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@Breakingthewall Yes, nothingness doesn’t exist. It’s non existence. Like you just explained it’s not a thing. The problem is the beginning you said nothingness cannot exist without existence. It doesn’t exist anyway. You’re trying to make nothingness out to be a thing when it’s not. There’s empty space, and then there’s existence, and that’s al within nothingness.

nothingness without existence does not exist. Imagine that they give you anesthesia and they wake you up half an hour later, or a million years later, and for you not a second has passed. that interval was nonexistence. a nonexistent interval. The nothing you speak of has no space or time, but it exists, otherwise you would not be able to perceive it. go to nothing more times (although it is scary, at least for me), until you see that it is everything, infinity, that is the mystery (some who say they understand, I suppose it is possible)

@peanutspathtotruth And again, its not us saying the same thing but disagreeing. They’re saying 2+2=5 and I’m saying 2+2=4. They’re saying god is nothingness and I’m saying its not, by definition or experience. God is ultimate reality, so it’s a thing. Meaning within nothingness and not the same thing. If nothingness was creating it wouldn’t be nothingness.

@Breakingthewall Like I just explained, if you’re perceiving it then it’s just space. I didn’t say empty existence is nothingness, I just explained empty space isn’t true nothingness. You say total existence, so if you’re talking about something that exists, it’s not nothingness. It’s called the stateless state for a reason. Like I wrote an essay explaining space isn’t nothingness and you just tried to say I said space is nothingness lol

@peanutspathtotruth No, I have to defend my point when someone is misconstruing what I’m saying. My point won’t get across if I don’t. You can’t let someone punch you in the face and not defend yourself. They’re not saying the same thing I am, they’re saying god is nothingness and I’m explaining why by definition that’s not true. I can’t just let someone shut down my point and push their own and just agree.

@WelcometoReality People argue if nothingness created everything or if everything created itself. But there’s no argument that nothingness is creating anything, because that would make it a thing, even if it’s empty space.

Yes but in that realization of nothingness, in which you are not even there, you (not you, the void) still are. It is without any attributes, totally empty. It is a sensation that has made me vomit. If not, it would be as if they gave you propofol, a timeskip. the point is that what I am seeing now, my phone on which I write, my room, are nothingness appearing to be something, but they are just a form in nothingness, that is, nothing creates all this. in fact, it creates all that is infinitely possible by the fact that it is. then it is not nothing, since it is something, you might say. Well, that's what I think, nothing does not exist since it always is, existence. you can perceive an empty existence, which you call nothing, or a total existence, which you call god, but both are the same

@WelcometoReality And empty space isn’t nothingness, so even if empty space was creating everything it still exists and has to be within nothingness. I was wrong to say emptiness instead of nothingness.

@WelcometoReality Well people saying god is nothingness are wrong because that’s simply not the definition. There’s no argument. Nothingness isn’t creating anything because then that would make it a thing. God is god nothingness is nothingness.

@Breakingthewall People tend to think of say, a black hole and say that there’s nothing within it, when really it’s just empty space. Same with cessation. When I say emptiness or nothingness, I mean TRUE nothingness. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word emptiness, but true nothingness has to be the deepest realization, otherwise it’s something and that’s not it. It’s not even an experience when you truly realize nothingness.

@Breakingthewall Nothingness isn’t infinite or a creator. Nothingness is nonexistent, meaning it’s not even space. Infinite means going on and on forever, nothingness isn’t that, otherwise it would be a thing. Space can go on and on forever, but space isn’t the same thing as nothingness.

@Breakingthewall Again, emptiness is emptiness. God and infinity by definition are a thing. God is what’s creating everything and infinity is the existence that goes on and on that god is creating, by definition. So they’re both a thing, if they exist, meaning they have to be within nothingness. And nothingness is nothingness, it’s not creating anything because then that would make it a thing. Saying nothing is god is changing the definition of nothing. God is EVERYTHING, and anything that exists is within nothingness, meaning god is within nothingness. Even if reality goes on and on forever, it has to be within nothingness.

@BenG It happened during manic episodes. People usually get that with psychedelics or meditation but I guess God wanted something different in my case. ? Yes, it was a big emotional turmoil because I was raised in religious family but always prefered science for the explanation of everything. So I made a full circle but I didn't expect that God would be me. ? I will still need one more episode to directly realise nothingness, for now I only understand it conceptualy. ?

I’ll have to try this OP! I had a similar realization by looking into my own eyes in a mirror, like an inch away from the mirror, on shrooms. All of a sudden, I realized that the person in the mirror was just looking at nothingness—which was me. It was actually incredible shocking to realize I was the ‘void’ that allowed a mirrored image to think I was looking into a mirror ? Like it made me panic for a quick second when the “shift” happened and I wasn’t there. That was the damn truth.

Spiritual factions emphasize either God or nothingness and then they go to war with each other over which aspect is the right one. I'm glad we can keep traditions alive here. ?

