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From what I have seen/read, they both state "Infinite Reality". Totality of Existence in Artems language. And more than enough Infinity in Franks language. I personally prefer another style of language, but I don't have the impression they reject oneness, or Infinite Reality, or Nondual boundless Being. True Nonduality is Oneness. And to throw away the concept of Oneness: One without a second.

My friend made a video after having the Nonduality round table where it was a gathering of "enlightened masters" looks like he had addressed Artem here is the exact timestamp:

Very good. Your post is probably so "way out" that it didn't receive much response, although it being the most interesting one since its posting. Actually, "You" didn't loose "it". Just some clouds appeared that made what you called "deep sleep" a bit harder to directly "perceive/realize" beyond the clouds. Its always there. YOU are that Infinite Being containing the show of duality and nonduality, awakening and sleeping. That impersonal Infinite Reality beyond the "event-horizon" which is so infinite that no "movement" of focus/mind/thought/appearance/perception/I,me,mine-arising can ever get "there". And That Infinite Reality beyond this "event horizon" where small you "can't go" is constant and changeless. That contains all the states of illusion and realizing/awakening, which roll "before"/"within" its Infinite Being. THAT "you" can never loose. Or gain. THAT never changes, because change is contained in it, its expression or modulation. And THAT is absolute freedom & love & bliss. Infinite Liberation. Who are you again? Did you EVER loose yourself (really)?

Now you understand just how much spiritual fantasy all this enlightenment, nonduality, freedom from suffering, unconditional happiness is. Yet more human games. God slapped you around and humbled you a bit, which is great. God is still way beyond your comprehension and state of consciousness still dictates your life. This is a healthy dose of reality. Beware of happy spiritual fantasies of bliss and all that. But also, don't get nihilistic and cynical either. What happened to you is that you acquired an attachment (your son), and now you see how powerful attachment is. And now you can appreciate why every other human is so attached.

@Past-Philosopher-562 I have videos that explain how God-Realization is different from nonduality. Search for my God-Realization video. Beyond that it will require a course, which I have planned but my health slows me down.

@Leo Gura Apparently , I am not keeping up with you progress . You are now beyond nonduality . Intresting . would offer us the youtube videos you explain this leaps you have made .

@questionreality I don't listen to any human speaking about spirituality because it is all human nonsense. Nonduality is a narrow state of consciousness humans invented. I have explained this plenty by now. You are dreaming nonduality. There's nothing more to explain. Get it or don't.

Another one on the difference between nonduality and solipsism. I just can't 🤣

This is the TRAP of nonduality!!!

They are both, and I will explain it clearly, without the Leo error of: you are imagining reality. you are the absolute in a relative experience. You are the absolute because you are the total infinite, and you are relative because you are the total infinite taking a form among infinite forms. On the surface you are limited by all the other infinite forms of reality, which being infinite cannot not take infinite forms, but just below the surface of the form you are the total infinite abyss. That abyss is exactly the same in me, in you, in a dog and in an atom. It is the absolute. To cleanse the doors of perception is to see through the veil of form and open yourself completely to the abyss, which is unthinkable. Nonduality is superficial, Leo is right, but he is wrong because he mixes the absolute with the relative. His opening is not clean, he maintains much, or part, of the "Leo" form, with what for him is a consciousness that is imagining or projecting images. This is absolutely wrong, dual, egocentric and limited .all forms are absolute dimensions, holons, and all are the absolute beneath the surface. awakening, or enlightenment, is the clear awareness of the absolute without the veil of form. Awareness, or conciousness is always the case, it's a continuous. But it is always limited by the form. Enlightenment is unlimited reality concious of itself. Why form is relative and infinity absolute? Because the form is impermanent. It's circumstance, change, limited, and the infinity is immutable, absolute . Encompass all change, then, there is zero change. Reality is self-conscious, therefore, it is always aware of itself. So, if the form is a guy chased by a pride of lions, reality will be aware of that absorbing form. If you eliminate the lions and are able to make the form more and more tenuous until it becomes absolutely transparent, consciousness, which is always the case because reality entails consciousness, will perceive the absolute, what you are. and this is extremely challenging, because it is infinite. It is not something normal, as Spira and Ralston say, they are limited, they do not know what they are talking about. It is something from another dimension: the unlimited dimension, and "you" as form are used to the limited dimension. Leo gets this right, it's much deeper, infinitely deeper.

