New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

Jewish Israelis and put them into ghettos and into an apartheid like system - then the Jews would revolt, as they did in the Warsaw ghetto uprising against the Nazi's, would that revolt be justified?

Don't compare the Warsaw Ghetto with Gaza.

If Nazis put the Jews in Gaza (like conditions), it would be a Singapore and the Jews there would thrive.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Vrubel

[Breakingthewall]

Bombing civilians like Israel is doing is horrible, but it is worth remembering that all states do it. US in Iraq, for economic and strategic reasons, Russia in Chechnya, France in Algeria... basically all of them, but it's just different to see it live.

The reality is that if a state is to survive, moral concerns must be put aside. This does not mean that I support Israel bombing Gaza, I think it is a mistake and a evilness, but the level of evil that they are demonstrating is a normal level.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[zazen]

17 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Don't compare the Warsaw Ghetto with Gaza.

If Nazis put the Jews in Gaza (like conditions), it would be a Singapore and the Jews there would thrive.

It takes going to the extreme end of the spectrum to make a point clear. Yes, maybe the Jews would make a Singapore out of Gaza, but that would be despite their conditions, not because of them. That doesn't make the dire conditions they would have to work through right legally or morally.

 

If one kind of people have higher IQ and are able to create something greater than those with less IQ, does that mean its just to provide that group with lesser opportunity? The West fights for equality of opportunity, not necessarily outcome, and basic human rights, whether the use of those rights results in a Singapore or a mid level Arabian town is up to the people those rights are bestowed upon.

 

And yes, there are parts of the world where basic needs such as food, water and electricity don't exist, but that exists more so as a natural state of their impoverished circumstance and geography - not a nurtured state of affairs at the hands of men imposed on them.

Edited November 2, 2023 by zazen

[DawnC]

Just now, zazen said:

It takes going to the extreme end of the spectrum to make a point clear. Yes, maybe the Jews would make a Singapore out of Gaza, but that would be despite their conditions, not because of them. That doesn't make the dire conditions they would have to work through right legally or morally.

 

If one kind of people have higher IQ and are able to create something greater than those with less IQ, does that mean its just to provide that group with lesser opportunity? The West fights for equality of opportunity, not necessarily outcome, and basic human rights, whether the use of those rights results in a Singapore or a mid level Arabian town is up to the people those rights are bestowed upon. 

But you are addressing this as if the pure condition situation is merely an injustice done to them and don't recognize that a major part of it is self-induced.

[zazen]

35 minutes ago, DawnC said:

But you are addressing this as if the pure condition situation is merely an injustice done to them and don't recognize that a major part of it is self-induced.

Whilst its good to not take on the identity of victimhood and embrace responsibility, there definitely are victims of circumstance that exist. Like Leo always talks about Holism and the connectivity of things, the web of life affects things and spills over to affect other areas. Gen Z who have mental health problems amounting to half of them for example, is that self induced or a product of their environment - the atomisation, loneliness and lifestyle modernity provides.

It's good to embrace agency but the extreme is to take the stance of hyper agency - to believe despite any situation its all on the individual to make something of himself. The right embrace responsibility and claim to be more rational then the left, yet using rationality and the logic of cause and effect - one can establish a chain of cause and affects that leads people to dire conditions that can fracture them and cripple their development to the point that everything in their life is their responsibility is absurd, inconsiderate and inhumane.

 

''Critics argue that these policies have hindered the economic, social, and infrastructural development of Gaza. Some of the key ways in which Israel is accused of hindering Gaza's development include:

1. Blockade: Israel has imposed a naval and land blockade on Gaza since 2007, following the Hamas takeover of the territory. This blockade restricts the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza, severely limiting its access to essential supplies, including building materials, medical equipment, and fuel.

2. Restricted Access: The blockade and restrictions on movement make it difficult for Gazans to access markets, job opportunities, and medical care in Israel and the West Bank.

