"Leo, but what if you're deluded?"

[Truth Addict]

Just now, Scholar said:

No matter what he would say, he would blend the map with the territory. What is "The truth cannot be communicated" but a map?

Tell that to Leo and his sincere followers.

[Joseph Maynor]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Every word that comes out of my mouth is mental scaffolding.

But beyond that is Absolute Truth.

It I cannot speak because I am it.

No one can ever speak Absolute Truth, they can merely point to it.

My teachings are "true" in the sense that they do a decent job of pointing you towards Absolute Truth.

What about all the detailed statements you make about Absolute Truth in your videos.  Are those just mental scaffolding, yes or no?  How are all those detailed claims like just pointing to Absolute Truth?  You seem to want to have it both ways.  You want to point and you want to talk about it factually.  I think this is a problem.  It's a case of having your cake and eating it too.  Am I right?

Edited May 22, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Truth Addict]

1 minute ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What about all the detailed statements you make about Absolute Truth in your videos.  Are those just mental scaffolding, yes or no?

Finger pointing to the moon 

[arlin]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What about all the detailed statements you make about Absolute Truth in your videos.  Are those just mental scaffolding, yes or no?

You believe that the deailed statements that he makes and that he calls them just "pointers"  are to you a contraddiction?

Edited May 22, 2019 by arlin

[ajasatya]

@Truth Addict each manifestation of GOD has its own map, for which there is no territory! all that exists are maps! (this is also a tiny display of the power of GOD)

GOD, when conscious of Itself and embodied as a human being, will speak from the perspective of the map perceived by the "individual experience" because that's all that can be said. this is why enlightened beings have particular ways of teaching.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

But you've made numerous and specific claims about the Absolute that not everybody who has claimed to "know" the Absolute has made or endorsed by any measure.  Most people believe that Truth cannot be expressed in words.  You've used a lot of words to describe Truth very specifically.  Surely this is not some cannonical Absolute Truth that you're talking about -- this is your version of it, your twist on it.   Wouldn't you agree?

Like I said above, the mind will understand and speak of the Absolute in a thousand different ways depending on culture, era, brain type, personality type, past lives, genetics, language, etc. You must distinguish the Absolute itself from anything said about it. Anything said about it is always poetic, we might say. There is no one right or wrong type of poetry. Although some types are "higher" or more "truthful" than others. Not all poetry is equally good or equally effective at pointing out the Absolute.

Which poetry you prefer will be relative to your mind, your ego, and your needs. If you are an atheist, poetry about God will not inspire you to discover the Absolute. You will prefer more scientific like maps and models. So when I speak of God, that turns a lot of atheistically-minded people off. But this cannot really be avoided since what they refuse to admit is God. And God is the most accurate word for it.

Also keep in mind that there are many facets and degrees of depth to the Absolute. So not every awakened person has realized all the facets and degrees. So they may speak of one facet but not the other. This problem is called the 5 Blind Men And The Elephant (google it). Very, very few people have seen the entire elephant fully.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Truth Addict said:

Finger pointing to the moon 

No no no.  Leo is making specific factual claims about the Absolute.  That's not merely pointing.  That's telling.  Leo wants to have the finger PLUS the finger pointing to the moon.  Am I right?

[Truth Addict]

Just now, ajasatya said:

@Truth Addict each manifestation of GOD has its own map, for which there is no territory! all that exists are maps! (this is also a tiny display of the power of GOD)

GOD, when conscious of Itself and embodied as a human being, will speak from the perspective of the map perceived by the "individual experience" because that's all that can be said. this is why enlightened beings have particular ways of teaching.

Yes exactly! That's what I'm saying.

But Leo's followers are still refusing: don't you dare to speak unless you do 20 years of enlightenment work. That's preposterous, Leo hasn't even done 10 years.

[tsuki]

5 hours ago, tsuki said:

@Truth Addict Alright, I watched the video.
The quest of metaphysics is enlightenment through modeling. You create such a complete model of reality that you lose your mind, your ability to verbalize it. The models are only meaningful when they are imperfect, relative. The absolute truth has no mouth to speak and no ears to hear it.
There is no point of explaining the perfect model to anybody because there is nobody to hear it, everyone is already 'it'. That is how perfect the model is. The Leo you are seeing on the screen, the one you can talk to, will never be enlightened. He will only speak imperfect models because they are imperfect, because there is someone that does not understand them. It's a peculiar position to be an enlightened metaphysics teacher. That is why the highest teaching is silence and nobody knows the true enlightened masters.