But God is infinite imagination. So realizing it's all pretending to be, is the KEY thing to realize about God. As I said elswhere, the real God-Realization is seeing how you construct all of your reality. That's the real awakening, beyond nonduality and enlightenment. Just because you have some enlightenment does not mean you are conscious of how you are imagining everything and everyone around you. That's requires a whole lot more consciousness.

How would you define enlightenment? I would do it like this: reality perceiving itself without obstacles. nonduality is an obstacle, it says: I perceive everything as one. It is already something, it is an identification, an idea about reality: it is non-dual. is limited Enlightenment is deeper, it's not seeing that everything is one, it's seeing what is everything.

Nonduality doesn't mean Enlightenment. For Enlightenment to happen, Nonduality (or nondual states) have to ripen normally for a looooong time, for most (according to the traditions 100s to 1000s of hours), to get rid off the "Nondual-Realizer"-identity-arisings towards Impersonal Infinite Nondual Being/Infinite Consciousness without any remaining filter/lense/identity. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonduality&author=Water by the River Leo doesn't differentiate between Nonduality and Enlightenment (although most sophisticated meditation traditions do, pretty much all of the more sophisticated Budhdist traditions like Mahamudra, Dzogchen and also Zen - Kensho vs. Enlightenment. A Kensho IS nondual but a looong way from Enlightenment), nor seem to care about the difference. His God-Realization is in between mere Nonduality with a nondual-Realizer-Identity and True Enlightenment, see link above. Since he can't imagine Enlightenment in any way (if he could he would be enlightened), he happily just throws the baby (Enlightenment) out with the bathwater (Nonduality) and rejoices with "God-Realization". Strange that the God-Realization seems to suck annoyingly often when sobre... but never mind, no problem, no problemo, pas de problème... that Enlightenment is the end of suffering is bullshit anyway, because... hey... it would mean I gotta practice and am not the most you know what. @BlessedLion Seems you have to be happy with the one-liner or two-liner answers. Putting Nonduality and Buddhism and Enlightenment together in one box and dismissing all of it is in my view an unsophisticated and reductionistic perspective. But apparently useful for some... Selling "the flair of spiritual still dark ages by the River"

The issue is deeper than you imagine: Nonduality is maya.

See this group on Facebook. And I think you can find on Reddit people discussing it too. I’m on phone now so it’s a bit tricky to dig everything out. But not only did he cheated on his wife, he seemingly is DATING one of the student he cheated with. Also, he had a big fall-out with his teacher Francis Lucille. Altho, they tried to do PR by recently doing a podcast together. https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/1cbipcf/rupert_spira_francis_lucille_podcast_episode/ Sorry for the messy text. I’m on phone and on the go so it’s hard to properly organize everything.

@Miguel1 So It seems nonduality doesn't save you from having a dick

That's right. I have developed a deep disdain for nondual teachings because of how badly they mischaracterize and mislead about the nature of consciousness. It's downright shameful and I wasted so much time trusting such people when in the end it turned out to be yet more human BS. But I am also sick of trying to explain it to you guys. Live with your human nonduality all you want. One of my biggest mistakes was trying to teach people who are not actually interested in serious learning. And trying to convince them of things. Arguing with nondualists or trying to teach them anything is the biggest waste of time.

Nonduality is too simple because it is ultimately wrong. Nonduality is not God-Realization. Nonduality does not explain God. I have experienced God so deeply that you cannot fathom it. And what spiritual people talk about is not it.

There is no difference between illusory vs Real. As long as my mom appears real in front of my eyes ..then she is real . There is no difference between the Leo I say on my IPhone and the Leo I see in my dreams . That's what nonduality means .the collapsing of the duality between real vs illusory must break down at the end . Deep down I know that I'm the only one here . But it's just more beneficial pragmatically speaking to deal with others as real as long as they "appear " real. So solipsism is true ..but useless.

