What is Leo's main shtick really about? Psychonautics vs. Spirituality

[puporing]

@Bufo Alvarius It seems closed-minded to me that he seems really convinced about how psychedelics can work mainly based on his own experience and that it would apply the same for everyone. Maybe he simply hasn't met someone who has both gotten awakenings on it and doing the work to raise their baseline, and that the awakenings on psychedelics played a crucial role to increase consciousness sober. But then if he's already closed off to this, even if someone did show up infront of him, they might get completely dismissed.

A good lesson from this is that if you're in the "teacher role" for too long without every once in awhile rinsing yourself off to look at things afresh, it can lead to some traps.

Edited October 1, 2022 by puporing

[Space]

@Bufo Alvarius I've read this response from Ralston before. I'm still adamant on my perspective that unless you've done incrementally higher doses of synthetic 5-MeO you don't know what you're talking about with psychedelics. I don't even consider LSD or mushrooms or ayahuasca worth doing anymore. And, except for very rare cases, they will never create deep awakenings (unless you've had a true breakthrough and energy-body transformation with 5-MeO before). 

Ralston also makes the point about drugs not being direct and not being YOU.

Here's the mind-bending paradox: Ralston is right. Psychedelics cannot 'induce' Enlightenment. Yet, I came to this realisation whilst having a 5-MeO induced Enlightenment and being directly conscious of myself as Eternal Infinity. Enlightenment cannot be created by a psychedelic because how could it be?! Enlightenment is pure Infinity, it cannot be created or caused by anything else. It is completely and totally causeless. Yet a psychedelic can, at the same, cause or create this realisation.

And it is direct, there is no doubt. A true psychedelic Enlightenment is direct. There is no 'indirect Infinity' hahaha. There is no indirect ego dissolution?! Ridiculous. 

Ralston also is ignorant of the deep permanent changes to one's consciousness + the healing qualities of 5-MeO when used correctly. 5-MeO creates lasting permanent changes, unlike any other psychedelic.

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Space

[Michal__]

8 hours ago, Tahuti said:

Have you ever gone through the Jnana's? I feel like you guys neglect the concentrative aspect book based teachings have to offer? No, it is not God-Realization but It has it's Pro's..

It's not just about jhãna. 

Try to focus hundreds of hours (with like two weeks) on an elemental casina and you can acquire powers related to the element - like heat up the room by will or draw fiery  things in the air that other people can see etc.

Not God realization but still, the best way to get Harry Potter level stuff would be a mix of concentration and psychadelics.

You don't even need meditation talent just enough intensity.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Michal__

[Carl-Richard]

9 hours ago, Thought Art said:

@Carl-Richard You’ve never tripped right? Or you did rarely?

LSD 4 times. Microdosed a dozen times. More weed than could fit in a school bus.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

@puporing @Space No. Enlightenment isn't a result. The notion that a drug can produce direct consciousness is ludicrous.

That Leo thinks that enlightenment can't be "permanent" clarifies how he holds it: as some grand state –always temporal– with powerful effects on the mind induced primarily by drugs. Either it isn't clear that enlightenment is not any of that, or you're conflating "stuff" with the absolute. How could it be touched by experience?

As an analogy: How could drinking coffee within a dream wake you up? Whatever you did within the dream before waking up is irrelevant in this regard. Waking up is on you, not factors and circumstances which are all relative.

Edited October 2, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Jodistrict]

8 hours ago, Space said:

@Bufo Alvarius I've read this response from Ralston before. I'm still adamant on my perspective that unless you've done incrementally higher doses of synthetic 5-MeO you don't know what you're talking about with psychedelics. I don't even consider LSD or mushrooms or ayahuasca worth doing anymore. And, except for very rare cases, they will never create deep awakenings (unless you've had a true breakthrough and energy-body transformation with 5-MeO before). 

Ralston also makes the point about drugs not being direct and not being YOU.

Here's the mind-bending paradox: Ralston is right. Psychedelics cannot 'induce' Enlightenment. Yet, I came to this realisation whilst having a 5-MeO induced Enlightenment and being directly conscious of myself as Eternal Infinity. Enlightenment cannot be created by a psychedelic because how could it be?! Enlightenment is pure Infinity, it cannot be created or caused by anything else. It is completely and totally causeless. Yet a psychedelic can, at the same, cause or create this realisation.

And it is direct, there is no doubt. A true psychedelic Enlightenment is direct. There is no 'indirect Infinity' hahaha. There is no indirect ego dissolution?! Ridiculous. 

Ralston also is ignorant of the deep permanent changes to one's consciousness + the healing qualities of 5-MeO when used correctly. 5-MeO creates lasting permanent changes, unlike any other psychedelic.

 

Having taken alot of psychedelics, I respect Ralston’s point of view and I am willing to consider it seriously rather than being defensive and finding out reasons why it isn't true.  Ayahuasca and mushrooms keeps me trapped in my mind and there are too many visions and stories to examine the mind itself.  How much is imagination and fantasy and what is coming from deep knowledge?  Bufo Alvarius goes beyond the mind directly to the present moment and an intense awareness of my being.  However, the effect is short lived and temporary.  I haven’t tried synthetic 5-meo yet.  San Pedro connects one to the heart and doesn’t mess with your mind.  Perhaps San Pedro or Huachuma is the most useful.  A heart centered consciousness is healing.

[Leo Gura]

15 hours ago, Tahuti said:

Have you ever gone through the Jnana's? I feel like you guys neglect the concentrative aspect book based teachings have to offer? No, it is not God-Realization but It has it's Pro's..

There is value in building your concentration, but it takes emormous effort and time and does not guarantee understanding God.