I'm willing but maybe not able ha ha. All this talk of arising and passing away, coming from and going to, puts me into the frame of time, space, processes unfolding etc. Duality and thought, in fact. But from the perspective of the timeless and spaceless (which isn't a perspective but I'm calling it that for convenience), there's just a singularity of infinite nothingness. I don't think (but could be wrong), there's a movement from the timeless into time, from nothing into appearance. Can't these be the same already, but it depends on my state of mind how I'm seeing it. It's the mind which moves, not the flag in the wind (to misquote the Zen story lol). Not sure if I've missed your points, this is all hard to articulate and communicate

@Adamq8 Thank you. You said yourself “there is NOTHING outside of god” meaning emptiness haha. But it’s all good now. My point is enlightenment is that nothingness.

I haven't experienced God, nothingness, or any mystical states so I can't say anything about the topic but I do "feel" that OP is half right. I don't know that's how I feel right now. ?‍♂️

I've heard this before, Sadhguru sayed also that the creator is not the end, nothingness goes beyond the creator even. But I still struggle to understand it fully. I've heard mooji say things like, everything comes from consciousness and there's is something beyond consciousness, absolute nothingness or smth. It's hard to wrap my mind around it honestly. It's like consciousness itself is appearing in something that is unspeakable. I share the same view also. I like what you're saying on this thread. Regards ?

And you WERE god but you are no longer. Once you, or god fragmented itself into infinity, it went on forever, making separations absolute. You may experience yourself as god as one being infinite love again, but there will always be something separate now. Otherwise it wouldn’t be infinite. And the ultimate realization is realizing the true emptiness that all of that was born into. Not just the nothingness within everything.

By the way, when I say emptiness I don’t mean the nothingness and everything god is simultaneously, that’s just empty space or blankness. I mean TRUE emptiness. God and infinity AND nothing ness have to be within something. And that something is the true emptiness, the deepest awakening. The reason they say “stateless-state” is not because they’re referring to the state of nothingness. No, true enlightenment really isn’t a state AT ALL. You will never awaken for sure unless you realize this, and humble yourself enough to know what enlightened people are truly talking about. It can be no other way, that infinity came from this. It is the deepest awakening, and you’ll know it. When you keep having awakenings deeper than before and infinitely deepest, it’s not the deepest awakening. God is within the deepest truth. And I temporarily realized it.

Nothingness ultimately, I suspect. I don't know if it was something even possible to misinterpret or hallucinate... Your eyes can't see your eyes (without a mirror of course). But what if your eyes were imaginary and so far back that any thing that's a thing AT ALL is in front. ANY thing. Then wtf is that if ALLLLL things are always in front? Must be nothing... Must be... Because any possible conceivable thing is guaranteed to be in front of this.

@Nahm I had various strong DMT trips where certain things were revealed to me. For example the loss of categorization of things and understanding of everything as "existence". There is 0% chance I would have any interest in this at all, but my own direct experience pointed me to Advaita Vedanta (the first thing I found when Googling for monist religions following the experience). I then read and found things which reinforced to me certain things which I viewed through the lens of the experience(s) I had. My actual experience has always reflected Advaita Vedanta exactly, not so much Solipsism except in bad trips but even then it wasn't that type of Solipsism. Very odd that in that first trip, I hallucinated a Hindu goddess (some blue figure with a forehead dot) on the comedown... I have also hallucinated people in prayer with their legs crossed etc. Not sure why I saw those things. My own experience has not been like Buddhist teachings so much, except Taoism. You can't actually refer to pure consciousness unless you call it I or me or you or consciousness. When I was pulled back very far away from objects, I knew myself to be nothing. All of me was removed from me. What is left, you would call it "I" because it IS what we fundamentally are. Not a "me" anymore. In those states Solipsism did not really occur to me. I never came away from any trip thinking everyone else is a cardboard cutout acting for my amusement. I felt unity with everything like an embrace, a "WE" are everything is how it felt... It never felt to deny the essence of others, only their material appearance and spatial physical separation. It never denied the sense of others existing as alter egos of what I fundamentally am (me is also an alter ego). It could feel lonely as others were like myself talking to myself. But it never occurred that those alter egos were basically wooden planks. If Leo thinks I am just a wooden plank I know for a fact he is wrong. Rupert Spira is able to verbalize exactly what I experienced very concisely. Leo is able to acknowledge nothingness which is also something I knew myself to be. I have not ever heard anyone else discuss nothingness. Just no-thing, which is not like what I experienced when I felt to be made of nothingness.

I think you are referring to nothing when you say "I", but that is different from not being. It seems to me that nothingness is the core of existence itself.

Because you're making a concession to some sort of agreed upon thing to discuss sobriety to begin with... We have a sort of agreed upon idea of what sober means and are talking in reference to what that idea is agreed to represent. Frank is very very very far from that. If everyone was like Frank, that would be called sobriety. It has NOTHING to do with states of consciousness, nothingness is always the same. What you mean is the contents of mind, what you mean by states of consciousness is just content of mind. And that differs.