3. Military Operations: Periodic Israeli military operations in Gaza have caused significant damage to infrastructure, homes, and public services, making reconstruction and development challenging.

4. Limitations on Exports: Restrictions on Gaza's ability to export goods have hampered economic development and job creation.

5. Electricity and Water: Gaza experiences frequent electricity shortages due to its dependence on Israel for a significant portion of its electricity supply. Access to clean water is also limited.

6.Settlements and Land Seizures: The construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which are considered illegal under international law, is viewed as an obstacle to peace and a hindrance to the development of a future Palestinian state.

It's important to note that these issues are deeply intertwined with the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict and security concerns. Supporters of Israeli policies argue that they are implemented to ensure Israel's security and protect its citizens from threats emanating from Gaza.''

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

Resignation letter from the Director of New York Office of the UN High Commissioner of Human Rights + his view as a lawyer and specialist in international human rights law on how to move forward:

https://aurdip.org/en/resignation-letter-from-the-director-of-new-york-office-of-un-high-commissioner-of-human-rights/

1. Legitimate action: First, we in the UN must abandon the failed (and largely disingenuous) Oslo paradigm, its illusory two-state solution, its impotent and complicit Quartet, and its subjugation of international law to the dictates of presumed political expediency. Our positions must be unapologetically based on international human rights and international law.
2. Clarity of Vision: We must stop the pretense that this is simply a conflict over land or religion between two warring parties and admit the reality of the situation in which a disproportionately powerful state is colonizing, persecuting, and dispossessing an indigenous population on the basis of their ethnicity.
3. One State based on human rights: We must support the establishment of a single, democratic, secular state in all of historic Palestine, with equal rights for Christians, Muslims, and Jews, and, therefore, the dismantling of the deeply racist, settler-colonial project and an end to apartheid across the land.
4. Fighting Apartheid: We must redirect all UN efforts and resources to the struggle against apartheid, just as we did for South Africa in the 1970s, 80s, and early 90s.
5. Return and Compensation: We must reaffirm and insist on the right to return and full compensation for all Palestinians and their families currently living in the occupied territories, in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and in the diaspora across the globe.
6. Truth and Justice: We must call for a transitional justice process, making full use of decades of accumulated UN investigations, enquiries, and reports, to document the truth, and to ensure accountability for all perpetrators, redress for all victims, and remedies for documented injustices.
7. Protection: We must press for the deployment of a well-resourced and strongly mandated UN protection force with a sustained mandate to protect civilians from the river to the sea.
8. Disarmament: We must advocate for the removal and destruction of Israel’s massive stockpiles of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, lest the conflict lead to the total destruction of the region and, possibly, beyond.
9. Mediation: We must recognize that the US and other western powers are in fact not credible mediators, but rather actual parties to the conflict who are complicit with Israel in the violation of Palestinian rights, and we must engage them as such.
10. Solidarity: We must open our doors (and the doors of the SG) wide to the legions of Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, Muslim, and Christian human rights defenders who are standing in solidarity with the people of Palestine and their human rights and stop the unconstrained flow of Israel lobbyists to the offices of UN leaders, where they advocate for continued war, persecution, apartheid, and impunity, and smear our human rights defenders for their principled defense of Palestinian rights.

Edited November 2, 2023 by lina

[lina]

Doing mental gymnastics to divert the attention away from the core problem which is as he said :  "...ethno-nationalist settler colonial ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging.."  will not help anyone. 

[julienw]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Today the IDF admitted to killing 80+ civilians to kill 1 Hamas person.

And they have no qualms about this. So this is their philosophy.

At this rate they will kill 100,000 civilians just to kill 10% of Hamas.

What will happen after the civilian death toll goes over 100,000? This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?

Totally agree man. As much as I'm saddened by what happened on Oct 7, what's happened to the Palestinians since is like so much fucking worse. Not just from an ethical, moral standpoint but also from the point of view of who the world sees as the bad guy, and how that's going to take probably generations to settle down.

[Nivsch]

To the quiet readers Israel supporter here - Don't lose heart.

The lesser (or greater?) Jihad who shows us its true face with swastikas in every protest, is always the loudest (as we know from london) and it easy to fall into the trap this it is the majority. It is not.

According to Globes news:

France - 65% of the citizens agree about the need to eliminate hamas.

England - 50% blames hamas in the war.

Germany - Support rate in Israel rises consistently.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

Germany - Support rate in Israel rises consistently.

You do realize Germany supports Israel because they feel guilt for the atrocities they commited on Jews, not because they think Israel is actually on the right. I mean kudos to them but Germany supporting you does not mean that you are on the right here...

"Today the IDF admitted to killing 80+ civilians to kill 1 Hamas person.

And they have no qualms about this. So this is their philosophy.

At this rate they will kill 100,000 civilians just to kill 10% of Hamas.

What will happen after the civilian death toll goes over 100,000? This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?"

This is Leo's comment.

Would like your feedback on it.

Especially on the barbaric philosophy that killing 80+ civilians is worth the life of 1 Hamas person.

Do Israeli military even take into account the civilian deaths or they use some sort of Black Mirror vision goggles where they eliminate all civilians from their vision and only see Hamas and no other humans around?

Honestly, educate me on this because I cannot understand how they think...

[Nivsch]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Today the IDF admitted to killing 80+ civilians to kill 1 Hamas person.

And they have no qualms about this. So this is their philosophy.

At this rate they will kill 100,000 civilians just to kill 10% of Hamas.

What will happen after the civilian death toll goes over 100,000? This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?

But Leo from where did you read that?

And how do you know this is a reliable source?

IDF spokesman didn't say that. I understand when you say you can't trust him automatically.

But do we can just trust another sources just because they are not IDF is this mean they are objective?

And just the logic of it is not possible because see - thats mean that on every hamas terrorist, 80 citizens have to lie on him like a blanket to be killed, but even then - will the soldier just kill them? It doesnt make sense not logically not morally and not intuitively. We speak now on the ground phase. The air phase has reduced quite significantly.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch I saw this interview here which basically said: "Would Israeli do the same tactics if Hamas was hiding among Israelis. The guy said "No".

Now, I do agree that Israeli will care more about their own citizen lives than another country, I cannot realistically expect them not to. 

However, it shows that if Israel truly wanted, they could find ways to hit Hamas with less collateral damage.

They are choosing the easy way out. "Oh there is an enemy somewhere there? Fuck it, just blow the whole area it will get him in the end".

"What about all the civilians there"? "Fuck them, they support Hamas so they deserve to die along with them".

There was a Piers Morgan interview with an Israeli ex PM (bald guy dont remember his name) and the guy legit said:

"Many people in Gaza support Hamas, they are not independent variables". If a PM has that attitude it clarifies a lot about the fact that indeed Israelis think that Palestinians in Gaza are with Hamas and are all seen as the enemy. It would explain a lot with this carpet bombing bs.

Now maybe some older people may support Hamas (and that is understandable) but half dying are young kids which are 100000% innocent and therefore this is barbaric.

Imagine saying "Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas in 2006, they like them" when literally half that are dying were not even born then.

It is the same logic saying to German kids born in 1960s "You guys elected the Nazis so you like and support him'

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Guest Tobia]

@Nivsch in 2002 Israel killed 14 civilians to kill an Hamas commander and Bush (a war criminal himself) had to publicly denounce Israel and the unacceptable decision to bomb an apartment building to get a hamas commander.

Whether it is 80 or 40 civilians, these are acts of mass murder. The images of that refugee and the massacre are going around the world, it makes billions of people hate Israel even more than they already did. Not wise for long term security

[Karmadhi]

@Tobia How come Bush did that? Interesting...

Did USA Israel relation get closer since then or was Bush less pro Israel?