Oneness=Nonduality WITH an experiencer of that. Subtle identity/separate-self hijacking nonduality. Beyond that is True Nonduality with center/experiencer/separate-self gone. That is what he means.

https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/ Stable access to awakened nondual states? And certain bodily correlates of that, like above? The main effects of psychedelics like Nonduality, Infinite Being, mere groundless appearance, eternal Infinite Being and other minor things (like end of grasping/resistance and so on) in the palm of ones hand, always available? But how the f*** could that even matter?

The Infinity of Gods is such an advanced consciousness that it can hardly be discussed. Once your solipsism becomes so total, so deep, the soverignty of your Mind becomes so absolute, you realize that there can be an infinity number of copies of yourself, but you cannot ever access them because it interferes with your own Mind's soveriengty. So you are left with a profound solipsistic not-knowing. The not-knowing of other sovereign Minds. But also, the possibility then opens of somehow knowing them, but you don't know how. If feels like you are on the very edge of Infinity as it sruggles to break out into yet higher Infinities. This process is so staggering that you cannot make sense of it even as you are in it. Infinity is finding new Infinities within itself. And of course, and new Infitities it finds are recognized as being yourself, but this recogniztion happens across time. So first you recognize it as other, then you recognize it as yourself, and so on it goes. God is forever discovering higher dimensions of itself. That's what it really means to be Infinite. As soon as God grasps itself there opens up new possibilities for even higher grasping. As advanced as the realization of solpsism is, there exists something is more advanced which is beyond nonduality and any kind of human comprehension of spirituality.

My (conservative) perspective: Do you have a solid experience with traditional psychedelics? Needless to say 5-MeO-DMT is one of the strongest. 5-MeO-DMT may cause flashbacks to happen a few times for weeks following the experience, usually when falling asleep/waking up. This scares some people. I met a guy saying who couldn't sleep for 3 weeks after 5-MeO. You gotta be in a healthy mental/social/professional state to handle that, if it happens. Having a good grasp of nonduality and the effects the substance can have is crucial before doing it. There's no need to rush. There will always be the opportunities to do it. The community is huge and if you search for it you find it in most places and countries. There's evidence the brain only completes its development at around the age of 25. Before then, I would be extra careful, especially to avoid the development of any type of psychosis (I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist, but just my understanding). Also, since you're young, I'd say that meditation would be even more important, given how it can positively affect your development. So maybe you could give more emphasis to more traditional spiritual/mindfulness practices at this point of your life, and also focus on regular self-development (career, etc.). That will pay dividends later on, allowing you to better enjoy psychedelics in the future. Personally, I've delayed using 5-MeO. I did dozens of "regular" psychedelic trips (Ayahuasca, mushrooms) over the course of three years before I did Bufo, and later synthetic 5-MeO. I started with the age of 29 and I'm 33 now. I don't regret taking my time to be ready for 5-MeO.

@zurew why are you blending me with Leo? I disagree with almost the entire worldview of Leo regarding metaphysics but not Epistemology. . Being..nothing..everything..infinity.. spirit.. consciousness..awareness.... knowledge..truth.. epistemology......ontology.. nonduality.. god...phenomena..noumena. Brahman.. reality.. Moksha..form..identity..enlightenment....experience etc All of those have almost ZERO correspondence with anything tangible and they subsist mostly off of their correspondence with other made up words. Thinking about "nothing", "God".."infinity".. "consciousness" literally just conjures blank images in one's mind. Truth in my book is this . And its 100% ineffable. And cannot be explained in any way . End of the of the story.