14 hours ago, Star said:

Even if I am conscious enough to understand that I invented Buddha and everything else I still can't invent  consciously, it happens automatically,  I want to practise doing it, inventing I mean, more consciously

What I wanted to ask you @Leo Gura is what do you think you would hat invent if you would had stayed in this state where your IQ was 1500?

Human inventing requires manual labor. Don't expect great things to lazily fall out of the sky for you.

You want to seriously manifest something? Start a business, raise $50 million, hire 100 people to labor on it for 5 years, lead them properly towards a vision.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is value in building your concentration, but it take emormous effort and time and does not guarantee understanding.

Human inventing requires manual labor.

You still haven't ever articulated the final goal of all this, are you just wanting people to have deeper and deeper temporary peak experiences for the sake of it?

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, bambi said:

You still haven't ever articulated the final goal of all this, are you just wanting people to have deeper and deeper temporary peak experiences for the sake of it?

The final goal is to become as conscious of God as possible by whatever means allows for it.

Before you go worrying about a permanent experience, first start by at least being conscious of God for 10 minutes. Then you can worry about how to make it permanent. You don't even know what you're trying to lock in yet and whether that's even possible or appropriate.

It's like you're trying to buy a house on the moon and you haven't even been there once. My top priority is getting people to the moon because after they get there they will know the target and they will be motivated to get back there on their own.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The final goal is to become as conscious of God as possible by whatever means allows for it.

Before you go worrying about a permanent experience, first start by at least being conscious of God for 10 minutes. Then you can worry about how to make it permanent. You don't even know what you're trying to lock in yet and whether that's even possible or appropriate.

It's like you're trying to buy a house on the moon and you haven't even been there once.

But you can't even answer the question: why? 

[Nilsi]

42 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's like you're trying to buy a house on the moon and you haven't even been there once. My top priority is getting people to the moon because after they get there they will know the target and they will be motivated to get back there on their own.

I don't really get that. Maybe I haven't been to the same moon that you talk about, but to me it's not the kind of place you would ever want to buy a house on. Sure, it's one hell of a vacation and I can certainly appreciate that, but it's ultimately not a very hospitable place.

I'm actually starting to get a little pissed off with with people claiming enlightenment, because I don't know what the fuck they mean by that. Do we call someone enlightened that has had an awakening experience in the past of what, because they sure as hell ain't awake. Would be nice if you did a video or something where you directly address this issue, because I'm starting to see it myself and it's kind of unsettling to see these people make such claims that are, as far as I'm concerned, completely arbitrary.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Nilsi

[JosephKnecht]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The final goal is to become as conscious of God as possible by whatever means allows for it.

Why would God have a bias towards knowing Himself rather than forgetting Himself? 

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Then you can worry about how to make it permanent. You don't even know what you're trying to lock in yet and whether that's even possible or appropriate.

You can't make it perminant as long as you rely on substances outside 'yourself' to take you there. 

[OBEler]

@JosephKnecht you can be permanent drunk through alcohol so why not be permanent god consciousness through psychedelica

There are long lasting substances with almost Zero tolerance

[puporing]

6 hours ago, bambi said:

But you can't even answer the question: why? 

I can come up with a few:

- Healing

- Knowing for the sake of knowing

- Return to your true nature/God consciousness/Love

- Re-dream the dream

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

you can be permanent drunk through alcohol

??

[Leo Gura]

I'm not gonna talk about this any more. You're not understanding.

[caspex]

This makes sense. States Vs. Growth. 

Though Growth can mean reaching higher states and awakenings so I believe a better term would be Apex Vs. Baseline. 

But the difference isn't in which end you want to focus on. The difference is in which end the teacher is focussing on teaching. 

Picture this. We are all worms going up a hill, the peak being God. The worm uses the grip of its front end(Apex) to bring forward it's rear(Baseline) but right after that it uses the grip of its rear end(baseline) to push forwards it's front(Apex) . Ultimately moving up a centimeter. 

As you can see for any individual it is the interplay between the baseline and the apex that ultimately moves them closer to God. It doesn't matter which you focus on. Therefore Leo is correct about there being no difference in category provided by OP. It doesn't matter whether you use psychedelics or not, the one higher up the mountain is ultimately closer to God. 

However, the OP is also correct in that if we look at the categories as types of teaching rather than seeking. Leo focuses in teaching more on the part where the worm is pushing forwards using it's baseline to reach a higher apex. While other Gurus might focus on teaching the part where the worm uses it's front end to pull up it's baseline. 

[Star]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Human inventing requires manual labor. Don't expect great things to lazily fall out of the sky for you.

You want to seriously manifest something? Start a business, raise $50 million, hire 100 people to labor on it for 5 years, lead them properly towards a vision.

Thanks for responding I appreciate it.... but we see life completely differently.... I'm not interested in money  our business at all. The only thing that would interest me is to lead my students toward a vision, (I'm a school teacher), but I know very well that my students are a reflection of my own energy. It has become completely clear to me that everything there is in my life it's just symbolic and a reflection that mirrors my energy and emotions. That's why I asked you what do you think that you would had manifest if you would had stayed and this mental state of million of IQ or whatever was that that you felt. 

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Swarnim said:

Though Growth can mean reaching higher states and awakenings so I believe a better term would be Apex Vs. Baseline. 

I'm talking about a focus and approach, not about the potential benefits of either psychedelics or meditation. In psychonautics, the focus is on states > growth. In spirituality, the focus is on growth > states.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[caspex]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm talking about a focus and approach, not about the potential benefits of psychedelics. In psychonautics, the focus is on states > growth. In spirituality, the focus is on growth > states.

I am talking about focus and approach as well. Higher states = Higher Apex and More growth = higher baseline.