New War In Israel / Gaza

[PurpleTree]

29 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen What rediculous is the unfairness you guys have here in this discussion towards Israel, Israeli public and the inability to understand their perspective and feel the deep insecure and threat they feel in a way they have and probably YOU have never felt in the past as a western boy/man in a developed country like us.

I just can imagine how would you react if your hometown was under similar threat and only 40km near you 1000 men, women, children and elderly would murdered by a terror organization who is deliberately looking for civilians like you. I bet you would react very differently and this is an understatement.

Watch some interviews of Israeli families and give up the idea you can understand the situation from distance.

As opposed to terror, a little modesty won't kill you.

 

Well i get it, it’s tough. 
i have visited israel and i really mostly liked it. Historically there’s so much to see. Food is great. Had some great parties there too in Tel Aviv. I like that it‘s generally liberal toward lgbt etc. compared to many other places in the middle east.

But we are not Israelis, so we see the Palestinians suffering a lot too.

And with the settlers and people like Netanyahu it‘s just very problematic and often very „unfair“

also some people in the thread are just anti israel in every way

Edited November 1, 2023 by PurpleTree

[zazen]

@Nivsch I'm not against Israel, but its current form and its actions are against the interest of Israelis and to a wider extent Jews who live abroad threatened by increasing anti Semitism. Israelis have the IDF to protect them in mostly Jewish cities in Israel - what about the Jews living abroad in multicultural places - the arrogance and emboldened far right of Israel and its reactions to the Hamas attack put them at risk worldwide where they IDF don't exist to protect them. They also put at risk Israel itself because of the complacency arrogance has brought them and the thinking that US will back them no matter what.

I live in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood in London mixed with Muslims, I have Israeli friends who live in Israel and some from the West who only go to Eilat to party in the summers and relatives in Nazareth who say they can't even post on Gaza on social media fearing the IDF will come cause trouble, so I'm aware of the different perspectives.  

 

I'd suggest watching this to hear a different perspective to the one Israeli's are propagandised into and which may work against them in the long run:

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by zazen

[Something Funny]

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen What rediculous is the unfairness you guys have here in this discussion towards Israel, Israeli public and the inability to understand their perspective and feel the deep insecure and threat they feel in a way they have and probably YOU have never felt in the past as a western boy/man in a developed country like us.

I just can imagine how would you react if your hometown was under similar threat and only 40km near you 1000 men, women, children and elderly would murdered by a terror organization who is deliberately looking for civilians like you. I bet you would react very differently and this is an understatement.

Watch some interviews of Israeli families and give up the idea you can understand the situation from distance.

As opposed to terror, a little modesty won't kill you.

 

You guys sure love to play a victim card. How about 30x more dead palestinian people? I don't see you trying to emphasize with them very much.

 

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 

I just can imagine how would you react if your hometown was under similar threat and only 40km near you 1000 men, women, children and elderly would murdered by a terror organization who is deliberately looking for civilians like you. I bet you would react very differently and this is an understatement.

 

How would you feel if controllers cut off your food water electricity and internet and bombed you and just 40km away there are Israeli children playing and laughing in the park? 

[Bazooka Jesus]

This is great to see.

[hundreth]

4 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

If they think they are the chosen people what does that make everyone else? 

The whole chosen people thing is way overblown anyways. The actual story from the Torah is that the Jews were God's last choice to receive the covenant. He went to all the other nations and Jews were the only ones to accept it. So it's more, Jews accepted this religion rather than being chosen because they are special. Just some biblical context because some of y'all are making a biblical point.

[Karmadhi]

The fundamental issue with Israel as a state is that it is created and flourished at the expense of others.

Everyone that values fairness and equality a lot will find the country itself built on problematic grounds and therefore will be a lot less sensitive to its suffering even if it is genuine.

Combine this with the way Israel has treated Palestinians in general, INCLUDING THE WEST BANK WHERE THERE IS NO HAMAS, SO NO TERRORISTS

We see now a rise in antisemitism all over the world, it is sad because most of the Jews outside Israel have no say it in.

What I wish can happen after all this is that Israel will learn it is NOT above intentional law and start treated Palestinians, at least in the West Bank where they do not do terrorist attacks from, as equals.

I do not think it is much to ask for.

But please, everyone here that is Pro Israel or from Israel, why does Israeli treat Palestinians in the West Bank badly there? As far as I saw there is no Hamas there, why are not they treated as equals to Jews?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The fundamental issue with Israel as a state is that it is created and flourished at the expense of others.

Everyone that values fairness and equality a lot will find the country itself built on problematic grounds and therefore will be a lot less sensitive to its suffering even if it is genuine.