God Realization from what I have seen is just understanding more than the usual psychedelic Awakening (where one just projects an ego in nondual unity on the visual field or Nothingness or whatever). Like, how one imagines the past real time right now (which one does, and it doesn't exist anywhere else). And how one imagines everything else just to fool oneself (like parents, job, being a person,...). The problem with God Realization is: There remains a subtle "realizer" of all of that. Very subtle, very hard to transcend, since this is just a totally empty "Individuality". That is the last hindrance to Enlightenment, which then is therefor also stable if that element is seen through. Wilber calls it Empty Witness (see for example Religion of the Future). But not fully transparent and fully boundless nondual without individuality. And that is why God Realization is not stable sobre. These remaining separate-self elements kill the Awakened nondual states after the trip. In Enlightenment, all of that is totally obvious, and since these components are in place, or rather there illusion-counter-components (like self-existing personality, space, time, outer world, duality/out-thereness) are seen through in real time. Below, the outcome first, and then which kind of illusion-part of the separte-self structure it shuts off. Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left), Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined. Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being. Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities) Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations". That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics. And all of these states and/or insights above one can happpen one at a time, or two, or three combined... Any combination possible, and that creates the myriad of half-baked and different Awakening & (smaller) Enlightenment-descriptions ("Kenshos in Zen"). Ever heard some people have new Awakenings all the time? That is that. For truly awakening to what one truly is, beyond any doubt, one needs all of them. When that Waking Up happens, it is definitive. Because it kills the former illusion of being a separate-anything. That can never be believed again. It is dead. It always ever was an illusion. Even the God-realized ego/separate-self. All a dream. There was never anything else than the Infinite Ocean of Being, formerly with ignorance and illusion arising within it, and now back to the real state of "things", the ignorance no longer arising. Basically, one gets all facets of the Infinite Absolute True Being all at once, and once this happens Infinite Being is totally obvious. It is You. All of it. And can't get more Infinite than Infinite and more eternal than eternal, that is why it is final. The rest is just more appearance IN You (or consciousness OF x, man, woman, Alien, Alien n+1,...). Interesting for sure, but not so urgent. Got Eternity and Infinity to explore, remember? And even if getting distracted by the Lila-show for a moment, "it" is "just there", by just reaching out and killing the illusion-aspect that got re-established by just looking into its nature and just finding the Infinite Ocean of Awareness-Being. Your True Self. So in summary, God-Realization as used here, is a step in the right direction, but it is still not true Enlightenment. Of course, what is sold as Enlightenment is in 80%-90%+ cases not Enlightenment as waking up out of the dream, but just some nondual "Awakening". A dual dream has become a nondual dreaming. Dreaming nonetheless. What Leo calls (correctly) nondual BS. Zen differentiates between Enlightenments (Kenshos), and fully waking up (calling that Great Enlightenment). Only in the latter one there is waking up from the dream. With the former one, a nondual, or god-realized, or whatever ego/separate-self continues dreaming its nondual dream... Lovely place to be at, but still a dream So God Realization is between the naive nondual-Enlightenments with a dreamer still well and alive dreaming nondual-unity-dream, and true waking-up Enlightenment is beyond God Realization, since even the "subtle" one having the God-Realization is seen through as more dreaming. And one can wake up only once, then any separate-anything illusion is ruined for good. That illusions never recovers its fully. And then, one can go still playing with the Aliens for ever new insights, if one is so inclined... So it is tricky, because Leo basically has a Pre-Trans-Confusion in Wilbers lingo. Sorry Leo, but needs to be said. God-Realization is "higher" than a standard nondual-awakening (Nondual Unity Awakening of ego still believing its background story like parents, world, others). These are the Nonduality or Enlightenment-Fundamentalists he criticizes. but it is lower than True Enlightenment, since the final individuality/separate-self/God-realized-ego is not seen through. And once the psychedelic state delivering most of the items listed above wears off, this remaining not seen-through-in-real-time individuality/separte-self/ego kills the awakened state. and since it is all very subtle and impossible to fully understand without having had these awakened states, it is also IMPOSSIBLE to understand True Enlightenment from the perspective of God-Realization before it truly happens (else, one would be already fully enlightened when having seen through the last subtle elements of separation/individuality), Water by the River recommends the age-old recipe of Matthew 7:15-20 "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits". And the proof for that is: Psychedelic Godrealization doesn't last. When the psychedlic wears off, the filters/lenses/contraction of the remaining separate self/ego kick back in, and bye bye awakened nondual states (the ones listed above). And even during "God-Realization", the remaining individual projects itself mightily on all these insights. And then we get Infinity of Gods and stuff not for the faint-of-hearted as compensation. While there is only one Being/Reality, we now have an Infinity of "god-realized" egos. Basically, God-Realization never gets rid of the Individuality/Separation fully, there is always a subtle "someone" having all these realizations. Selling "going all the way" by the River PS: Roger Thisdells version of that. vs. Even the God-realized ones need to fully jump into the mixer Void PS PS: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="God Realization"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy