What is Leo's main shtick really about? Psychonautics vs. Spirituality

[Devin]

13 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Lol. Awake as in you're conscious that you're God. 

 

So, you think God can be unaware that it's god, and yet "everything" still exists. God did that to itself then right? Made itself not conscious it is god, so you think God can do that, but can't also be conscious of being god and also imagine/create this?

Edited September 30, 2022 by Devin

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Nilsi said:

Come on man, you know that kind of reductionism doesn't tell you jack shit about absolute reality.

To think that it tells you nothing is foolish.

[Nilsi]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

To think that it tells you nothing is foolish.

It tells you nothing that is relevant about the actual experience. Awakening is beyond neuroscience, that's nothing new. I love science myself, but I'd rather be honest about it's limitations.

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Devin said:

So, you think God can be unaware that it's god, and yet "everything" still exists. God did that to itself then right? Made itself not conscious it is god, so you think God can do that, but can't also be conscious of being god and also imagine/create this?

I am not awake right now, yet everything still exists. Being conscious of yourself as God is an important experience, but it's the kind of thing you'd rather forget about after the fact.

[Carl-Richard]

27 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I understand what they are saying, but that's not what awakening (or God-realisation) actually refers to.

I guess you're talking about Leo's concept of awakening, which is an infinite regress (whatever new insight he adds to the list). It's not a stably defined concept, so by definition, nothing can refer to it. However, traditional spirituality has a stable definition of awakening, and we've found a good neural correlate for it (the Default Mode Network). So this idea that "nobody is awake", is only true within Leo's paradigm.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

23 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

It tells you nothing that is relevant about the actual experience. Awakening is beyond neuroscience, that's nothing new. I love science myself, but I'd rather be honest about it's limitations.

It tells you that it's a phenomena that actually exists as opposed to somebody lying about their internal experience, claiming that they're awake when they're actually not.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Nilsi]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I guess you're talking about Leo's concept of awakening, which is an infinite regress (whatever new insight he adds to the list). It's not a stably defined concept, so by definition, nothing can refer to it. However, traditional spirituality defines awakening as a stable thing (or more stable than not), and we've found a good neural correlate for it (the Default Mode Network). So this idea that "nobody is awake", is only true within Leo's paradigm.

It's not "Leo's concept," it's the proper use of the word awakening and it's also not an infinite regress.They are probably talking about some kind of no-mind state or whatever, which sure you can meassure, but that's not awakening.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Nilsi said:

It's not "Leo's concept," it's the proper use of the word awakening and it's also not an infinite regress.They are probably talking about some kind of no-mind state or whatever, which sure you can meassure, but that's not awakening.

What is awakening then?

[Nilsi]

9 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It tells you that it's a phenomena that actually exists as opposed to somebody lying about their internal experience, claiming that they're awake when they're actually not.

I don't see anybody claiming awakening (if so, it's bs). 

 

[Nilsi]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What is awakening then?

It's game-over. The bitter pill to swallow here is that ultimately there is only one consciousness that can be awake unto itself.

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

I don't see anybody claiming awakening (if so, it's bs). 

Most spiritual teachers claim that they at one time experienced a drastic spiritual change in their life, and it's implicit in all of their work.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Nilsi said:

It's game-over. The bitter pill to swallow here is that ultimately there is only one consciousness that can be awake unto itself.

That is the spiritual change I'm talking about.

[Nilsi]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

Most spiritual teachers claim that they at one time experienced a drastic spiritual change in their life, and it's implicit in all of their work.

Dude, this is beyond reason and logic. You can not point to any other when it comes to awakening.

[axiom]

3 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

consciousness

Consciousness is only a story.

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

Dude, this is beyond reason and logic. You can not point to any other when it comes to awakening.

Yes you can. If you can teach it, you can point to another.

[Nilsi]

Just now, axiom said:

Consciousness is only a story.

All of language is just a story, so what? It's still a good pointer. 

[Nilsi]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

Yes you can. If you can teach it, you can point to another.

You can not teach it, obviously. All you can do is leave some clues and reminders. 

I know this is silly and I hate sounding like Leo (no offense), but it's just what it is.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Nilsi said:

You can not teach it, obviously. All you can do is leave some clues and reminders. 

I know this is silly and I hate sounding like Leo (no offense), but it's just what it is.

You're not sounding like Leo. You're sounding like every spiritual teacher. You're teaching right now.

[Nilsi]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

You're not sounding like Leo. You're sounding like every spiritual teacher. You're teaching right now.

I'm just dicking around. I'm not so foolish as to believe there is anyone to teach this to.

[Carl-Richard]

7 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I'm just dicking around. I'm not so foolish as to believe there is anyone to teach this to.

I think awakening is well-defined, and that you can follow the pointers that teachers throw at you, and that you can experience great results by doing so. So on the contrary, I believe that there is someone to teach this to: someone who has not yet seen the pointers and who is interested in following them.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Carl-Richard