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@Zeroguy Very good! Altough i would say, More than nothingness tricking us, is just that we trick ourselves. 😊 But dont worry, There is indeed a clarity to arrive.

God is Infinite Love amongst other infinite things.I experienced God/Infinite Love but I died from experience now I transcended all facets of awakening by realising it's just product of Nothingness.Nothignrss tricks us into becoming all these things and creates intense euphoria just so that we keep getting invested in dreaming forever.

nothingness

It literally does come from a vacuum. Reality manifests it's infinite expressions through extracting it from nothingness (which is pure infinity). This is the only way you can explain higher complexity and novel information generation as demonstrated by evolution and the human mind. Now, novel information is of course necessarily contextualized within the given system in which it expresses itself. Given a physical system, any form of complexity naturally will be physical. But that does not mean that novel information was not created. Each limited set of existence contains a near infinite amount of possible configurations. How to arrive at particular complexities is achieved through interfacing with nothingness through free will. To ask something like "Can you create something truly outside of this world?" would be like asking if you can find a physical expression which is not physical. The question makes no sense and demonstrates a misunderstanding of the nature of infinity and creation.

@Dodo In my eyes crypto is bullshit. You’re not creating value in the world just making bets on artificial nothingness I would extend that to stock trading more generally which is mostly bs too. I have a very low approval of the whole trading game. It’s all bullshit. Share prices are at an all time high and it has nothing to do with the actual real world economy but the people fawn over it

I was smoking weed.I experienced cessation with Infinite Love.Then I experienced complete cessation and realised Infinite Love is product of cessation state.When this dreams ends I will experience Infinite Love and new dream will appear.I am nothingness before all facets .I was a bit sad but I am ok now with cessation.

It's a nothingness that is no-thing.

If nothingness produces something, then it's not nothingness

Niroda-style cessations going blank from concentrative meditation in the waking state and then "rebooting": No. I didn't push the concentrative path/Jhanas path much, Mahamudra & Dzogchen -practice is different. On that path, these states don't need to happen, nor are they considered that important as in Theravada. I have experienced the causal states from the states & transitions during the sleep cycle. "Seeing" the rotation of waking/sleep/dream, the causal states that can show along that rotation, lucid dreams, and also the "Reality" of deep sleep. Which is exactly what is supposed to happen according to the tradition when Awareness has become strong/trained enough in the waking state that it continues in some forms into the sleep-phase, and stays during the state-changes in sleep/dream/waking which then "roll by" "before" ones True eternal unchanging Infinite Being. As a sidenote: In the Mahamudra-system there is the so called Nondissolution-Experience that opens up the boundless and eternal/timeless/always here/impersonal nature of Infinite Mind/Infinite Being and how everything emerges from "THAT", including all thought/feeling-arisings, which arise in an impersonal clockwork-like process ripening/arising from the groundless ground of Being, emerging fully formed and then being elaborated as a second step so slowly that one wonders at some point how that could have hypnotized earlier. And how time is constructed. Which I experienced as predicted in this system at the point where its supposed to happen. Which is a very valueable experience, since it shows how the separate-self, time, basically everything is constructed and emerging. Not only when "rebooting" from cessation, but in real/daily life. And that then gets stabilized with further practice. Brown, PotgW: "Though comparable in profundity to the Theravada dissolution experience, the Mahayana experience of nondissolution or unelaboration is very different, both experientially and philosophically, which is why the commentators are careful to refute the nihilistic dissolution position" "Once the practitioner gets some sense of emptiness (mere appearance,WbtR) pervading the interconnectedness of all times and realms, it becomes easier to persist with a continuous focus on emptiness when leaving the samadhi state and reentering ordinary daily experience.'" I assume that if I trained for some time in hardcore concentrative meditation that cessation-states become accessible in the waking state. I know the techniques that have to be practiced to achieve that. Yet, there seems to be a genetic/karmic/whatever factor if the long form of cessations is accessible (Niroda) or not. But I don't need these states since I have accessed the experiences/states and insights they give from other ways, as described above. And I don't need concentrative meditation to keep/access Infinite Nondual Being. Jhanas 1-7 are given anyways at that point, since its hard to "get" Infinite Space or Infinite Consciousness or Nothingness when that is already the case before any meditation during daily life. Jhana 8 (neither perception nor non-perception) / 9 (Cessation and/or Niroda) need "induction" via concentrative meditation.

