Humanity Has Failed

[Karmadhi]

On 5/21/2025 at 4:47 PM, Leo Gura said:

Imagine if you were just a peaceful civilian living in Gaza last year. You would hate Hamas. No matter how bad things were before Oct 7th, they are way worse now. It is a mistake to attack a more powerful and shameless opponent in a barbaric way because they will take it out on your people. That's what Israel did. Fair or unfair, it is how psychology and politics works. The bottom line is that when you are weak you are not in a position to dictate terms, and suicide missions will not make you strong.

Imagine you were just a peaceful civilian living in Ukraine 3 years ago. You would hate the Ukranian government. Now matter how bad things were in Ukraine under Russian influence, they are way worse now. It is a mistake to provoke a more powerful and shameless opponent because they will take it out on your people. Thats what Russia did. Fair or unfair, it is how psychology and politics work. The bottom line is that when you are weak you are not in a position to dictate term and suicide alliances will not make your country better off.

See how easy I can flip the script  

It is an analogy to Ukraine for going against Russia and siding with its enemies because they wanted to improve the living conditions for their own. Russia would have never attacked if Maidan didnt happen and they kept Yanakovic or someone similar to him.

Although I support Ukraine (and Palestine too), I think that whole thing was a disaster and they would have been better off becoming another pro Russian state like Belarus, Kazakstan or Mongolia.

Edited May 25 by Karmadhi

[Hojo]

@thedoorsareopen This is the reason, racism.

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Imagine you were just a peaceful civilian living in Ukraine 3 years ago. You would hate the Ukranian government. Now matter how bad things were in Ukraine under Russian influence, they are way worse now.

Not the same thing AT ALL.

You are comparing legit defense of a nation from invasion vs fanatical terrorist lunatics who shoot concert-goers in the head.

That I need to explain this to you shows how misguided your view of things is.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not the same thing AT ALL.

You are comparing legit defense of a nation from invasion vs fanatical terrorist lunatics who shoot concert-goers in the head.

Alright

 

Edited May 25 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

21 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Enough with these conspiracies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-X_9cLDaDY

It aint a conspiracy

Suprisingly the only prominent British politican who actually had a fair stance on this conflict, had the whole media against him, was framed wrongly and eventually left the party. His successor (Starmer) is 180 degrees different on this matter.

These are 2 of many examples.

Edited May 25 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

anatical terrorist lunatics who shoot concert-goers in the head.

Why do people do that? They see them all as the enemy or Israelis? I think many were not Israelis

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Why do people do that? They see them all as the enemy or Israelis? I think many were not Israelis

For the same reason Zionists shoot Palestinian children.

Both sides want ethnic cleansing in their favor.

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not the same thing AT ALL.

You are comparing legit defense of a nation from invasion vs fanatical terrorist lunatics who shoot concert-goers in the head.

That I need to explain this to you shows how misguided your view of things is.

Fighting soldiers maintaining an apartheid and keeping you in a ghetto is legitimate under international law. 

Ukraine has also killed civilians, that doesn’t mean their armed resistance against Russian occupation is illegitimate. Why should Palestinian be any different, their occupation is far more brutal. 
 

The level of dehumanization they have been put under is insane. It’s absurd that its a legitimate political position in liberal countries to believe millions of people of a certain race somehow don’t have a right to fight their oppressors, shouldn’t have equal rights, and it is excusable to kill or punish them collectively as a group. 

Edited May 25 by Raze

[thedoorsareopen]

 

Quote

 It’s absurd that its a legitimate political position in liberal countries to believe millions of people of a certain race somehow don’t have a right to fight their oppressors

Because the Palestinians have been offered many opportunities to take responsibility for their nation and they've refused them all! If you refuse the peace because you're banking on changing the negotiating terms through murder, I don't have much sympathy for you.