[DawnC]

52 minutes ago, zazen said:

Whilst its good to not take on the identity of victimhood and embrace responsibility, there definitely are victims of circumstance that exist. Like Leo always talks about Holism and the connectivity of things, the web of life affects things and spills over to affect other areas. Gen Z who have mental health problems amounting to half of them for example, is that self induced or a product of their environment - the atomisation, loneliness and lifestyle modernity provides.

It's good to embrace agency but the extreme is to take the stance of hyper agency - to believe despite any situation its all on the individual to make something of himself. The right embrace responsibility and claim to be more rational then the left, yet using rationality and the logic of cause and effect - one can establish a chain of cause and affects that leads people to dire conditions that can fracture them and cripple their development to the point that everything in their life is their responsibility is absurd, inconsiderate and inhumane.

 

''Critics argue that these policies have hindered the economic, social, and infrastructural development of Gaza. Some of the key ways in which Israel is accused of hindering Gaza's development include:

1. Blockade: Israel has imposed a naval and land blockade on Gaza since 2007, following the Hamas takeover of the territory. This blockade restricts the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza, severely limiting its access to essential supplies, including building materials, medical equipment, and fuel.

2. Restricted Access: The blockade and restrictions on movement make it difficult for Gazans to access markets, job opportunities, and medical care in Israel and the West Bank.

3. Military Operations: Periodic Israeli military operations in Gaza have caused significant damage to infrastructure, homes, and public services, making reconstruction and development challenging.

4. Limitations on Exports: Restrictions on Gaza's ability to export goods have hampered economic development and job creation.

5. Electricity and Water: Gaza experiences frequent electricity shortages due to its dependence on Israel for a significant portion of its electricity supply. Access to clean water is also limited.

6.Settlements and Land Seizures: The construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which are considered illegal under international law, is viewed as an obstacle to peace and a hindrance to the development of a future Palestinian state.

It's important to note that these issues are deeply intertwined with the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict and security concerns. Supporters of Israeli policies argue that they are implemented to ensure Israel's security and protect its citizens from threats emanating from Gaza.''

 

 

I don't speak out of a mere 'be responsible' attitude. I acknowledge that there are situations where people are victims. I just don't think this situation is like that at all. If we trace things back to the beginning of the conflict and observe the trajectory, the Palestinians not only didn't seek peace, they initiated war and were not able to compromise. They are actually caught up in the basics of understanding that a Jewish state is a fact. You don't have to even consider the Israeli perspective for that, just take a realistic look toward reality. Their society lacks any constructive elements, and they basically have no concept of building a nation. This is the main reason why they are dependent on Israel for electricity and water, still living in refugee camps, and are more focused on building tunnels to invade Israel from underground than building schools, hospitals, and universities. And the power imbalance is not the reason. There was no such imbalance in the establishment of Israel. The power imbalance arose because Israeli society focused itself on nation-building, whereas the Palestinians did not.

The fact that Israel made mistakes in the past doesn't make them entirely responsible or victimizers. Some of your points were actually very reasonable actions. I will just copy and paste my comment from another thread because I don't want to write it again: 

"Yes, the conditions of the Palestinians under Israeli control are terrible and discriminatory. Yes, the conditions in the Gaza Strip are dire. Yes, many Palestinians lost their homes in '48. Yes, Israel occupied Gaza and the West Bank in '67. But those things did not happen in a vacuum either. That is precisely my point. Let me give you two simple examples:

1) 'Many Palestinians lost their homes in 1948': The Jews in Israel endured horrific riots and attacks from Arab Palestinians in the early 20th century, long before they had any real power or a state. It was only after the Arabs initiated a war on Israel that Palestinians lost their homes. Almost all of them fled and weren't forcibly expelled. There were some terrible acts of deportation by Israelis, but this wasn't the majority, and it occurred when Israel's very existence was at stake, facing aggression from five Arab countries, including Arabs within Israel. It wasn't civilians being expelled by an army; it was a total civil war, with one side supported by nearly all the surrounding countries.

2) 'The conditions in the Gaza Strip are terrible'. They are. But why is that? Why are they so dire? There have been enormous amounts of money sent to Gaza from all over the world. Did Israel hinder Palestinians from developing their own society and improving their quality of life? In fact, Israel removed its settlers from their homes, withdrew the military, and departed. From a broader perspective, when Israel attempts to help Palestinians, to seek an end to the conflict, or takes steps to improve the situation, instead of welcoming these efforts and trying to build something positive from them, the Palestinians make the situation worse."

[Karmadhi]

@DawnC What about West Bank? Why Israelis treat them like shit? No Hamas in West Bank, and Israelis keep taking land. It is just adding more fuel to the fire.

Do not ignore that...

[Nivsch]

@Tobia I'm sure israel is walking on eggs and tries its best not to kill civilians.

Want to know how I know that?

because 1.Israel is sensitive to international pressure and 2. Doesnt want to give hamas that pleasure to blame us 🙂

3. Israel is just much more moral but why would you believe that? You won't. So face 1 and 2 at least.

[DawnC]

12 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@DawnC What about West Bank? Why Israelis treat them like shit? No Hamas in West Bank, and Israelis keep taking land. It is just adding more fuel to the fire.

Do not ignore that...

There were many troubling situations there. But the situation in Gaza was very similar to the West Bank before Israel left the place, and the minute they did, Hamas was elected, and a civil war started between Hamas and the PLO, resulting in Hamas coming to power. The most realistic possibility if Israel were to do the same thing it did in Gaza in the West Bank (that was the original plan of the Israelis) is that Hamas would rise to power there. That is not a horror movie scenario, it is the most likely realistic possibility. This is actually the reason Abu Mazen avoids conducting elections in the West Bank. He knows that Hamas would likely win.

And again, the occupation there didn't happen in a vacuum either. It occurred in '67 after all the surrounding countries prepared for war against Israel (the territory was taken from Jordan). The fundamental aspects of Palestinian society are the same in the West Bank. They are not focusing on building a nation at all.

Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC

[DawnC]

I genuinely wonder what all of you would have done if 7/10 event happened in your country from a neighboring state with Hamas type regime still holding 240 hostages. I still haven't heard any realistic course of action, besides a somewhat obsessive approach towards calling out immoral deeds done by Israel. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC

[Karmadhi]

16 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I'm sure israel is walking on eggs and tries its best not to kill civilians

Their REP literally said we would do a different approach if it was Israeli civilians instead so they are not doing their best at all. If they said: "Yes we would kill them the same because there is no other solution" then I would believe that there is no other way. But there is

Also do you realize that these policies will create a new Hamas, probably more ruthless than the old one. To kill 1 Hamas person, they efficectvly laid the seeds for multiple new Hamas people to rise up in time. It is like the Hydra, you cut 1 head and 3 others replace it. For their own good Israel should not do this.

Jew reputation is at its historical lowest since the 1930s and all of the Arab countries are mad at Israel. You have 2.2 million people that all lost a relative and their house. Even 1% of them becoming terrorists, you got now a new Hamas, probably more ruthless. Also most people affected are young, which makes it easier to convince them to become future terrorists. Iran, ISIS, Hesbullah, Talibans etc etc will be there to guide them to it.

How do you plan to deal with this? I am curious. I am talking for your own country's good here.

It is bad for the West also. A part of these new refugees will find their way in the West and relocated there as war refugees. When you got 2.2 milion people you are guaranteed for new terrorist acts to happen. And i am not even counting the already million of Arabs living in the West that are mad at Israel and the west.

Biden is facing a chance to loose some states just because of muslims that historically voted democrat to not vote anymore for democrats. Giving rise to Trump.

These things are not being thought through well I feel.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Karmadhi