New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Stop being dense.

Netanyahu is nothing like Hitler.

It was an extreme example to make my point.

I do not think he is more evolved than people like Putin. 

[Yimpa]

Just now, Karmadhi said:

It was an extreme example to make my point.

I do not think he is more evolved than people like Putin. 

People ain’t Pokémon bruh.

[zazen]

4 hours ago, kenway said:

 

 

Also @Nabd don't delete your account.

I agree with your assessment that Israel created Hamas.

Don't let people push you around if you are speaking the truth.

 

He's probably just taking a break. Like with covid or any conspiracy the question comes down to - was it created by the elites or opportunistically used by them. The two extremes are that every major event was conspired into creation or that no conspiracy is possible because the worlds too big and random + a world where a evil cabal exists is too scary to confront and fathom leading to learned helplessness.

Truth lies somewhere in the middle - some events are conspired into existence and other times powerful people conspire around events already set in motion by the randomness of life. Countless hours can be spent discussing conspiracies but ultimately whichever the case - the weaponisation of something rather than the creation of it is bad enough to attribute some responsibility and ill intention which Nabd highlights and that people can often under appreciate. 

@Danioover9000 It's a bit more chill, that was just a Saturday night live over the weekend haha. Ken broke down current events well.

Speaking of conspiracies and the grave digging in Gaza. There's been allegations and convictions of organ harvesting before including involved parties being Chabad in Brooklyn where they found tunnels recently - funny how that just got muted out of the media.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE56M3QU/

“Dozens of New Jersey politicians, officials and prominent rabbis were arrested on Thursday in a sweeping federal probe that uncovered political corruption, human organ sales and money laundering from New York to Israel, officials said.”

Source: TrUsT mE bRo it’S nOt a CoNspiRacy

Edited January 23 by zazen

[Girzo]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

They are human beings. They have at the very least 50% responsibility to the conflict dyamics, aside with full responsibility to their thinking patterns.

If you believe that then you must think that Israel is either very weak or you are okay with it abusing its power, because it's the role of the stronger party to take responsibility. But then why are you so dead on not calling abuse 'an abuse'?

You can't ask people who get partially cut out from the world, segregated as second class people, not even citizens, to take equal part in responsibility.

Yes you can overpower and abuse people, nothing in the universe will stop you from that by default. But then don't cry when that backlashes and other people voice their disdain towards you.

I understand Israel's actions, yet have no sympathy towards them.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

It is frustrating to hear about those dark cells within the system but it is very difficult to demand the whole system to be disciplined or equally moral, with all the depressing reality of the fact that bad apples can infect he whole basket reputation.

Watch your rationalizations.

The desecration of 16 graveyards is not "some bad apples", that comes from official policy.

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

I do not think he is more evolved than people like Putin. 

Yes he is.

Putin will murder you.

Edited January 23 by Leo Gura

[kenway]

 

A study from the European Institute. Noa Krikler writes in 2021 upon the logic of cemetery destruction during genocidal campaigns.

Full text: https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/118722/1/Krikler_Cemetery_destruction_published.pdf

Quote:-

"Three motivations behind the destruction of cemeteries during genocidal campaigns emerged, namely the strengthening of the myth of national purity, the reclaiming of land that is ‘ours’ and the attempt to erase all visible evidence of ‘the other’—all of which can express genocidal intentions. The second section of the analysis, addressing the impact and the legacy of cemetery destruction, reinforces these findings: namely the reinforcement of cultural separation and mistrust that genocidal campaigns foster and the continued violence on the part of the conflict's winners. It is clear that any attempt to examine a genocide without considering the dimension of cultural destruction will fundamentally ignore crucial aspects of the nature and legacy of genocidal campaigns themselves."

 

[zazen]

5 hours ago, kenway said:

 

@Raze @zazen  @lina  @Nabd

Thoughts on this?

Also what are your thoughts on the 17 page Hamas statement released Sunday 21st Jan?

My thoughts and understanding now is that Oct 7th is mostly Israeli propaganda. Specifically, an ordinary Hamas military attack on the border that went wrong and was thereafter exploited by Israeli intelligence and the IDF.

I'm glad that Finkelstein (et al) touched on the subject, but I'm still trying to digest it all.

Any perspectives would be appreciated.

Good listen, I haven't seen the Hamas statement yet but going by the video and from listening to previous analysts that seems correct. The fact that Hamas welcomes investigation and Israel doesn't also doesn't bode well for Israel - they buried the cars for example. No doubt its plausible that some atrocities took place at the hands of Hamas, the problem lies in the false amplification of it to justify what came next. That rape was was done at mass scale and that the sole intent of their operation was genocide - that this extends as a threat to the Western world and that this fight against Hamas is a fight for the free world as President Herzog claimed at Davos this week. Hamas is such a threat to the world that majority of the world call for a ceasefire and not to rid them from the earth.

Good article: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2024-01-19/guardian-hamas-rape-sniff-test/ 

''Did Hamas’ most disciplined elite fighters – training for years and knowing that this might be their only, brief moment to take on the Israeli army in a near-fair fight or drag hostages back to Gaza for a prisoner swap before the Israeli military used its air power to overwhelm them – really take time out to indulge in a sick game involving a woman’s breast?