Mostly. There are different versions of what Wilber calls Causal States. Cessation/Nirodha: Totally appearanceless "film-break" like cessation. Timeless/always here/Nothingness nature emphasized. Time needs appearance/objects/"movement"/change, no appearance/objects is timeless/always here. These states also clearly show that if nothing arises there is no self-consciousness. ( https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=pistol&author=Water by the River , thx Benthino for the water pistol). Pure Infinite Awareness/Being with the potential of sentience, but not self-consciousness. That comes later. Which is pretty much a shocker, since it shows that any form of self-consciousness ego/separate-self is a) arising/appearing b) temporary c) True YOU is always "there", existence itself. Even if nothing arises/appears. That empties out the remnants of the separate-self/ego as appearing/constructed and removes the remaining separate-self-identity pretty effectively when coming out of cessation. Nirodha is the big/longer brother of cessation. Causal states with awareness (Infinite (timeless) Darkness suffused with light): Then there are causal states that are infinite/timeless, but self-aware. For example what Tibetan called the Clear Light state (Tummo, Bardo, Near Death). For example something a Neurologist (who had an NDE) for example described as "Infinite Darkness suffused with light". These states can also be experienced passing from dreaming to causal states to dreaming to waking up. One can have these states also with psychedelics, see Chris Bache Diamonds from Heaven. Aware Deep Sleep: Then there is Deep Sleep as not loosing awareness (and hence timeless, no duration experienced) as described by Thisdell, above. Causal States eyes open. And then you have totally empty impersonal states with no separate self arising WHILE the visual field appears. These are also linked by some to Nirvikalpa since there is no separate-ego-anything left, its the totally impersonal Totality/Reality arising by Itself. That is why Ken Wilber called the total empty/flat-lining state (EEG) some kind of Nirvikalpa "eyes-open". These are the true nondual IMPERSONAL states of Enlightenment. Only when having passed these causal states is it truly nondual impersonal Enlightenment/Infinite Impersonal Being. Before that, it is a Unity with the Infinite Nondual Field, and the character/ego hijacking that experience and interpreting it. Very common with certain substances, and easily confused with the final outcome of the total transcendence of the ego/separate-self purified by the experience of these totally empty states (hey, "I" wasn't there, what am I really? For sure not that temporarily appearing character-gig, because that wasn't there. And what I really am has to be the case always, even if there is no self-consciousness or consciousness OF anything at all, aka cessation or deep unaware sleep. That paves the way to true impersonal Enlightenment, realizing ones identity truly is this Infinite Nothingness which can never be any arising/appearance at all. The Infinite Absolute Being/Reality beyond any expierence/arising, timeless and eternal). And the Awareness of that Infinite Reality/Being can also be kept alive if the character reappears, the EEG shows something again. But then, this character/personality has a similiar status as for example your car: It appears in your Infinite Being/visual field, you look "out from it" while driving, but most definitely you are not (only) your car, but the whole appearing show/Infinite Being/Infinite Existing, the screen and the appearing show. Wilber Nirvikalpa eyes open/eyes closed: But the term Nirvikalpa has been used for millenia, so you can for sure find cases where its used for cessation/Nirodha and eyes open causal impersonal states, deep sleep, and anything in between. What is more important is what these causal states really can do: Kill the ego/separate-self-arising-illusions for good, because they show that these are temporary arising illusion-clouds, nothing more. Not by having these a few times, aber after experiencing them often and coming out of them and seeing the ego reassemble itself in real-time often enough can even get the hardest ego-illusions to wonder about their "reality". See below. When training via concentration meditation, it is easier to reach Cessation than reaching True Nondual Enlightenment while the visual field still appears. Because the mechanism of the ego-cloud-separation-arisings is not yet fully transcended. The mere appearance character, the Infinite impersonal field, the eternal/timeless background-nature of True Being is not yet reached while the visual field is there/daily life. That comes later. Later developed forms of Buddhism (Zen, Mahayana, Tibetan Buddhism, aka Mahamudra/Dzogchen) directly aim for the Nondual Realization. They know cessation states and achieve them, but don't value these as ultimate goal. Which makes sense, because if one can enter Nirvana/Nirvikalpha on command, its nice then, and later on the still well and alive ego and its cycles of contraction/suffering kill all the oh so nice Nirvana again. But shutting the whole enchilada including the ego down in causal states is a very good tool. Not necessary, but very useful. These statements are in line with the statements and experiences of modern Theravada-teachers and realizers like Ingram, Yang, Burbea, Taft, Thisdell and so on. And that is why I prefer Mahamudra/Dzogchen (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). More on that below in the footnote 1. The relations of these states get clear once the timless Absolute Reality/Being is intuited as always here. Deep Sleep is so to say is always right here. Since what you really are is always right here, as it is in deep sleep. Infinite eternal Consciousness/Being which is totally empty and impersonal if no separate-self illusion arises. The tree watching itself, fully aware of its temporaray/passing/illusory nature. And that which is always the case, eternally so, True Being, fully understands itself then. Because there exists nothing else that could understand itself besides THIS of which nothing can be said, only pointed towards. So what is it that reads these words right here, right now? What is IT/You truly? Starting out to write a short answer answer, ending up with a Filibustero. Oh well, maybe its helpful for some. Selling Causal States as the final coup de grace for the separate self-character-gig/ego by The River Ok, it had to be coming: WtbtR now with footnotes. Guess not for the faint of hearted. Footnote 1: The original "Buddhas" Enlightenment-doctrine was Cessation/Causal-based, not Full Nondual (impersonal) Enlightenment in daily life. The original Buddhas Enlightenment was Cessation/Causal-based (Nirvana-based, "Nirvana separate from Samsara"). Which is still a conditioned state, bringing a lot of liberation from grasping, but not fully and in daily life. Separate-Self/Ego not fully transcended/dead in daily life. The breakthrough to True (impersonal) Nondual Realization in official doctrine came later with Nagarjuna and Madhymaka/Middle Path: True Nondual impersonal Enlightenment which could be sustained in daily life/with visual field. And while Madhyamaka tended to not say anything at all about the Absolute (neti neti, no concepts can be applied for the Absolute, which technically is correct), later forms of Buddhisms like Yogachara said that (in truly enlightened impersonal nondual states) Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Being IS an expression of the true state of things, and everything appearing is mere appearance (or "imagined"). See for example "Consciousness only school", for example Huang Po's Universal Mind, or the (very humble) Supreme Source "I am the teacher, pure and total consciousness, whence everything manifests. Pure and total consciousness is the supreme source, it has created the Buddhas of the three times, from it have arisen the beings of the three worlds and the whole animate and inanimate universe". God-Realization (TM) approved. Forms of Buddhism stemming from the original buddhist teachings (causal teachings, sometimes called Hinayana school, which doesn't exist anymore), like for example Theravada/Thai Buddhism Forest Tradition (and Ingram/Yang/Burbea/Taft) mainly trace themselves from these forms (although all are adding some form of Dzogchen and similiar stuff), don't stem from the the Mahayana Revolution of Middle Way/Madhyamaka/Nagarjuna), and YET end up at Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation. And for sure in the original Buddhism some realized Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation, but that didn't find its way into the official doctrine until much later. And that (besides that the original Buddha probably didn't exist because its the same story Jainism tells about its founder) makes me smile when there "Buddhism"-trashing. Its like trashing "religion". Which kind of religion? Polytheism? Ancestor-cult? Monotheism? Polytheism? Who cares, lets trash the rodents... So, now WbtR made it: Neither "Buddhist" like him anymore, nor the no-rodent crowd. Guess its "Viel Feind, viel Ehr!". Something we Germans are quite talented in. Oh well...