I have loved dancing in my life. I saw the video Hamas proudly made of murdering the festival goers at the Nova festival massacre, it's utterly fucking disgusting. What's happened in Gaza is also disgusting, but the middle east was in a period of rising peace before Hamas shattered it with this heinous attack. Israel didn't just wake up one day and decide to start bombing. We have to agree, spontaneous massacres are unacceptable, right? Right?

Either we deal with this as a separate incident, in which case Hamas is clearly and unquestionably in the wrong, or we lean on the "this conflict goes back thousands of years" trope, in which case Palestine's repeated refusals to resolve this situation are fair game to bring up.

And the idea that the real bad guy in all of this is the United States, when the US has been the one historically pushing these two parties to the diplomatic table again and again, is fucking bullshit. We're not racist, we just want to build a society where Arab terror is not constantly being threatened as an option.

I'm so tired of this "poor Palestinians" thing, do they live in the 21st century with the rest of us or not? If so, then draft some documents and take fucking responsibility for building your nation. If they're really going to represent themselves as poor downtrodden indigenous people, when they've been in this situation for so long and refused every chance to gain resolution, self-determination, and dignity, they shouldn't be surprised they're still in this position. 

And before you dismiss things like the Oslo Accords, don't forget that the alternative that Arabs really want is "from the river to the sea." That's the position they think is fair, and claim actual attempts to get both sides to get along like the Oslo Accords are western conspiracies to keep the poor Arab down. No! We just want you to fucking deal with the fact that other societies exist on this planet! Other societies and ethnic groups exist in the middle east, FFS! Once upon a time, it was the Arabs who were the colonizing force in the area, but other native groups exist and have roots there too.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, thedoorsareopen said:

Because the Palestinians have been offered many opportunities to take responsibility for their nation and they've refused them all! If you refuse the peace because you're banking on changing the negotiating terms through murder, I don't have much sympathy for you

No, they weren’t. What was offered at best required letting israel maintain 80% of its illegal settlements which split apart all across their land, annex more vital land, and give israel control of palestines airspace, borders (which again tear apart the state), and have the right to invade at any time. In other words, permanent occupation, not an actual state. 

1 hour ago, thedoorsareopen said:

 

I have loved dancing in my life. I saw the video Hamas proudly made of murdering the festival goers at the Nova festival massacre, it's utterly fucking disgusting. What's happened in Gaza is also disgusting, 

 

 

Oct 7 saw 900 civilians killed. Gaza has see over 50,000. The only reason you could consider those at all comparable is if you think Palestinian life is worth less.

If you want a more accurate comparison, look up deir yassin, Qibya, sabra and shatila, Gaza 2008, Gaza 2014, or the great march of return. Of course all done to Palestinians, and before oct 7 when everyone acts like it all started.
 

1 hour ago, thedoorsareopen said:

 

but the middle east was in a period of rising peace before Hamas shattered it with this heinous attack. Israel didn't just wake up one day and decide to start bombing. We have to agree, spontaneous massacres are unacceptable, right? Right?

 

The “rising peace” was Israel trying to force normalization with Saudi Arabia while refusing to grant Palestinians freedom, even showing a map of the new Middle East where Palestine didn’t exist.

Thats like saying apartheid South Africa had peace. Maybe peace for Israelis, but not for the millions of Palestinians living under a brutal occupation which israel was trying to cement as permanent.

1 hour ago, thedoorsareopen said:

And the idea that the real bad guy in all of this is the United States, when the US has been the one historically pushing these two parties to the diplomatic table again and again, is fucking bullshit. We're not racist, we just want to build a society where Arab terror is not constantly being threatened as an option.

The Arab peace initiative has been on the table for decades, it offers full normalization as long as Israel just follows international law and stops occupying Palestine. It was rejected.

The US has unilaterally blocked a two state solution at the UN every year when, literally every other country in the world votes for it.

The US is in fact the problem.

1 hour ago, thedoorsareopen said:

 

I'm so tired of this "poor Palestinians" thing, do they live in the 21st century with the rest of us or not? If so, then draft some documents and take fucking responsibility for building your nation. If they're really going to represent themselves as poor downtrodden indigenous people, when they've been in this situation for so long and refused every chance to gain resolution, self-determination, and dignity, they shouldn't be surprised they're still in this position. 

 

How exactly can they join us in the “21st century” when Israel kept 2 million under a blockade in Gaza, so brutal that it had 40% unemployment because israel purposefully crushed the economy, and after going on regular bombardments caused the majority to have serious depression and majority of children to have signs of ptsd, in addition to lack of access to clean water, and the other 2 million occupied in the West Bank. With their land systematically stolen by settlers, who regularly go on pogroms against them. By September, 2023 was already the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank since the intifada. This is the “peace” you were referring to.

It doesn’t matter if you’re tired of the “poor Palestinians” thing, they are a occupied population facing brutal repression.

They have not refused every chance to gain a resolution. Go look up the UN votes on a two state solution. This is just Israeli propaganda to justify their repression and subjugation.

1 hour ago, thedoorsareopen said:

And before you dismiss things like the Oslo Accords, don't forget that the alternative that Arabs really want is "from the river to the sea." That's the position they think is fair, and claim actual attempts to get both sides to get along like the Oslo Accords are western conspiracies to keep the poor Arab down. No! We just want you to fucking deal with the fact that other societies exist on this planet! Other societies and ethnic groups exist in the middle east, FFS! Once upon a time, it was the Arabs who were the colonizing force in the area, but other native groups exist and have roots there too.

The Oslo accords were not giving them a state, it was supposed to eventually lead to it, but Netanyahu himself brags about sabotoging it.

“From the river to the sea” is the moral position, ideally you would have all who live from the river to the sea have full equal rights. That was the PLO’s original goal, a equal binational state. But israel brutally fought them until they submitted to the concept of partition.

Even Hamas, though they’d of course prefer complete control, altered their position in 2017 to say they’d accept a long term ceasefire in exchange for a state on the 1967 borders.

The problem is, Israel refuses to give up its occupation of Palestine. They have said multiple times that they are against a Palestinian state.

 Zionism is a colonial ideology, the early zionists themselves referred to it as colonialism. Other ethnic groups exist correct, one such group is Palestinians, who in order to maintain their racial supremacist state Israel keeps brutally occupied without human rights and engages in regular massacres of. It’s also interesting you say it’s a trope to say the conflict goes back thousands of years, yet then bring up Arab colonialism. It also doesn’t go back thousands of years, prior to Zionism Palestinians lived peaceful to with a Jewish and Christian minority. 

Edited May 25 by Raze

[PurpleTree]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

No, they weren’t. What was offered at best required letting israel maintain 80% of its illegal settlements which split apart all across their land, annex more vital land, and give israel control of palestines airspace, borders (which again tear apart the state), and have the right to invade at any time. In other words, permanent occupation, not an actual state. 

Oct 7 saw 900 civilians killed. Gaza has see over 50,000. The only reason you could consider those at all comparable is if you think Palestinian life is worth less.

If you want a more accurate comparison, look up deir yassin, Qibya, sabra and shatila, Gaza 2008, Gaza 2014, or the great march of return. Of course all done to Palestinians, and before oct 7 when everyone acts like it all started.
 

The “rising peace” was Israel trying to force normalization with Saudi Arabia while refusing to grant Palestinians freedom, even showing a map of the new Middle East where Palestine didn’t exist.

Thats like saying apartheid South Africa had peace. Maybe peace for Israelis, but not for the millions of Palestinians living under a brutal occupation which israel was trying to cement as permanent.

The Arab peace initiative has been on the table for decades, it offers full normalization as long as Israel just follows international law and stops occupying Palestine. It was rejected.

The US has unilaterally blocked a two state solution at the UN every year when, literally every other country in the world votes for it.

The US is in fact the problem.

How exactly can they join us in the “21st century” when Israel kept 2 million under a blockade in Gaza, so brutal that it had 40% unemployment because israel purposefully crushed the economy, and after going on regular bombardments caused the majority to have serious depression and majority of children to have signs of ptsd, in addition to lack of access to clean water, and the other 2 million occupied in the West Bank. With their land systematically stolen by settlers, who regularly go on pogroms against them. By September, 2023 was already the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank since the intifada. This is the “peace” you were referring to.

It doesn’t matter if you’re tired of the “poor Palestinians” thing, they are a occupied population facing brutal repression.

They have not refused every chance to gain a resolution. Go look up the UN votes on a two state solution. This is just Israeli propaganda to justify their repression and subjugation.

The Oslo accords were not giving them a state, it was supposed to eventually lead to it, but Netanyahu himself brags about sabotoging it.

“From the river to the sea” is the moral position, ideally you would have all who live from the river to the sea have full equal rights. That was the PLO’s original goal, a equal binational state. But israel brutally fought them until they submitted to the concept of partition.

Even Hamas, though they’d of course prefer complete control, altered their position in 2017 to say they’d accept a long term ceasefire in exchange for a state on the 1967 borders.

The problem is, Israel refuses to give up its occupation of Palestine. They have said multiple times that they are against a Palestinian state.

 Zionism is a colonial ideology, the early zionists themselves referred to it as colonialism. Other ethnic groups exist correct, one such group is Palestinians, who in order to maintain their racial supremacist state Israel keeps brutally occupied without human rights and engages in regular massacres of. It’s also interesting you say it’s a trope to say the conflict goes back thousands of years, yet then bring up Arab colonialism. It also doesn’t go back thousands of years, prior to Zionism Palestinians lived peaceful to with a Jewish and Christian minority. 

GPT

Before the establishment of the modern state of Israel in 1948, the rights and status of Jews and Christians in Palestine varied significantly depending on the ruling power and the historical period. Here’s a concise, era-by-era breakdown:

 

 

 

 

🕌 

1. Under Ottoman Rule (1517–1917)

 

 

Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire, a Muslim-majority empire with an Islamic legal foundation. The empire governed a multi-religious population using the millet system, which granted recognized religious communities a degree of autonomy.

 

 

🔸 Rights of Jews and Christians:

 

 

Dhimmis: Jews and Christians were classified as dhimmis — protected but subordinate non-Muslim subjects.

Allowed to practice religion, run religious schools, and govern personal matters (marriage, divorce) via their own religious leaders.

Paid a special tax (jizya) and had some legal/social restrictions:

Could not bear arms.

Faced limitations on building new places of worship.

Social status was legally inferior to Muslims.

 

 

 

 

🔸 Coexistence:

 

 

Jews and Christians lived in Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed, and elsewhere.

Some local tensions existed but large-scale religious violence was rare compared to Europe at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

🎩 

2. Under British Mandate (1917–1948)

 

 

After World War I, the League of Nations granted Britain control over Palestine. The British Mandate officially aimed to protect the rights of all communities while supporting the establishment of a Jewish national home, as stated in the Balfour Declaration (1917).

 

 

🔸 Legal Status:

 

 

Jews, Christians, and Muslims were equal under British law.

Religious courts handled personal status issues (e.g., marriage, inheritance).

Religious freedom was legally protected.

 

 

 

🔸 Tensions Rise:

 

 

The rise of Zionism and Jewish immigration led to increasing Arab resistance.

Major clashes occurred:

1920, 1921, 1929, 1936–39: Anti-Jewish riots, Arab revolts, British crackdowns.

Arab fear of dispossession and Jewish statehood grew.

Jewish and Arab communities increasingly lived in separate spheres, with parallel institutions (schools, militias, economies).

 

 

 

 

 

 

🕊️ 

Summary of Rights Before Israel:

 

Period

Jews

Christians

Notes

Ottoman

Protected but subordinate; limited civic rights

Same as Jews

No political equality; local religious autonomy

British Mandate

Equal under law; rising political status

Equal under law

Increasing communal tension, especially Jews vs. Arabs

 

 

 

 

📌 Key Point:

 

 

Both Jews and Christians had religious freedom before 1948, but neither had full political or national sovereignty. Their legal and social status depended on the ruling empire, and communal tensions escalated in the British period as nationalism (both Arab and Jewish) surged.

 

 

[Twentyfirst]

To say concert goers is too innocent. Haram things happen at concerts. Disrespectful in the holy land. Imagine having a pure region free of degeneracy and a small minority wants to spread alcohol, drugs, partying, prolonged adolescence, and liberal values. Most people in the region just want to work, study, grow families, and have fun at gatherings. Imagine if I broke into your house so I could find a place to read a book and pray. Now imagine if I broke into your house to open up a crack den and shoot needles in my arm. Both are breaking into your house but one is more disrespectful. Not saying I agree with the actions taken but you have to consider the view points of the indigenous population. The Middle Eastern Jews before 1948 abided by a pure culture so even for Jews this is a new experiment after the Euro Jews came. In the gulf they are starting to allow things like alcohol for example but only for tourists under regulation, it's still extremely punishable for the citizens so it makes sense to desire to punish an occupying force for something that an ordinary citizen would be punished for. It's the Middle East not Europe, and its holy land on top of that. NOBODY should be that confident in breaking every single thousands year old Middle Eastern rule in a celebration miles away from a desperate shoved to the side native population. Think it through and put yourself in their shoes. Imagine your grandmothers, your aunts, your mother, your sister, your daughter all wearing modest clothing and thats all you know your entire life. You don't know anything else. Now imagine some Jew girl shaking her ass in booty shorts in your face and twerking and running from man to man getting sprayed all over her face at a music festival lmao

Edited May 25 by Twentyfirst

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

For the same reason Zionists shoot Palestinian children.

Both sides want ethnic cleansing in their favor.

So you finally agree to both sides being  equally horrible

Before you made it clear that Hamas was worse  

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Raze said:

Fighting soldiers maintaining an apartheid and keeping you in a ghetto is legitimate under international law. 

Ukraine has also killed civilians, that doesn’t mean their armed resistance against Russian occupation is illegitimate. Why should Palestinian be any different, their occupation is far more brutal. 
 

The level of dehumanization they have been put under is insane. It’s absurd that its a legitimate political position in liberal countries to believe millions of people of a certain race somehow don’t have a right to fight their oppressors, shouldn’t have equal rights, and it is excusable to kill or punish them collectively as a group. 

The sad truth is that Russia is an adversary to the West and Israel is an ally

Therefore when Russia does something bad it will magnified a lot and when Israel does something bad it will be diminished

That is how biases work

The West has an insane pro Israel anti Russian bias due to historical alliances and economic interests

 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

So you finally agree to both sides being  equally horrible

Before you made it clear that Hamas was worse  

So you are saying here that European coalition and US army that the war they commit harm many thousands of civilians are equally horrible to hamas? 

Zionists, in how this word is interpreted here, are at most two sectors in our society.

When 3000 Israeli soldiers will deliberately enter a Palestinian territories and shoot whoever they see then it will be "equal". Until then, it is FAR from being equal. 

But still unjustified and bad.

I thought you are honest but I see you just want to bit Israelis as bad as you can.

Edited May 25 by Nivsch

[zazen]

There’s a distinction to be made between contextual violence and fanatical violence.

Contextual violence is localized, geopolitical, reality based = resistance

Fanatical violence is usually globalised, political in an absolutist sense, ideological based = terrorism

Hamas and Hezbollah get lumped in with the fanatical kind like ISIS and Al Qaeda when they are localized reactions to geopolitical injustices. They use terrorist tactics but aren’t really defined by terrorism in their totality.

This is why Iran and co are called the “axis of resistance” - because they are resisting something. ISIS and Al-Qaeda start off by resisting something (Western occupation - intervention) but mutate to domination. Irans support isn’t fanatical but contextual - although fanatical tactics are deployed. The actual sponsor of terrorism was a US backed ally who exported a radical version of Islam - Saudi Arabia, which they are now trying to counter.