What we now know – from multiple credible Israeli sources – is that Israel killed lots of its own civilians on October 7. Ynet, Israel’s biggest media outlet, has just published an investigation in Hebrew showing that Hamas successfully took out Israel’s all-seeing drone “eyes” over Gaza that day, leaving the Israeli military blind about what was happening. Panicked, Israeli commanders invoked the Hannibal directive, allowing those in the field to order tanks and helicopters to fire at anything that moved.

It was Israel that incinerated the hundreds of cars trying to flee the Nova festival, killing potentially hundreds of the 1,140 Israelis that died that day, as well as Hamas fighters. It was an Israeli tank that incinerated 13 Israeli civilians, and 40 Hamas fighters, holed up in a house in Kibbutz Be’eri by blasting a shell through its front wall.''

 

Edited January 23 by zazen

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It was an extreme example to make my point.

I do not think he is more evolved than people like Putin. 

Putin is a cold calculating psychopath. Literally any other prominent leader would be more evolved than Putin. 

[Danioover9000]

   This Levy guy's losing it. They should have trained their propagandists better so they don't do this:

 

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Watch your rationalizations.

The desecration of 16 graveyards is not "some bad apples", that comes from official policy.

What do you think the rational behind this if this is indeed a policy?

If so, I want to believe this is only possible because of the current radical government the most radical since Israel establishment. Far right wing toxicity.

Edited January 23 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes he is.

Putin will murder you.

Israel has caused  more human suffering under BiBi if you adjust it for its size relative to Russia under Putin.

In the second chechen war, syrian war and ukraine, wars under Putin, combined to around 50.000 civilians have died.

Under BiBI in Gaza just this war is close to 25.000, and will probably go to 40.000. If you add the other wars in Gaza it comes close to 50.000.

So he is responsible for as much human suffering.

Numbers mattes.

Usually the number of people that died under someone's rule is a good indicator of how ruthless a leader is.

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi And the Allied killed 350,000 to 500,000 in WW2.

Numbers are meaningless without big picture context.

 

[Nivsch]

@zazen I wanted to comment but this isn't worth it. Tell me when the 7.10 denial sub thread will end 🙂

Edited January 23 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

nd the Allied killed 350,000 to 500,000 in WW2.

Numbers are meaningless without big picture context.

Yes you are right.

They were fighting the Nazis which killed close to 25.000.000 civilians all around Europe.

So around 71 times more civilians.

They are not called devils for no reason.

Now tell me, how many did Hamas kill?

Did they kill 3.5 million Israeli civilians which would be the equivalent of this?

You think people would protest about Gaza if Hamas attacked killed that many Israelis?

Scale matters.

[kenway]

@zazen

Appreciate the insights. Thanks for sharing.

[kenway]

 

Relevant, from same study.

 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi 

There is only one side who initiates attacks against civilians and another side who never (99.9% of its society and the decades long proven policy) wants to do anything unless provoked and acts against the attacks source. Numbers worth nothing out of context.

Edited January 23 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

1 minute ago, kenway said:

 

Relevant, from same study.

 

IDF confirmed that they are looking for Israelies corpses in those cemeteries. People Hamas kidnapped and killed in captivity, their bodies should to be returned to their families in Israel. Don't worry, they will put everything in place, if that's bothering you.

[Lila9]

On 1/21/2024 at 10:40 PM, Karmadhi said:

I am not saying that everything was perfect but I am sure Arabs treated them far better than Europeans did. Just the Holocaust is enough to differentiate the two.

Now regarding Israel, the issue is I think that Israel would basically force native Palestinian Muslims to live under a Jewish state and they did not want that. Also, most importantly they did not want to give up their land to European Jew settlers. I am curious, why did not the White European Jew settlers live under Palestine and the authorities of Palestine could be a mixed government between Jews and Muslims? Similar to Lebanon which is Christian/Muslim.

Or they could live as a minority group in Palestine depending on the demographics. White European Jews could come in but the native Palestinians would keep their houses and businesses. It would be similar to Syrians immigrating to Germany these last few years. 

Why create a totally different state?

 

I don't think that it was reasonable for European Jews, which were educated and more developed than the Palestinians to be an under a Palestinian goverment.

Those people came to the conclusion that the best solution is to built a state of their own, in their native land, in which they wouldn't be at the mercy of any nation. Because history proved that living under someone else in control isn't safe.

They could build a state together with the Palestinians, but they didn't agree on the most basic things and didn't share the same values, so this wasn't possible. Still isn't.

And thanks God there is an Israeli state with a strong army. Better to lose thostands of people, but having a state and a strong army, rather than loosing millions of people and being in the mercy others, without any protection.

I think that even if Israel was built in Uganda or elsewhere in the world, someone would have something to say about it or would have tried to fight it.

 

[Karmadhi]

13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

There is only one side who initiates attacks against civilians and another side who never wants to do anything unless provoked and acts against the attacks source. Numbers worth nothing out of context.

There is daily provocation with the inhumane illegal way they get treated. So is the illegal taking of their land. All attacks although wrong, are very provocated. Even Leo has admitted this much. The head of UN and many organizations said the same.