So, is it a belief? No, it's his best shot at explaining nonduality, but the fact that something follows out of it, a point of life, should tell you that it's incomplete and personal. Nothing follows from nonduality, there is no everything is one and therefore something. Absolute truth when spoken always curls back on itself and leaves you dumbfounded.

@Leo Gura could you perhaps comment on this? Do you agree?

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Tell that to Leo and his sincere followers.

Saying that he is blending the map with the territory is also blending the map with the territory. You and @Joseph Maynor seem to not yet have developed vision logic, you are not capable of holding paradoxes and logical contradictions.

http://www.perspectus.se/tjordan/Vision-logic.html

 

This is a problem that cannot be solved by simply talking about it. You inherently lack a way to perceive the world. This is true by the way for a lot of people in this forum.

 

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Also keep in mind that there are many facets and degrees of depth to the Absolute. So not every awakened person has realized all the facets and degrees. So they may speak of one facet but not the other. The problem is called the 5 Blind Men And The Elephant. Very, very few people have seen the entire elephant fully.

Who else besides you Leo shares a similar view to the above language?  Is this insight original with you or what?

[ajasatya]

@Truth Addict this current experience of GOD (ajasatya) hasn't even done 5 years. and yet, it is possible to speak from the Source, as IT desires (unconditionally!)

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What about all the detailed statements you make about Absolute Truth in your videos.  Are those just mental scaffolding, yes or no?  How are all those detailed claims like just pointing to Absolute Truth?  You seem to want to have it both ways.  You want to point and you want to talk about it factually.  I think this is a problem.  It's a case of having your cake and eating it too.  Am I right?

Like I said, some ways of speaking about the Absolute are more "accurate" or "better" than others. This is a relative matter. It's a matter of fit between teacher and student. You might resonant more with the teachings of someone very different from me. I present things in a way which I feel is modern and appeals to ordinary folks on Youtube in the 21st century.

Those detailed claims are still pointers. Like I could make very detailed claims about New York City to you, but none of them are the same as New York City itself. When you reach NYC itself, you'll see that my pointers were "correct" in many ways, but also not at all the same as NYC. Pointers are poetic devices which capture the essence of a thing.

Try to describe the smell of a rose in words. You see the problem? Your words will never be it. But some words are better than others. If I wrote: "a rose smells like rotten fish" << that would be bad poetry. If I wrote: "a rose smells delicate and soft like a baby's bottom" << that's much closer

There is no such thing as literal understanding. All understanding is poetic.

[Shin]

28 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Yall can share with me if you want!

I can't I'm on an intermittent fast

[Truth Addict]

@Scholar Still, the difference is that I am aware of my map, while they're not. That's what I'm pointing them to see.

@ajasatya I could say the same thing about myself, but they wouldn't believe me, cuz I'm not Leo. Remember David Hammond? Almost nobody believed him.

[Rilles]

Just now, Shin said:

I can't I'm on an intermittent fast

 ill save some for you

[Joseph Maynor]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Like I said, some ways of speaking about the Absolute are more "accurate" or "better" than others. This is a relative matter. It's a matter of fit between teacher and student. You might resonant more with the teachings of someone very different from me. I present things in a way which I feel is modern and appeals to ordinary folks on Youtube in the 21st century.

Those detailed claims are still pointers. Like I would make very detailed claims about New York City to you, but none of them are the same as New York City itself. When you reach NYC itself, you'll see that my pointers were "correct" in many ways, but also not at all the same as NYC. Pointers are poetic devices which capture the essence of a thing.

 

Don't you think you go a little overboard with the details in your pointers Leo?  I don't need someone to give me detailed instructions on how to drive a car, I just get in the car and drive the damn thing, no?  I still think you wanna have it both ways -- you wanna have the finger AND the finger pointing to the moon.  You want your scaffolding to be taken factually.  I see that as a trap.  You wanna be "conceptually right" about the Absolute Truth.  Enlightened masters have pointed out this trap for thousands of years.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[abrakamowse]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I will be going to New York City soon...

Nice Leo!!! Let us know when you are coming!

Lol

[ajasatya]

@Truth Addict it's not a matter of people believing you. it doesn't make any difference! it's simply a matter of contemplating what you are and having a direct experience of the purest and highest awe for existence.

Edited May 22, 2019 by ajasatya

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Scholar Still, the difference is that I am aware of my map, while they're not. That's what I'm pointing them to see.

@ajasatya I could say the same thing about myself, but they wouldn't believe me, cuz I'm not Leo. Remember David Hammond? Almost nobody believed him.

As far as I see it you are not aware of the map at all, you are helplessly trapped inside it. You confuse a map in the map for the map.