiple shapes and forms WTF!) and that was on the first day of trying it. All of Jann Esmann's student's get self realized, and he told me personally that jnana yoga can't get you beyond realization. In my experience that's true. I've(ashamed to say) done little spirituality work in the last 4 years due to motivation and trying techniques that are ineffective and just assuming all of spirituality is too hard, but after trying these techniques above for the last 2 months seriously, am absolutely stunned that no one else is doing this stuff.

 

I've tried the other techniques you've outlined here, but the problem with them is because they are so ineffective(in zen you probably get a tiny/nano mystical insight every 5 days or so) its hard to keep motivated. Furthermore they require many hours to get anywhere with them, furthermore they miss out on a massive part of spirituality which is the geometry of the body. I'm sure there are some value to them for specific cases(like increasing concentration or something) 

 

[zeroISinfinity]

If you want  to wake up. You Will wake up. ?️?‍♂️

Lets speak Truth and avoid possible delusions. 

First question from what place your Thinking comes and what is Actual Source of your intelligence or genious. 

It is your Very own heart. 

More it is pure closer to Truth. 

Clarity of mind comes from Clarity of heart. 

No mind is not achievement like that BS neo advaita teachings tell you. That shit creates clear separation and devoids you from Truth. 

So how to actually access "infinite intelligence" simple purify your heart. 

Pure Heart=Pure Truth

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[Joseph Maynor]

8 minutes ago, zeroISinfinity said:

If you want  to wake up. You Will wake up. ?️?‍♂️

Wake up from what?

[zeroISinfinity]

16 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Wake up from what?

Your ignorance. 

[Joseph Maynor]

17 minutes ago, zeroISinfinity said:

Your ignorance. 

Doesn't it make strategic sense for you to worry about removing your own ignorance before trying to remove other people's ignorance?  Why impose yourself in that way on other people's lives if you're busily designing and building your own life?  This is like not driving your own car well yet worrying about correcting the driving of all the drivers on the road.  If you're standing around worrying about what other people are doing, you're not busy enough with your own work.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Aakash]

@zeroISinfinity Let me phrase like this. 

Can you become more loving than you already are ? 

[zeroISinfinity]

Sorry @Joseph Maynor

It jest felt like perfect reply and it was quite funny. ?️‍♂️

All is fine. 

[Joseph Maynor]

13 minutes ago, Aakash said:

@zeroISinfinity Let me phrase like this. 

Can you become more loving than you already are ? 

Isn't this kind of a dick-measuring contest re-framed as "I'm more loving than you are"?   This is an Ego boost, no?   This is Virtue Signaling.  This is what the Ego-Mind does when it wants to elevate itself relative to other Egos.  I call this positioning yourself near the top of the Totem Pole of Egos.  The Ego-Mind routinely uses Knowledge Signaling and Virtue Signaling for this purpose.  The Ego always wants to think, "I've got a bigger dick than you!"  See?  The Egoic dick-measuring contest/system plays itself out in so many, and even paradoxical, ways.  I call this the Totem Pole of Egos where your Ego is positioning itself to be as high up as you can on that pole.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[zeroISinfinity]

Just now, Aakash said:

@zeroISinfinity Let me phrase like this. 

Can you become more loving than you already are ? 

No, you are Love itself. Reason for Self fragmentation is not to gain or achieve something. It is for you to be able to share it and give it. 

Whole world gets created for you to create. 

[Aakash]

@zeroISinfinity So what about consciousness ? 

[zeroISinfinity]

11 minutes ago, Aakash said:

@zeroISinfinity So what about consciousness ? 

Apparent fragmentation if you want me to put it correctly.