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/let-s-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/throwing-my-hat-in-the-jhana-ring and some more stuff from Roger Thisdell: https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/maintaining-awareness-during-deep-sleep-how-to and: Cessation is a large focus of Theravada/Early Buddhism, helping on the path to Enligthenment. But it is not (yet) Full Enlightenment, see for example modern voices of Theravada like Ingram (Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha)/Frank Yang/Thisdell.They state the same. In Mahayana Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana, this dissolution/cessation experience is considered valueable, but not more. Not the final goal. Experiencing Absolute Reality/Infinite Impersonal Being WHILE visual appearances and the mindstream arises as Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality is considered the Final Enlightenment. Because Ultimate Reality has to be constant, always right here. If its not accessible, clouds of separation are still arising which are not seen through. Cessation= Absolute Reality with no arising/appearance/anything at all, hence timeless, but also not self-consciousness (since that is an arising too). Helps seeing the illusion/separation-layers arising on the "reboot" while getting out of the cessation/Pure Nothingness, but does not necessarily destroy all the clouds causing duality. Normally it doesn't do that, that is why it takes lots of cessations on the Theravada path. No cessations are necessary for Enlightenment, it can also happen without them. In Mahamudra, instead of the Dissolution experience of cessation, the so-called "Non-dissolution" experience, or the insight the Infinite Mind/Being is timeless/eternal and boundless (but not yet fully impersonal) is considered of equal or even higher importance. Since that paves the way for the constant realization of Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality while the visual field arises, or Full Enlightenment. It is a difficult topic, needing a lot of reference meditation-experiences in order to start to intuit the differences. Maybe this is helpful for some.