Combine this with the way Israel has treated Palestinians in general, INCLUDING THE WEST BANK WHERE THERE IS NO HAMAS, SO NO TERRORISTS

We see now a rise in antisemitism all over the world, it is sad because most of the Jews outside Israel have no say it in.

What I wish can happen after all this is that Israel will learn it is NOT above intentional law and start treated Palestinians, at least in the West Bank where they do not do terrorist attacks from, as equals.

I do not think it is much to ask for.

But please, everyone here that is Pro Israel or from Israel, why does Israeli treat Palestinians in the West Bank badly there? As far as I saw there is no Hamas there, why are not they treated as equals to Jews?

You know what, I actually agree with your points here. I wish Israel's right wing government were replaced with a more reasonable kind. Not because of international law, but because our people really do want peace.

We should treat those in the West Bank well, and I'm personally against the settlements. 

The reason our viewpoints clashed previously is because you continued to question the existence of our nation and going back in time 70 or so years and for us it's a rabbit hole of circumstance, opposing interpretations of history, and unsolvable moral quandaries. If you want to focus on the present and the future, many Jews and Israelis are with you. We want peace.

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Not because of international law,

However the country should still suffer the consequences of not respecting them.

This would imply war crime trials for its current government and some military leaders. 

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

We should treat those in the West Bank well

But can you explain to me from an Israeli point of view why that is not the case? I have seen endless footage of harassment, humiliation and even kids getting shot from police wanting to test their accuracy. Barbaric stuff.

Just why?

What did those poor people do to deserve that?

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

 

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

However the country should still suffer the consequences of not respecting them.

This would imply war crime trials for its current government and some military leaders. 

While there's often times a good reason to use the justice system, in this case it's a pointless exercise for an arbitrary set of rules for outsiders who have never faced a situation like this. Also, I think you'll find that even if they were tried, it wouldn't hold up. For example, with the recent refugee camp bombing there was indeed a Hamas military leader there as a target - and so this is technically legal. And also, are you going to start making Palestinians who committed war crimes face the consequences, or are you just going to absolve them of all accountability because Zionism?

 

Quote

But can you explain to me from an Israeli point of view why that is not the case? I have seen endless footage of harassment, humiliation and even kids getting shot from police wanting to test their accuracy. Barbaric stuff.

Just why?

What did those poor people do to deserve that?

Unfortunately there are extremist orthodox religious folk backed up by a right wing government. Nothing confusing about it. Until Netanyahu is replaced, this will continue happening.

[Karmadhi]

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

While there's often times a good reason to use the justice system, in this case it's a pointless exercise for an arbitrary set of rules for outsiders who have never faced a situation like this.

That is irrelevant. You sign something then you respect it or get punished. There are not "buts".

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

For example, with the recent refugee camp bombing there was indeed a Hamas military leader there as a target

Personally I do not think 50 civilians dead and hundreds wounded is worth 1 Hamas leader. I would get him another way and spare 50 people. This is the mindset of people that do not care about civilian deaths. 50 to 1 is unacceptable ratio. Dot.

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

And also, are you going to start making Palestinians who committed war crimes

Those people are military people that are currently fighting and getting killed so I do not think war crime trials are necessary. They will fall in battle.

If there are Hamas leaders chilling in other countries they should be arrested and sent to war crime trials for sure.

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Unfortunately there are extremist orthodox religious folk backed up by a right wing government.

Any news of it being replaced?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

10 minutes ago, Nabd said:

If Israel or the US are serious about Hamas then they should just declare Hamas as a terrorist organization and demand Qatar to give them Haniyee and Aldayf and others.

Muslim brotherhood was originally funded by the UK and even today many Hamas leaders or members live in UK openly.

Qatar is like a tiny little state and its a functional state which means it does specific tasks and should not be a problem for the US to send an ultimatum.

This would be nice. Though on its own wouldn't solve much. As long as Hamas still enforces Gaza, the status quo will go on. I don't know if Israel's current strategy will work out, but it is closer to actually addressing the issue. Which is that Gazans themselves are held hostage by Hamas.

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, hundreth said:

This would be nice. Though on its own wouldn't solve much. As long as Hamas still enforces Gaza, the status quo will go on. I don't know if Israel's current strategy will work out, but it is closer to actually addressing the issue. Which is that Gazans themselves are held hostage by Hamas.

👍👍🏆

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

If israel doesn‘t go after the hamas leaders i can’t take it seriously 🌈💜

[Karmadhi]

The fact that the Israeli government finds a ratio of 50 civilians dead and hundreds injured to kill 1 Hamas leader shows the fundamental issue in this war.