Those resistance groups have a certain limit to them based in reality - their geopolitical locality. Actual terrorist groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda are limitless in their aspirations - they go for ideological purity and domination, not just geopolitical justice and liberation.

The thing is that the fanatical usually also comes from the contextual. When resistance to (contextual or colonial) occupation and suppression is crushed - that resistance mutates into fanatical terrorism due to desperation and resentment.

The reason that violence then goes global is because those crushing their resistance are global - in the Middle East’s case that would be the West and the US. The fight is taken to where they are at - but in a fanatical and violent manner. It becomes globalized when that localized resistance is crushed by those not local to it.

Western foreign policy created the foreign policy of terrorism as its consequence and backlash. This can be geopolitically traced. A domestic struggle (jihad) becomes a foreign one, because foreigners are involved. Local geopolitical struggles who would otherwise remain domestic and contextual become global and fanatical.

The remaining local struggles conveniently get gaslit and lumped in with the global fanatical ones.

 

Edited May 25 by zazen

[lina]

There is a serious issue in the way this conflict is being discussed lately, and it’s honestly alarming.

Short replies that lack context, empathy, or even the basic human acknowledgement of the unimaginable pain Palestinians are experiencing right now reveal one of two things:

1. Rationalization used to cover a deep and persistent Western bias.

2. A possible honest attempt that explains why Palestinians cannot win, due to the current state of global politics, any form of resistance is doomed to fail and risks Palestinians survival and therefore any resistance is framed as 'bad' and irresponsible leadership from a political strategic point of view.

-- 

If someone still falls into category one, then honestly, there’s no point in debating anymore. The world has already begun to awaken to the truth of Israel’s history and actions, and no amount of justification works anymore—sorry.

But if someone aligns with category two, then yes, we can understand the geopolitical argument: that the current balance of power makes Palestinian resistance inefficient and dangerous.

However, offering that analysis without first acknowledging the rage, pain, and profound injustice Palestinians have lived through and their fundamental right to resist ends up reinforcing the dominant power narrative. It strips them of their humanity under the guise of realism. And that’s not transcendance. 

Wasn't that what was discussed before? SD stage yellow without integrated stage green is nothing but a more evolved stage orange.

If you haven’t cried for Palestinians, felt their pain, their rage and the brutal occupation… And if you haven’t cried for the Jewish people during the Holocaust, grieved their history, their suffering, their fear… Then you cannot pretend to give opinion that seems serious or offers a more "conscious" point of view.

Edited May 25 by lina

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

So you are saying here that European coalition and US army that the war they commit harm many thousands of civilians are equally horrible to hamas? 

The Israeli army has admitted over 80% of casualties are civilian. 

https://www.ha-makom.co.il/1058990-2/

This is a ratio of 4.5 civilians per 1 combatant. For comparison for the US in Iraq and Afghanistan it was 2-3 combatants per 1 civilian.  And on Oct 7 it was 2.1 civilians per 1 combatant. 
 

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

 

When 3000 Israeli soldiers will deliberately enter a Palestinian territories and shoot whoever they see then it will be "equal". Until then, it is FAR from being equal. 

they’ve done that repeatedly in the past

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Yunis_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Rafah_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Also, this is the account from IDF soldiers on the current war

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-18/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-soldiers-expose-arbitrary-killings-and-rampant-lawlessness-in-gazas-netzarim-corridor/00000193-da7f-de86-a9f3-fefff2e50000
 

Quote

"One time, guards spotted someone approaching from the south. We responded as if it was a large militant raid. We took positions and just opened fire. I'm talking about dozens of bullets, maybe more. For about a minute or two, we just kept shooting at the body. People around me were shooting and laughing."