Imagine you're the surface of the ocean, from outside the ocean, one can observe waves, but from the perspective of the ocean, there is only one surface, no matter the local shape, from the absolute point of view, it's perfectly level. It's kinda strange, cause the surface of a sphere is really level from its own point of view and dimension, it takes a whole other dimension to loop it around and see a distortion. All this to say, when you are everything and everyone and your ego also, you are not alone, even though you're a singular thing overall, but nothingness has no room for judgements and infinity has room for all contradictory judgements simultaneously rendering them arbitrary. Now on another layer, you might imply that you're the singular source of your experience, that you are an entity who creates others but is itself objective, but that doesn't really make sense since you are a creation of yourself also, including the distinction, including your mental ideas, including the notion of individuality and collective, to even say you are 1 is really an arbitrary focus since you are 0 and ∞ also, you are whole. And as long as you believe yourself to be an absolute entity simulating reality, you hold that distinction, but its an arbitrary one, you dissolved the notion of others but not that of self, now you believe that there are others and simultaneously that they don't exist, but if you actually believed there were no others, then you couldn't access that as a concept to feel lonely through.

Yes. What we share is Nothingness-Awareness (God) It makes total sense that God would create the limitation of not being able to have “other” beings expereince, just like God created the limitation that you can’t manipulate “physical” reality (even though it’s all made of imagination) don’t underestimate the power of Gods mind. No matter how many psychedelics you take (contrary to what Leo has said) you can’t imagine 1 million in your bank account and it actually happens in reality. Leos downfall happened after his 30 day 5MEO retreat. He took his psychedelic trips as Truth, my theory is these trips were showing him the power of Gods mind but not actually the Truth

@Breakingthewall My current contemplation leads to the idea of "beliefs shape reality" but they're an experiential reality that has to be overridden by conscious focus and awareness itself. If it turns out to be true, it would explain basically everything and all the psychedelic, meditative, non-dual and other states, since as they dissolve all conditioning, reality becomes non-dual. What I want to know is if your experiential environment dissolves into nothingness. Also, what does nothingness feel like? I'll be accessing it myself soon with a specific focus on psychedelics, but to experientially let go is still an effortful process for me, since I'd freak out if in a normal state of mind, my environment just morphed away, hence creating a feedback loop of reinforcing resistance materializing it anew. But I can work on that. I agree that direct experience is key. But I've also been doing a lot of shadow work, since my subconscious keeps feeding me past ideas that seem to still be saved somewhere as ripples since they're consistently entering my awareness. But I'm learning to let go and tune out.