A humane government would find another way, Palestinian civilians in large numbers lives should ALWAYS take priority over Hamas leaders deaths.

They should get them in another way. It is not like they lack the money or technology or skill. It is a matter of will and humanity, things their government fundamentally lacks.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Karmadhi

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

If israel doesn‘t go after the hamas leaders i can’t take it seriously 🌈💜

I mean the ones abroad too

[zazen]

The true axis of evil is the perverted versions of power, profit and prophecy meeting together in this Israel/Palestine situation. The power-profit-prophecy complex.

The problem is that the incentives of power (geopolitical), profits (military industrial complex) and prophecy (religion) are dangerously converging. Power and profits have converged before with religious undertones, but this convergence is on the holy land itself in which all three Abrahamic faiths prophesize their end times. Location, location, location..

The ignorant take end time prophecies that are myth as literal, and self fulfil them into existence to hasten whatever good they are promised from it (coming of a Messiah and the return of Jesus).

Many problems stem from taking myth that is fiction for a fact that is literal, not realising that the value of fiction is in its functionality, rather than its factuality. Many problems further stem from viewing prophets as the spokesperson of God, rather than the spokesperson on God.

Speaking on current events becomes important when the current events at play are such currents that risk the potential to drown all that is precious to us.

Edited November 1, 2023 by zazen

[Gennadiy1981]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

The true axis of evil is the perverted versions of power, profit and prophecy meeting together in this Israel/Palestine situation.

The problem is that the incentives of power (geopolitical), profits (military industrial complex) and prophecy (religion) are dangerously converging. Power and profits have converged before with religious undertones, but this convergence is on the holy land itself in which all three Abrahamic faiths prophesize their end times. Location, location, location..

The ignorant take end time prophecies that are myth as literal, and self fulfil them into existence to hasten whatever good they are promised from it (coming of a Messiah and the return of Jesus).

Many problems stem from taking myth that is fiction for a fact that is literal, not realising that the value of fiction is in its functionality, rather than its factuality. Many problems further stem from viewing prophets as the spokesperson of God, rather than the spokesperson on God.

Speaking on current events becomes important when the current events at play are such currents that risk the potential to drown all that is precious to us.

@zazen You know I give you that. I really think that it has to do with prophecy and end of times and you caught it very well. But do you think prophecy is total BS? So let me ask you in this case scenario, lets say things will go south so bad, that nuclear weapons wil be sued and 7/8 of the world will be gone (by the way in the bible it says only 1/8 of the world will survive the final war), so then will you take the bible seriously or its all coincidence? 

I am not asking this from religious perspective, but note how long ago the bible was written and yet how accurate it describes, I was fascinating reading the chapter with the war of Gog and Magog written thousand years ago, speaking of a great country in the west colliding with the country Persia (Iran) and its allies, it speaks of war of massive proportions where the dust will cover the sun. 

Do you really think that all those prophets like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Zachariah and so much more were just bullshitters? Or they were able to foresee something. If you made this scenario even two hundred years ago, it would have been a fairy tale.

This is something I am asking myself actually, are all those prophecies pure bullshit, or those people were able to forsee something. Honestly at this point I do not have answer, but to say its pure BS, I am not ready to say neither.

A food for thought. 

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@zazen You know I give you that. I really think that it has to do with prophecy and end of times and you caught it very well. But do you think prophecy is total BS? So let me ask you in this case scenario, lets say things will go south so bad, that nuclear weapons wil be sued and 7/8 of the world will be gone (by the way in the bible it says only 1/8 of the world will survive the final war), so then will you take the bible seriously or its all coincidence? 

I am not asking this from religious perspective, but note how long ago the bible was written and yet how accurate it describes, I was fascinating reading the chapter with the war of Gog and Magog written thousand years ago, speaking of a great country in the west colliding with the country Persia (Iran) and its allies, it speaks of war of massive proportions where the dust will cover the sun. 

Do you really think that all those prophets like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Zachariah and so much more were just bullshitters? Or they were able to foresee something. If you made this scenario even two hundred years ago, it would have been a fairy tale.

This is something I am asking myself actually, are all those prophecies pure bullshit, or those people were able to forsee something. Honestly at this point I do not have answer, but to say its pure BS, I am not ready to say neither.

A food for thought. 

No because those creeps are trying to fulfill the prophecy as good as they can. I wonder if they ever come up with a „messiahs“

[Bazooka Jesus]

Yemeni forces are joining in on the fun...

This doesn't look good.