But the incident didn't end there. "We approached the blood-covered body, photographed it, and took the phone. He was just a boy, maybe 16." An intelligence officer collected the items, and hours later, the fighters learned the boy wasn't a Hamas operative – but just a civilian. 

"That evening, our battalion commander congratulated us for killing a terrorist, saying he hoped we'd kill ten more tomorrow," the fighter adds. "When someone pointed out he was unarmed and looked like a civilian, everyone shouted him down. The commander said: 'Anyone crossing the line is a terrorist, no exceptions, no civilians. Everyone's a terrorist.' This deeply troubled me – did I leave my home to sleep in a mouse-infested building for this? To shoot unarmed people?" 

Similar incidents continue to surface. An officer in Division 252's command recalls when the IDF spokesperson announced their forces had killed over 200 militants. "Standard procedure requires photographing bodies and collecting details when possible, then sending evidence to intelligence to verify militant status or at least confirm they were killed by the IDF," he explains. "Of those 200 casualties, only ten were confirmed as known Hamas operatives. Yet no one questioned the public announcement about killing hundreds of militants."

 

[Nivsch]

@Raze The fact you mention 1950s were the mantality and norms were so different then (jungle, survival, less liberal and humanism) and also mention this ratio in an attack of hamas when its intention was SO different than IDF just shows the deep flaws in your current meesage.

Edited May 25 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, lina said:

There is a serious issue in the way this conflict is being discussed lately, and it’s honestly alarming.

Short replies that lack context, empathy, or even the basic human acknowledgement of the unimaginable pain Palestinians are experiencing right now reveal one of two things:

1. Rationalization used to cover a deep and persistent Western bias.

2. A possible honest attempt that explains why Palestinians cannot win, due to the current state of global politics, any form of resistance is doomed to fail and risks Palestinians survival and therefore any resistance is framed as 'bad' and irresponsible leadership from a political strategic point of view.

-- 

If someone still falls into category one, then honestly, there’s no point in debating anymore. The world has already begun to awaken to the truth of Israel’s history and actions, and no amount of justification works anymore—sorry.

But if someone aligns with category two, then yes, we can understand the geopolitical argument: that the current balance of power makes Palestinian resistance inefficient and dangerous.

However, offering that analysis without first acknowledging the rage, pain, and profound injustice Palestinians have lived through and their fundamental right to resist ends up reinforcing the dominant power narrative. It strips them of their humanity under the guise of realism. And that’s not transcendance. 

Wasn't that what was discussed before? SD stage yellow without integrated stage green is nothing but a more evolved stage orange.

If you haven’t cried for Palestinians, felt their pain, their rage and the brutal occupation… And if you haven’t cried for the Jewish people during the Holocaust, grieved their history, their suffering, their fear… Then you cannot pretend to give opinion that seems serious or offers a more "conscious" point of view.

It's pretty much #2.

We never really get past #1 and it creates a never ending cycle. If you believe that the Jews and Israelis are responsible for the plight of the Palestinians, then the Jews and Israelis are also the ones who can end it. If all the discourse is about how terrible Israel and the Jews are, nothing is going to change. When Jews hear all of this demonization, they don't feel the plight of the Palestinians. They themselves feel threatened and fight back. We hear "from the river to the sea", "one-state" solution and all of that.

The discourse never reaches any other direction. You don't see many conversations actually discussing two state solution possibilities in the year 2025. It's all discussions about who is more at fault, Israel is the devil, Palestinians are terrorists, human shields, yada yada. 

If you want those who can actually change things to change things, start with "ok, Israel is here to stay. Let's try to end the plight of the Palestinians, what can we do to enact a two state solution and take Bibi out of power?" 

If you started there, you'd probably have a lot more support and you may see tides shift.

I'm a believer that when the quote on quote "more developed" side goes to extremes, the majority falls back to shadow ideologies. This is how leaders like Trump get elected. The "woke left" who always cries victim about minorities etc but leaves out the middle class and regular white people. Who demonizes them, etc. It doesn't matter if they make good points. They aren't meeting people where they are and losing them.