Is Solipsism true / Is experience all there is How does some specific form arise from Nothingness Is consciousness existence itself or is consciousness created by the brain If there is an outside material universe, why am I me and not someone else in this universe Why do I have my point of view and not somebody elses / Why was I born as me specifically If all atoms of a creature get replaced in the exact way, will it still be the same creature If I get beamed from one place to another, will I still be me How does consciousness get lower and higher Why are nightdreams sometimes so real What is after death / Is immortality real How can 5 Meo be so powerfull How conscious can an AI be Will physical laws be forever Is God and Love the same Whats the best way to live Is true knowledge possible How does enlightment feel like Can human limits be transcended What is the nature of time and space What is the origin and destiny of the universe Are there parallel worlds or multiverses or realities Is there a essence or substance that underlies existence Are quantum mechanics deterministic or probabilistic What is beyond the observable universe What is the fate of the universe

No because I didn't derive that from literature. I'm speaking from some of my own profound insights into the nature of LIFE and can tell you – it is so much more crazy than anyone, much less any human, could ever fathom. To reduce it to Nothingness just feels completely misleading to me. We have to have some breakthroughs in human spirituality and my goal is to contribute to poking holes in what is currently called that. It's the same with art, science and any other field: Time and again we think we found most of the "answers", or that there are only details left to explore – and this is just something I'm sensing – but in reality there are mindfucks of such magnitudes to be had, that you couldn't even begin to understand them right now. I get a sense of complacency when looking at the state of our collective development that just drives me crazy. The creative spark of humanity seems like a tiny flickering flame when it could be a raging bonfire.

@enchanted I meant the language of where I live. Thank you for your support, but I still feel the need to edit my response because I think that I would be complete as of now even it makes me seem crazy. I should be closer to completing the life purpose course by now even the day I made my response and I guess I'm starting to feel better. I guess poor mental health can make things more addicting if I lack direction but maybe the life purpose course can fix that (what I will edit is what I want to emphasize why this activity is addicting which will be easier to do then making a seperate response but everything else seems to fit with that I guess). Also, I don't remember my posts listing way too many problems for people to deal with. I don't want to forget about this "stupid forum" because it's worth sharing while I took a break from it that I further see the everything to be nothing that I would like to share on this forum. I basically think that this is the absence of the absence itself and that all duality are absences of each other manifested as the absence and presence of absence which is how everything includes nothingness. Also, I now know to look forward to the new course about reprogramming the subconscious mind that Leo promised to implement his videos that he said was sitting half completed for a long time that I either didn't know or forgot about so I guess further using the forum was worth it.

Consciousness as fundamental is easy. But I found that there is literally nothing there. Like I couldn't see consciousness with consciousness. Just know/be it via the existence of things. And then it just didn't make sense anymore. Everything being mind is very easy. Everything being part of that nothing is very confusing in terms of what continues, separation, the nature of oneness, how nothing is literally something. It wasn't a hallucination etc the thing I am, there's nothing back there. I can't perceive that thing only perceive through it. I could understand that there was definitely nothing actually there which is an object at all...

Sure, but why don't you choose to come back as a person that never comes back. That'll be awesome. Just live in nothingness forever.

@LambdaDelta May I inquire into this implicit omniscience you became aware of and its nature? I've had moments where any questions I came up with automatically deconstructed themselves as I knew their source and intent which instantaneously revealed their self-implied answer and my foolishness in asking them, where all need to experience anything dematerialized into nothingness leaving only the present moment, but I didn't leave my body, perception stayed the same. My strongest trip annihilated me into amnesia and coming in and out of existence through singular forms, concepts, understandings, my perception morphed into a liquid metallic reverberating sea. A recent experience made me aware of infinite fractality, every idea a unique dimension forming physical and mental reality through its relation to every other, an infinite substrate. Can you point me to that meta-realization that includes all and leaves nothing out, something so complete, it can only be subdivided and not expanded? Is it so simple it appears to nothingness? Does it have some kind of flavor? Is it everything being only and ever itself? Is it a realization that opens all doors, all dimensions, does it contextualize reality?

What Does Nothingness Look Like? By Leo Gura - February 26, 2018 When people hear the word “Nothingess”, all too often they get a totally wrong idea about what that word is pointing to. Nothingness is NOT an empty void, a black screen, or a black hole. Here’s a better approximation of what nothingness looks like: Ps. I copied the message here so the object is in the link. This is a new object poping up from the nothingness anew. Now keep in mind, this is just an analogy. A pointer. So don’t start expecting to see the above flashy object in your meditation sessions. That’s never going to happen. What the object above is showing is the dream-like, immaterial, illusory, quality of consciousness. Consciousness is totally empty, like the above object. It is fluid and can take on an infinite number of shapes, with infinite resolution and zero limitation. It is vibrant, alive, and intelligent. Can you see why the above object would be called Nothingness? Because it has no substance to it. It’s pure appearance, and it can appear as literally anything. So we call it Nothingness, which is identical to Everythingness. Or, we could call it Infinity. Imagine if the above object was infinite in size and dimension such that it depicted every form imaginable. That would be what reality is, with your present experience being one of those forms. Try this: Look around the room you’re in right now, and notice that the whole room is Nothingness, just like the object above. Don’t expect the room to disappear! Stop looking for black screen. Instead, notice that the room is pure appearance with no substance behind it. The room is like a hologram. Appearance is none other than Nothingness. The room AS YOU SEE IT RIGHT NOW, is Nothingness! “Form is emptiness, and Emptiness is form.” — The Heart Sutra https://www.actualized.org/insights/what-does-nothingness-look-like

when we dont have any mental projections laid into reality, then there isnt any concept of something and nothing, this vs that, Is that what it's meant when saying that reality is actual nothingness? I felt like i didn't exist when i made the distinction between thoughts and the present moment and everything felt like nothingness because i didnt exist as thoughts to differentiate anything into something.

I think we have all read so many stories or trip reports, or stories from @Leo Gura . That they entered the highest state of consciousness or Christ consciousness or however you want to name it. Yet they're always describing that it's lonely there, and i've experienced this loneliness myself. Notice that they're always here, and are not going anywhere. #explanation again People that used substances like 5 meo dmt or lsd or their own mind and write reports about it, reach this unified field/knowingness become enlightened but always fragment themselves back to lower states of mind because of "loneliness" . Notice that these people are always in your dream, but you yourself have no or have never seen information how to operate in this "field of consciousness" or the knowingness of it. It's is either 1. They don't know how to operate in that state, feel loneliness and always come back. Which is highly unlikely or 2. They're fragments from past/future experiences that are happening now in your dream. I have witnessed the same pre recorded live video "loop pattern story" on LSD 3 months apart. Which means past/future fragments/happenings that happend can be viewed "now". They don't go anywhere. This is evidence/proof, that we're all stuck in this time loop and in this dream. #more explanation I have witnessed the same live video on youtube on lsd 3 months apart, the live video had same view count and same youtube comments, and i knew exactly on which comment the youtube video will end. Meaning that there are no past/future experiences, it's actually happening "now" . Your mind takes or rolls the consciousness fragments/experiences from within the infinite now and just loops them back to you. Meaning you're talking with your previous versions or versions within this consciousness/unified field, sometimes it can be a loop meaning it already happend or sometimes it might be an actual conversation. So essentially others do/did exist, but they were/are all you. And you're playing this game, is because you are always giving up your highest state - MEANING NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO OPERATE IN IT, THAT'S WHY YOU ONLY SEE THE SAME KIND OF TRIP REPORTS MIND BLOWN There needs to be someone , that explains how to operate in this unified field , to go to others realms, witness other worlds etc. But there is never "someone" , Notice that the different "world" experiences always happen under "DMT" or in your own "mind". #explanation again. (There is never someone here in your waking dream/life that knows how to operate in the unified field or the knowingness of yourself as god so you can go to astral plane or another plane of existence/dimension from this knowingness/unified field. Different realms/planes/beings/existence always happen in your own mind or under influence of nn-DMT for example , think of machine elves etc.) It's all in your own mind/comes from within your mind. And when i stopped my heart, i saw that "GOD" is trapped in its own "mind" in nothingness forever.

Yes, in reference to the Absolute/Nothingness, no appearing realm has an inherent reality onto itself. But in the context people like Artem and Martin use this distinction, they mean to say that only the material/energetic material plane we are experiencing is absolutely real, while phenomena like dreaming, astral travel, and non physical realities are fabrications of the brain/human mind. That is the great error they make, that stems from their world view (despite having had deep realizations about their true nature).

That’s not what Leo is pointing at. It’s that you are the dreamer but the dreamer is Nothingness, not another seperate being in another bed. There’s Nothing here